Ukraine gas row hits EU supplies
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Ed Gadziemski wrote:
They preach free market economics, but when Russia asks market rates for gas, the preachers dislike the result.
They [the EU] are paying market rates. The Ukraine is not part of the EU. ColinMackay.net "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in." -- Confucius "If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away from him, for an investment in knowledge pays the best interest." -- Joseph E. O'Donnell
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
They [the EU] are paying market rates.
Actually, they currently pay about 1/2 market rate: In late 2005, Gazprom said it charged its customers in Western Europe an average of $135 per 1,000 cubic meters, but expected that figure to rise to about $255 this year.[^]
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
The Ukraine is not part of the EU.
I never said it was.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Yep, that's one you have to give to the French.
So, is it still "Freedom Fries" or can we call it "French Fries" once again (over the objections of the Belgians)?
I wouldn't know - I'm an onion rings kind of guy. "Patriotism is the first refuge of a patriot."
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K(arl) wrote:
Isn't UK self sufficient in gas and oil with the resources in North Sea?
In addition to Robert's reply. It is estimated that within 10 years that a significant proportion of our gas consumption will be from Russia. In the last year or two Tony Blair signed a deal with the Russians to begin building a high capacity pipeline in order to supply the UK.
K(arl) wrote:
It is more than time that the EU invests a lot in R&D to search for new energy sources
Absolutely, even existing technologies can be put to good use. The building regulations could easily be changed to require that all new builds get solar panels or small wind turbines, etc. And grants could be given to people to add these to existing houses. ColinMackay.net "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in." -- Confucius "If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away from him, for an investment in knowledge pays the best interest." -- Joseph E. O'Donnell
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
And grants could be given to people to add these to existing houses
The EST* do give 50% grants for installing solar, wind or geological energy systems in small scale residential installations, but with the costs as high as they are 50% is still a lot of money to pay. I seriously looked into getting a grant for solar energy myself, and worked out that it would take me 13 years to repay the cost of the system based on current energy prices doubling every 2 years. :( * might be England and Wales only They should: - Offer local community projects, where both the national and local government will susbsidise about a project, and the local community/business/etc fund the rest. The energy then goes back into the local grid and a small reduction is given to all the consumers in that area (it would probably work out at few pounds a year with a decent sized system). - Offer home owners deferred payment on renewable energy systems. So I could add a system to my house that would be 100% paid for by the government through some national scheme, but 100% of the cost would be secured against my house so when I sell it the government gets their money back (and I get the benefit of the increased value of my house). - Offer financial benefits for using renewable energy, such as lower council tax. If they could do all three of those then renewable energy would be a serious option for everyone.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
And grants could be given to people to add these to existing houses
The EST* do give 50% grants for installing solar, wind or geological energy systems in small scale residential installations, but with the costs as high as they are 50% is still a lot of money to pay. I seriously looked into getting a grant for solar energy myself, and worked out that it would take me 13 years to repay the cost of the system based on current energy prices doubling every 2 years. :( * might be England and Wales only They should: - Offer local community projects, where both the national and local government will susbsidise about a project, and the local community/business/etc fund the rest. The energy then goes back into the local grid and a small reduction is given to all the consumers in that area (it would probably work out at few pounds a year with a decent sized system). - Offer home owners deferred payment on renewable energy systems. So I could add a system to my house that would be 100% paid for by the government through some national scheme, but 100% of the cost would be secured against my house so when I sell it the government gets their money back (and I get the benefit of the increased value of my house). - Offer financial benefits for using renewable energy, such as lower council tax. If they could do all three of those then renewable energy would be a serious option for everyone.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
David Wulff wrote:
The EST* do give 50% grants for installing solar, wind or geological energy systems in small scale residential installations
IIRC, That scheme exprired at the end of 2005. There is a replacement scheme in the works, but I remember a report critisising the goverment for not joining it up with the old scheme, so at the moment there is nothing like this available. I like your options - but I don't think that miserable b*****d Gordon Brown would buy it. He'd lose too much tax revenue from people's energy consumption. ColinMackay.net "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in." -- Confucius "If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away from him, for an investment in knowledge pays the best interest." -- Joseph E. O'Donnell
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Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
They [the EU] are paying market rates.
