Creative pro-choice message
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Emcee Lam wrote: That is not relevant. It's probably not key, but it's worth asking. A 12 year old girl gets raped, and you force her to have the baby. Do you think that baby will be properly cared for, and loved ? Will you be glad of the decision when that child is beating up your grandkids in school ? When he breaks into your house, or steals your car ? How about the life of the mother ? Is it irrelevant to you if she die of complications after having a back yard abortion ? Emcee Lam wrote: To continue to push for these issues implies the statement No, what it implies is that the mother has rights. Emcee Lam wrote: If you remember, this statement was used as justification for putting mentally ill people out of their misery. ARGH !!!! More emotional arguments. Can anyone argue this based on logic, or reason ? I remain against abortion, and I also remain eminently capable of proving to those who would ban abortion that the issue is not that simple. I am horrified that anyone would abort a child beyond the first trimester, but I also continue to believe that abortion is necessary in some cases for the sake of both mother and child. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: How about the life of the mother ? This is the only relevant thing for anyone to be arguing about at this stage. There is no baby, there is no fetous, there is only a collection of cells. In your scenario the 12 year old is completely fucked up in the head. More than likely has never had sex and didn't even contemplate having it yet. Then she is beaten and fucked. Mentally and physically she is a mess. Years to fix that alone. Now comes along Mr Moral Majority who says, 'Hey, guess what? You get to carry the baby for 9 months and give birth to it.'. I wish he got to undergo a large dose of Boola-Boola from cousins all named Bubba. Then I would like a large watermelon be inserted into his body. Then 9 months later he has to pass it through his arsehole. I told you I have fucked up thoughts on stuff like this. Personally I would settle for a set of leather gloves and beat the shit out of him for hours like in one of the Dirty Harry movies. Then a case of progressive circumcision using a potato peeler. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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Christian Graus wrote: Emcee Lam wrote: By saying that some people have more a right to live than others implies different classes of people. There goes the emotional argument again. It's not an emotional based argument. It's a rule based argument. One either accepts or rejects the rule. If you accept the rule, then a class of lesser humans is created. If you reject the rule, then you declare that all humans have a right to live. Christian Graus wrote: Emcee Lam wrote: Those that are happy and are capable of contributing to society deserve to live. Those that are burdensome to society deserve to die. ARGH AGAIN !!! I said NOTHING like that. If you want to discuss something with me, please don't put words in my mouth to add strength to your argument. I'm sorry, but adding economics and convenience to this discussion does imply that some people have more of a right to live than others. I understand it's not your intention to designate a lesser human class, but that is what you have done. Human life is human life. Every human life no matter its state is worthy of living. The question centers around whether the fetus is human life or not. Whether an individual grows up in poverty or prosperity does not matter, all humans have a right to live. Christian Graus wrote: Emcee Lam wrote: If the fetus has the same rights as a baby, then abortion is equivalent to infanticide. Could you answer me a couple of questions. 1. At what point does the mother have no rights ? 2. Your logic can easily be extended to my sperm. Should I go to jail for all the whacking off I did as a teenager ? 3. How about women for having periods ? 1. One human can not take the life of another human. If the fetus is human, then the mother is disallowed from taking the life of the fetus. 2,3. The question centers around what is human life. No one believes that sperm and egg by themselves are human life. Because they're not human life, the individual sperm and egg have no rights. Christian Graus wrote: It's just silly. A group of cells that has no shape is not a human being, and while abortion remains personally abhorent, I don't think it's a sitation for legislation. Seeing as you're big on the emotional argument, what's *your* response to my (non-hypothetical BTW) 12 year old who has been raped ? Whether a fetus is human, is not a question for which I have answered. I choose not to pro
Emcee Lam wrote: It's not an emotional based argument. Yes it is, because *I* *did* *not* *say* *that*. Emcee Lam wrote: adding economics and convenience to this discussion My core argument, which you're yet to address, is the rights of the mother. Emcee Lam wrote: I choose not to provide an answer to that question, for now. Your position is clear based on your arguments. Emcee Lam wrote: Abortion is not a cure all. You must be joking. Emcee Lam wrote: The physical intrusion of rape is repeated once again in the abortion procedure. You're still joking, surely ? You can make that decision on behalf of my 12 year old daughter and enshrine it in law ? Emcee Lam wrote: Rather than being a method of alleviating the emotional distress of rape, the abortion could very well be an amplification of emotional distress. This is the biggest pile of crap I have ever heard. You have the right to make these airy fairy judgements, on behalf of a girl who you would condemn to spending the rest of her life seeing her attackers features in the child she is forced to raise ? You need to wake up and smell the coffee. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Christian Graus wrote: ( I know, I have two, and I admit since having them I come close to crying if I hear/see something about kids being harmed ) I actually scare myself at times with the abject anger, hatred and thoughts I have of what I would do to them if I caught them. The scariest part is I know I would snap and do it, without thought or reasoning of 'I have kids now and need to be responsible'. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
