'Honor killings' on rise in Europe
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kgaddy wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I’m sensing you post is meant to show that this is not isolated to Islam.
True, but as Stan has pointed out, there are many people who believe the religious implications of investigating child abuse means that you must ALWAYS allow the child to die because the family has religious and moral precidence, even in abuse and rape, over any interference in family order. That is a growing change even here. That family should always, always, have precident even in abuse and rape of the children. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
True, but as Stan has pointed out, there are many people who believe the religious implications of investigating child abuse means that you must ALWAYS allow the child to die because the family has religious and moral precidence, even in abuse and rape, over any interference in family order. That is a growing change even here. That family should always, always, have precident even in abuse and rape of the children.
I see, but this is not close to being the same as you example because this woman was an adult with a child. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking" Adnan Siddiqi wrote: don`t try to be clever ass wid me while you can`t..
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kgaddy wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I’m sensing you post is meant to show that this is not isolated to Islam.
True, but as Stan has pointed out, there are many people who believe the religious implications of investigating child abuse means that you must ALWAYS allow the child to die because the family has religious and moral precidence, even in abuse and rape, over any interference in family order. That is a growing change even here. That family should always, always, have precident even in abuse and rape of the children. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
True, but as Stan has pointed out, there are many people who believe the religious implications of investigating child abuse means that you must ALWAYS allow the child to die because the family has religious and moral precidence, even in abuse and rape, over any interference in family order.
What? When have I ever said any such thing? :confused: Are you really so incredible paranoid about your own culture that they thought of not having massive government suppression of religion results in some epidimic of religious based child murdering? Give me a break. There simply is no parallel in our society to the notion of 'honor' killings as they occur in the middle east. To even suggest it is silly and indicates precisely how tenuously your own world view is rooted in reality. As sad as child molestation, rape, etc is, it certainly is not a general or accepted characteristic of western culture. And to what ever extent it is is a result of a general abandonment of our traditional values and not because we have yet to fully escape them. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself" -- modified at 17:04 Monday 16th January, 2006
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
True, but as Stan has pointed out, there are many people who believe the religious implications of investigating child abuse means that you must ALWAYS allow the child to die because the family has religious and moral precidence, even in abuse and rape, over any interference in family order.
What? When have I ever said any such thing? :confused: Are you really so incredible paranoid about your own culture that they thought of not having massive government suppression of religion results in some epidimic of religious based child murdering? Give me a break. There simply is no parallel in our society to the notion of 'honor' killings as they occur in the middle east. To even suggest it is silly and indicates precisely how tenuously your own world view is rooted in reality. As sad as child molestation, rape, etc is, it certainly is not a general or accepted characteristic of western culture. And to what ever extent it is is a result of a general abandonment of our traditional values and not because we have yet to fully escape them. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself" -- modified at 17:04 Monday 16th January, 2006
Stan Shannon wrote:
What? When have I ever said any such thing?
You said that all investigations of child abuse should be abandonded, I believe followed up with the point that the people would eventually kill themselves all off and no more problems. Unfortunately that is about as bad a situation as a government entity given free run without judicial or jury over-view. Although most reports of abuse do not have sufficient evidence of continued review (2,800,000 annual reports), still 800,000 to 1,200,000 do check out. Most have to be dropped for funding, so ignoring it simply increases problems rather than investigation. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
True, but as Stan has pointed out, there are many people who believe the religious implications of investigating child abuse means that you must ALWAYS allow the child to die because the family has religious and moral precidence, even in abuse and rape, over any interference in family order. That is a growing change even here. That family should always, always, have precident even in abuse and rape of the children.
I see, but this is not close to being the same as you example because this woman was an adult with a child. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking" Adnan Siddiqi wrote: don`t try to be clever ass wid me while you can`t..
kgaddy wrote:
I see, but this is not close to being the same as you example because this woman was an adult with a child.
Perhaps, but we have also had a gentleman here kill his wife because she asked for a divorce. The minister (who is also well known for burning books here) defended his member that he did the lessor crime. Had he allowed her to live, the sin would have continued endlessly. By killing his wife, the minister countered, the sin was single and over quickly. All sins being equal in the eyes of God, a single murder was less sinful than continued adultery caused by divorce. He is a rare exception in the world of Christianity, though he is not alone, and worse his following grew after getting a shaking of a hand and congradulations by a political figure who had no idea who he was, what he did, or even care. It is religious extremism of any religion, Islam or any that is dangerous. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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kgaddy wrote:
I see, but this is not close to being the same as you example because this woman was an adult with a child.
Perhaps, but we have also had a gentleman here kill his wife because she asked for a divorce. The minister (who is also well known for burning books here) defended his member that he did the lessor crime. Had he allowed her to live, the sin would have continued endlessly. By killing his wife, the minister countered, the sin was single and over quickly. All sins being equal in the eyes of God, a single murder was less sinful than continued adultery caused by divorce. He is a rare exception in the world of Christianity, though he is not alone, and worse his following grew after getting a shaking of a hand and congradulations by a political figure who had no idea who he was, what he did, or even care. It is religious extremism of any religion, Islam or any that is dangerous. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
He is a rare exception in the world of Christianity
Yes he is...and I as a Christian think this guy and his pastor are complete nutjobs. And I would be willing to pull the switch. Now, if we can get everyone to discredit the radicals in their religion.... My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking" Adnan Siddiqi wrote: don`t try to be clever ass wid me while you can`t..
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
He is a rare exception in the world of Christianity
Yes he is...and I as a Christian think this guy and his pastor are complete nutjobs. And I would be willing to pull the switch. Now, if we can get everyone to discredit the radicals in their religion.... My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking" Adnan Siddiqi wrote: don`t try to be clever ass wid me while you can`t..
kgaddy wrote:
Now, if we can get everyone to discredit the radicals in their religion....