Actually, they currently pay about 1/2 market rate: In late 2005, Gazprom said it charged its customers in Western Europe an average of $135 per 1,000 cubic meters, but expected that figure to rise to about $255 this year.[^]
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
The Ukraine is not part of the EU.
I never said it was.
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
In late 2005, Gazprom said it charged its customers in Western Europe an average of $135 per 1,000 cubic meters, but expected that figure to rise to about $255 this year.
According to other articles I've seen the EU charge was an average of $240. The article also contradicts itself by stating: Moscow says that's in line with the average $240 paid for Russian gas in the European Union
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
I never said it was.
I had assumed, based on your other comment, that you thought that the Ukraine was part of the EU as it didn't make any sense otherwise. ColinMackay.net "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in." -- Confucius "If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away from him, for an investment in knowledge pays the best interest." -- Joseph E. O'Donnell
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David Wulff wrote:
The EST* do give 50% grants for installing solar, wind or geological energy systems in small scale residential installations
IIRC, That scheme exprired at the end of 2005. There is a replacement scheme in the works, but I remember a report critisising the goverment for not joining it up with the old scheme, so at the moment there is nothing like this available. I like your options - but I don't think that miserable b*****d Gordon Brown would buy it. He'd lose too much tax revenue from people's energy consumption. ColinMackay.net "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in." -- Confucius "If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away from him, for an investment in knowledge pays the best interest." -- Joseph E. O'Donnell
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
IIRC, That scheme exprired at the end of 2005
Yeah you are right, I am still in 2005 even if the rest of the world has moved on a year. :rolleyes:
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
I don't think Gordon Brown would buy it. He'd lose too much tax revenue from people's energy consumption.
I wonder how long until he realises he can tax tax...
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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Ed Gadziemski wrote:
In late 2005, Gazprom said it charged its customers in Western Europe an average of $135 per 1,000 cubic meters, but expected that figure to rise to about $255 this year.
According to other articles I've seen the EU charge was an average of $240. The article also contradicts itself by stating: Moscow says that's in line with the average $240 paid for Russian gas in the European Union
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
I never said it was.
I had assumed, based on your other comment, that you thought that the Ukraine was part of the EU as it didn't make any sense otherwise. ColinMackay.net "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in." -- Confucius "If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away from him, for an investment in knowledge pays the best interest." -- Joseph E. O'Donnell
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
According to other articles I've seen the EU charge was an average of $240.
I can't find an article I read yesterday that listed the 2005 rates charged to each EU country, but it was something like $80 to $180. Russia is now increasing the 2006 rates to an average $240.
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
I had assumed, based on your other comment, that you thought that the Ukraine was part of the EU as it didn't make any sense otherwise.
I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to, but my main point was that the EU and the US have been nagging Russia for several years to raise gas prices. The EU wanted this in order to protect domestic producers. Now that Russia is trying to riase prices, the EU and the US are criticizing them. The criticism may be well justified, but sometimes in life, you get what you ask for, and what you asked for may have unintended consequences.
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Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
According to other articles I've seen the EU charge was an average of $240.
I can't find an article I read yesterday that listed the 2005 rates charged to each EU country, but it was something like $80 to $180. Russia is now increasing the 2006 rates to an average $240.
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
I had assumed, based on your other comment, that you thought that the Ukraine was part of the EU as it didn't make any sense otherwise.
I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to, but my main point was that the EU and the US have been nagging Russia for several years to raise gas prices. The EU wanted this in order to protect domestic producers. Now that Russia is trying to riase prices, the EU and the US are criticizing them. The criticism may be well justified, but sometimes in life, you get what you ask for, and what you asked for may have unintended consequences.