I know what you mean. Being able to forgive is a pretty central tenet of my life, and I honestly don't know how I would manage it if my children came to harm. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Christian Graus wrote: How about the life of the mother ? This is the only relevant thing for anyone to be arguing about at this stage. There is no baby, there is no fetous, there is only a collection of cells. In your scenario the 12 year old is completely fucked up in the head. More than likely has never had sex and didn't even contemplate having it yet. Then she is beaten and fucked. Mentally and physically she is a mess. Years to fix that alone. Now comes along Mr Moral Majority who says, 'Hey, guess what? You get to carry the baby for 9 months and give birth to it.'. I wish he got to undergo a large dose of Boola-Boola from cousins all named Bubba. Then I would like a large watermelon be inserted into his body. Then 9 months later he has to pass it through his arsehole. I told you I have fucked up thoughts on stuff like this. Personally I would settle for a set of leather gloves and beat the shit out of him for hours like in one of the Dirty Harry movies. Then a case of progressive circumcision using a potato peeler. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
Michael Martin wrote: Years to fix that alone. Yes, exactly. In this case, SHE is the child who has come to harm. Why compound it ? BTW this example is real, it happened in Ireland in the 80's ( although I may have the age wrong ). The girl was ostracised by half the country and had to go to England to get an abortion. She found going home unviable with the vitriol being poured on her. How the HELL could those people judge her, or even try to understand what she was going through ? Michael Martin wrote: I told you I have f***ed up thoughts on stuff like this. While I'm not sure I would have worded it the same way, I certainly agree with you. Nothing annoys me more than people in glass houses telling people suffer for what they think is right. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Jason Henderson wrote: So we should allow one crime to attempt to cover up another? Your a fuckwit. Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
If I'm one then so is half of the rest of the world who opposes abortion. I realize that it would be difficult for a young girl, but 9 months is not a long time. They may not understand at a young age, but wouldn't it be better to not destroy the baby? It won't ruin their lives to have the baby then give it to the state. If it means I'm a f***wit thinking this way then so be it. I'll defend the lives of children any day.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism * -
Emcee Lam wrote: It's not an emotional based argument. Yes it is, because *I* *did* *not* *say* *that*. Emcee Lam wrote: adding economics and convenience to this discussion My core argument, which you're yet to address, is the rights of the mother. Emcee Lam wrote: I choose not to provide an answer to that question, for now. Your position is clear based on your arguments. Emcee Lam wrote: Abortion is not a cure all. You must be joking. Emcee Lam wrote: The physical intrusion of rape is repeated once again in the abortion procedure. You're still joking, surely ? You can make that decision on behalf of my 12 year old daughter and enshrine it in law ? Emcee Lam wrote: Rather than being a method of alleviating the emotional distress of rape, the abortion could very well be an amplification of emotional distress. This is the biggest pile of crap I have ever heard. You have the right to make these airy fairy judgements, on behalf of a girl who you would condemn to spending the rest of her life seeing her attackers features in the child she is forced to raise ? You need to wake up and smell the coffee. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: My core argument, which you're yet to address, is the rights of the mother. What you call your core argument is not your core argument. This is merely an extension of your original judgement that the fetus is not human. From this, you generate all your other statements. If the fetus is not human, then the mother has complete authority to do what she wishes with the fetus. The reason why you are frustrated in speaking with pro-life supporters is because you take it as a general truth that the fetus is not a human life. You speak of every extended issue, but you miss the original question of whether the fetus is human. That original question will resolve all the other questions. Christian Graus wrote: Emcee Lam wrote: Rather than being a method of alleviating the emotional distress of rape, the abortion could very well be an amplification of emotional distress. This is the biggest pile of crap I have ever heard. You have the right to make these airy fairy judgements, on behalf of a girl who you would condemn to spending the rest of her life seeing her attackers features in the child she is forced to raise ? You need to wake up and smell the coffee. No, this is quite plausible what I have said, and it has happened. Not every rape victim believes that the fetus is just a pile of cells. Rape victims who believe the fetus to be a human life will suffer additional distress if the fetus is aborted.
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Christian Graus wrote: My core argument, which you're yet to address, is the rights of the mother. What you call your core argument is not your core argument. This is merely an extension of your original judgement that the fetus is not human. From this, you generate all your other statements. If the fetus is not human, then the mother has complete authority to do what she wishes with the fetus. The reason why you are frustrated in speaking with pro-life supporters is because you take it as a general truth that the fetus is not a human life. You speak of every extended issue, but you miss the original question of whether the fetus is human. That original question will resolve all the other questions. Christian Graus wrote: Emcee Lam wrote: Rather than being a method of alleviating the emotional distress of rape, the abortion could very well be an amplification of emotional distress. This is the biggest pile of crap I have ever heard. You have the right to make these airy fairy judgements, on behalf of a girl who you would condemn to spending the rest of her life seeing her attackers features in the child she is forced to raise ? You need to wake up and smell the coffee. No, this is quite plausible what I have said, and it has happened. Not every rape victim believes that the fetus is just a pile of cells. Rape victims who believe the fetus to be a human life will suffer additional distress if the fetus is aborted.
Emcee Lam wrote: This is merely an extension of your original judgement that the fetus is not human. Goodness me. I'm sorry, but I never said that. I said that in the first weeks of conception that is arguably the case. Emcee Lam wrote: The reason why you are frustrated in speaking with pro-life supporters Is that they are to a person too stupid to even consider the logical facts I place before them. I am ANTI-abortion, I simply question your right to tell other people what to do, and when I speak of a child who is raped ( it really happened BTW ), and you come back with the waffle you came back last time, it's easy to see that you have no ability to see things from the POV of people who live in the real world. Emcee Lam wrote: Not every rape victim believes that the fetus is just a pile of cells. This is SO frustrating. All I am saying is that the mother have the right to choose. You want to take that right away by legislation. you can't answer my question, obviously. Would you really look a 12 year old pregnant girl who has been beaten and raped in the eye and tell her that because 'not every rape victim' blah blah blah, that gives you the right to legislate so EVERY rape victim must have the child ? I'm talking freedom of choice, you're talking telling people who have suffered enough that they must suffer more because of your opinions. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Emcee Lam wrote: This is merely an extension of your original judgement that the fetus is not human. Goodness me. I'm sorry, but I never said that. I said that in the first weeks of conception that is arguably the case. Emcee Lam wrote: The reason why you are frustrated in speaking with pro-life supporters Is that they are to a person too stupid to even consider the logical facts I place before them. I am ANTI-abortion, I simply question your right to tell other people what to do, and when I speak of a child who is raped ( it really happened BTW ), and you come back with the waffle you came back last time, it's easy to see that you have no ability to see things from the POV of people who live in the real world. Emcee Lam wrote: Not every rape victim believes that the fetus is just a pile of cells. This is SO frustrating. All I am saying is that the mother have the right to choose. You want to take that right away by legislation. you can't answer my question, obviously. Would you really look a 12 year old pregnant girl who has been beaten and raped in the eye and tell her that because 'not every rape victim' blah blah blah, that gives you the right to legislate so EVERY rape victim must have the child ? I'm talking freedom of choice, you're talking telling people who have suffered enough that they must suffer more because of your opinions. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: This is SO frustrating. All I am saying is that the mother have the right to choose. Then so be it. In this current age, the mother must choose. But if the mother chooses, let the mother struggle with the question of whether the fetus is human or not. A mother should be equipped with all information so as to choose between yay or nay. A mother should be aware that if the fetus is human, then there are grave consequences. If the fetus is not human, then one can live in peace. What can not be allowed is a decision based on no thinking. A mother must learn the reasoning behind the pro and the anti. There is intellectual thinking for and against. This must be digested and a decision made. Failure to make an informed decision could result in great distress later. A woman with an abortion may later conclude she aborted a human. This can result in imaginations of the what-if appearance of her baby if the baby wasn't aborted. A woman can be haunted by images of yearly changes in height of an imaginary what-if child. Do you think I am making this up? I am not. Women of regret do exist, and they can tell stories of their post-abortion distress. Not all women are happy customers, and any woman considering abortion should know about the stories of unhappy customers. Even though we disagree on many points, I hope that we can at least agree on the notion of the informed decision. Christian Graus wrote: You want to take that right away by legislation. This current political climate is unacceptable for legislating away abortion, and I will hold my tongue on this topic.
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Christian Graus wrote: This is SO frustrating. All I am saying is that the mother have the right to choose. Then so be it. In this current age, the mother must choose. But if the mother chooses, let the mother struggle with the question of whether the fetus is human or not. A mother should be equipped with all information so as to choose between yay or nay. A mother should be aware that if the fetus is human, then there are grave consequences. If the fetus is not human, then one can live in peace. What can not be allowed is a decision based on no thinking. A mother must learn the reasoning behind the pro and the anti. There is intellectual thinking for and against. This must be digested and a decision made. Failure to make an informed decision could result in great distress later. A woman with an abortion may later conclude she aborted a human. This can result in imaginations of the what-if appearance of her baby if the baby wasn't aborted. A woman can be haunted by images of yearly changes in height of an imaginary what-if child. Do you think I am making this up? I am not. Women of regret do exist, and they can tell stories of their post-abortion distress. Not all women are happy customers, and any woman considering abortion should know about the stories of unhappy customers. Even though we disagree on many points, I hope that we can at least agree on the notion of the informed decision. Christian Graus wrote: You want to take that right away by legislation. This current political climate is unacceptable for legislating away abortion, and I will hold my tongue on this topic.