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
Now that Russia is trying to riase prices, the EU and the US are criticizing them. The criticism may be well justified, but sometimes in life, you get what you ask for, and what you asked for may have unintended consequences.
I wasn't aware that the EU or US were critisising Russia for charging market rates in general, just the abrupt change in rates to the Ukraine. However, it is a free market, and the Ukraine can also charge what ever it wants for transporting the gas beyond its borders. However, this political maneuvaring has sparked some panic on the part of EU polititians with regard to the fact that many countries already import a significant amount of gas from Russia and in 10 years they will be the dominant supplier across just about every EU country. Hopefully, it will drive home the message that we need a diversified supply of fuel. ColinMackay.net "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in." -- Confucius "If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away from him, for an investment in knowledge pays the best interest." -- Joseph E. O'Donnell
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Ed Gadziemski wrote:
Now that Russia is trying to riase prices, the EU and the US are criticizing them. The criticism may be well justified, but sometimes in life, you get what you ask for, and what you asked for may have unintended consequences.
I wasn't aware that the EU or US were critisising Russia for charging market rates in general, just the abrupt change in rates to the Ukraine. However, it is a free market, and the Ukraine can also charge what ever it wants for transporting the gas beyond its borders. However, this political maneuvaring has sparked some panic on the part of EU polititians with regard to the fact that many countries already import a significant amount of gas from Russia and in 10 years they will be the dominant supplier across just about every EU country. Hopefully, it will drive home the message that we need a diversified supply of fuel. ColinMackay.net "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in." -- Confucius "If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away from him, for an investment in knowledge pays the best interest." -- Joseph E. O'Donnell
I think some of the concern also comes from the fact that more Moscow-friendly eastern bloc states (Belarus) are still being charged lower rates. The rate increase has been applied to a country more eu-friendly thus intimating the possibility/probability (delete as per your own opinion) that Russia is using piped Gas prices to try to control and manipulate the behaviour and policy of ex eastern bloc countries. GAZPROM'S 2006 TARIFFS PER 1,000 CUBIC METRES OF GAS Ukraine: US$230 Belarus: US$47 Armenia and Georgia: US$110 Romania: US$280 Source[^] Rhys In the 60s, people took acid to make the world weird. Now the world is weird and people take Prozac to make it normal.
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- Russia wants to destabilize Ukraine's economy 3 months before parliamentary elections...It doesn't accept that Ukraine tries to leave its sphere of influence. - Isn't UK self sufficient in gas and oil with the resources in North Sea?
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
Energy and the new world power play [^]
It is more than time that the EU invests a lot in R&D to search for new energy sources. We need to be independent regarding our energy needs, or we will put our destiny into somebody else's hands.
Oh Terre de détresse Où nous devons sans cesse Piocher Piocher Fold with us! ¤ flickr
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Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
And grants could be given to people to add these to existing houses
The EST* do give 50% grants for installing solar, wind or geological energy systems in small scale residential installations, but with the costs as high as they are 50% is still a lot of money to pay. I seriously looked into getting a grant for solar energy myself, and worked out that it would take me 13 years to repay the cost of the system based on current energy prices doubling every 2 years. :( * might be England and Wales only They should: - Offer local community projects, where both the national and local government will susbsidise about a project, and the local community/business/etc fund the rest. The energy then goes back into the local grid and a small reduction is given to all the consumers in that area (it would probably work out at few pounds a year with a decent sized system). - Offer home owners deferred payment on renewable energy systems. So I could add a system to my house that would be 100% paid for by the government through some national scheme, but 100% of the cost would be secured against my house so when I sell it the government gets their money back (and I get the benefit of the increased value of my house). - Offer financial benefits for using renewable energy, such as lower council tax. If they could do all three of those then renewable energy would be a serious option for everyone.
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler :: flickr Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
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modified on Friday, September 11, 2009 5:17 AM