Emcee Lam wrote: In this current age, the mother must choose. That is my point, why do you deny her that right ? Emcee Lam wrote: But if the mother chooses, let the mother struggle with the question of whether the fetus is human or not. I am TOTALLY against abortion as a form of contraceptive. My first wife left me for my best friend, found she was pregnant and had an abortion. If I'd found out about it before hand I would have considered taking steps to ensure the baby was not mine, or taken it if it was. BUT there are cases where I believe it is the only humane option for the sake of the mother. You've failed to address a concrete example which I have raised with anything more than meaningless generalities. Emcee Lam wrote: This must be digested and a decision made. I don't disagree at all. In fact I regard this as an about face from 'abortion should not be allowed even for rape victims because some women feel bad about it afterwards'. Emcee Lam wrote: A woman with an abortion may later conclude she aborted a human. Goodness me, what else could she have aborted ? Emcee Lam wrote: Women of regret do exist, and they can tell stories of their post-abortion distress. Not all women are happy customers, and any woman considering abortion should know about the stories of unhappy customers. I am sure this is the case. My wife and I lost a child 'naturally', and we still often think about how old it would have been, etc. Emcee Lam wrote: Even though we disagree on many points, I hope that we can at least agree on the notion of the informed decision. Yes, if you'd said that in the first case, I would have agreed with you. Emcee Lam wrote: This current political climate is unacceptable for legislating away abortion Thank goodness. I would urge you before you next head out to campain on this topic that you stop and ask yourself on what basis you have the right to dictate the views of others, and perhaps even consider that the 12 year old for which you had no meaningful reply was a real person whose life was ruined twice, once in the attack, and once in the public vitriol poured on her by the population of Ireland because she did not want to bear her attackers child. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB de
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Emcee Lam wrote: In this current age, the mother must choose. That is my point, why do you deny her that right ? Emcee Lam wrote: But if the mother chooses, let the mother struggle with the question of whether the fetus is human or not. I am TOTALLY against abortion as a form of contraceptive. My first wife left me for my best friend, found she was pregnant and had an abortion. If I'd found out about it before hand I would have considered taking steps to ensure the baby was not mine, or taken it if it was. BUT there are cases where I believe it is the only humane option for the sake of the mother. You've failed to address a concrete example which I have raised with anything more than meaningless generalities. Emcee Lam wrote: This must be digested and a decision made. I don't disagree at all. In fact I regard this as an about face from 'abortion should not be allowed even for rape victims because some women feel bad about it afterwards'. Emcee Lam wrote: A woman with an abortion may later conclude she aborted a human. Goodness me, what else could she have aborted ? Emcee Lam wrote: Women of regret do exist, and they can tell stories of their post-abortion distress. Not all women are happy customers, and any woman considering abortion should know about the stories of unhappy customers. I am sure this is the case. My wife and I lost a child 'naturally', and we still often think about how old it would have been, etc. Emcee Lam wrote: Even though we disagree on many points, I hope that we can at least agree on the notion of the informed decision. Yes, if you'd said that in the first case, I would have agreed with you. Emcee Lam wrote: This current political climate is unacceptable for legislating away abortion Thank goodness. I would urge you before you next head out to campain on this topic that you stop and ask yourself on what basis you have the right to dictate the views of others, and perhaps even consider that the 12 year old for which you had no meaningful reply was a real person whose life was ruined twice, once in the attack, and once in the public vitriol poured on her by the population of Ireland because she did not want to bear her attackers child. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB de
Christian Graus wrote: Emcee Lam wrote: This must be digested and a decision made. I don't disagree at all. In fact I regard this as an about face from 'abortion should not be allowed even for rape victims because some women feel bad about it afterwards'. I'm glad we could agree on the informed decision. I'm hardly making an about face. I spoke only of morality rules. Now whether morality rules should generate prohibition is a different question. I currently do not advocate prohibition. I only advocate an informed decision that takes into account a full moral reasoning. The reasoning process will instruct the mother as to what should and should not be done. You must forgive me if I was not very clear about this in my earlier statements. I'm sorry I didn't answer your questions in the way you expected. I have no interest in getting involved with very sensitive scenarios. Such scenarios should be approached with great respect. They can easily become very heated, and that is something I wish to avoid. I see that you have spent much time thinking about this subject, and I respect your thinking. Your experiences have taught you many things and I'm glad you shared them. Though we may have some disagreements, I would hope we could respect each other.