The problem isn't that radicals exist, they do in every religion. The problem is that people do not want to admit they exist. So they overlook hints to behavior, they completely deny the existance of such people ("there are no Christians like this"), and otherwise deny the problem. The same thing happens in Islam, not everyone who is not an extremist believes that their "holy" person would do such a thing. They make up stories to justify themselves as to why it happened, or they completely disallow it as fabrication, complete denial that there is a problem. That has got to be solved, and I haven't a clue how. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I’m sensing you post is meant to show that this is not isolated to Islam. Yes, this happens in the US, Europe and everywhere else in the world. But a child molester or father who rapes a girl does so with no encouragement from his culture or the society he lives in. In Muslim countries, they still punish men if they rape their daughters. And I'm sure you can find a case where a man may kill his daughter in the US who is not Muslim. But this article shows a trend. And I believe, that the way women are treated in Muslim culture, leads to a slippery slope where men feel women can be killed if they dishonor their family. Again, not all Muslims feel this way. But many are moving to fundamental Islam that does seem to coincide with this practice. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking" Adnan Siddiqi wrote: don`t try to be clever ass wid me while you can`t..
kgaddy wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I’m sensing you post is meant to show that this is not isolated to Islam.
And if you read your own post about sharia, you would see the two are orthogonal. Relevant parts quoted below.
kgaddy wrote:
Yes, this happens in the US, Europe and everywhere else in the world.
Probably in far greater numbers.
kgaddy wrote:
In Muslim countries, they still punish men if they rape their daughters.
Good! If this ever does happen the person should get the ultimate punishment. "Honor killings" are, in the Western world, often erroneously identified as part of Islamic teaching, though they are in fact a cultural practice which is neither exclusive to, nor universal within, the Islamic world. Such killings take place within the Muslim communities around the Mediterranean as well as in the Punjab, India,[8] non-Muslim parts of West Africa, and in Central America; while in Indonesia, the world's largest Islamic country, the status of the practice is unknown. The stated reason for honor killings is the belief that the woman had caused the clan or family to lose honor by her alleged sexual activity and therefore deserved to be killed. Islamic teaching holds that life is given by Allah and should not be taken lightly
Quran Lectures (updated 1/3/06) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
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kgaddy wrote:
Now, if we can get everyone to discredit the radicals in their religion....
The problem isn't that radicals exist, they do in every religion. The problem is that people do not want to admit they exist. So they overlook hints to behavior, they completely deny the existance of such people ("there are no Christians like this"), and otherwise deny the problem. The same thing happens in Islam, not everyone who is not an extremist believes that their "holy" person would do such a thing. They make up stories to justify themselves as to why it happened, or they completely disallow it as fabrication, complete denial that there is a problem. That has got to be solved, and I haven't a clue how. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
I admit there are some crazy Christians, and every once in a while one of them kills people. But it seems that Christians have no problem denouncing these people. I have have never heard a pastor telling people to kill Muslims. But I'm sure there are some in the far reaches of the country. The problem is, these are the exceptions, It's still may be the exception in Islam, but it is fast becoming the rule. I'm not out to get Islam, I just wish they could accept other people and keep their radicals from: 1) Killing other people because they are infidels. 2) Killing other Muslims because the associate with infidels. 3) Killing their own children. 4) Blowing themselves up in crowds. 5) Blowing up other people in crowds. 6) Trying to take over Israel. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking" Adnan Siddiqi wrote: don`t try to be clever ass wid me while you can`t..
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kgaddy wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I’m sensing you post is meant to show that this is not isolated to Islam.
And if you read your own post about sharia, you would see the two are orthogonal. Relevant parts quoted below.
kgaddy wrote:
Yes, this happens in the US, Europe and everywhere else in the world.
Probably in far greater numbers.
kgaddy wrote:
In Muslim countries, they still punish men if they rape their daughters.
Good! If this ever does happen the person should get the ultimate punishment. "Honor killings" are, in the Western world, often erroneously identified as part of Islamic teaching, though they are in fact a cultural practice which is neither exclusive to, nor universal within, the Islamic world. Such killings take place within the Muslim communities around the Mediterranean as well as in the Punjab, India,[8] non-Muslim parts of West Africa, and in Central America; while in Indonesia, the world's largest Islamic country, the status of the practice is unknown. The stated reason for honor killings is the belief that the woman had caused the clan or family to lose honor by her alleged sexual activity and therefore deserved to be killed. Islamic teaching holds that life is given by Allah and should not be taken lightly
Quran Lectures (updated 1/3/06) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
I believe this happens in Muslim society more because of the way women are treated. I do not believe every Muslim condones this practice. It seems to be increasing in Europe among the Muslim population. Maybe you, as a Muslim, have some incite as to why this is happening? Do Muslims that do not believe in these practices talk about this? My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
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Alvaro Mendez wrote:
the pound-me-in-the-ass jail.
Is that a reference to Office Space ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
He is a rare exception in the world of Christianity
Yes he is...and I as a Christian think this guy and his pastor are complete nutjobs. And I would be willing to pull the switch. Now, if we can get everyone to discredit the radicals in their religion.... My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking" Adnan Siddiqi wrote: don`t try to be clever ass wid me while you can`t..
folks forgot to vote that post a 1. Messes up the color scheme. Mike "We ain't stuck on stupid." badass Lt. General Russel Honore **"Remember - live bunnies are a great source of nourishment"**silly-assed cartoon A vegan is someone who never heard a carrot cry!
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folks forgot to vote that post a 1. Messes up the color scheme. Mike "We ain't stuck on stupid." badass Lt. General Russel Honore **"Remember - live bunnies are a great source of nourishment"**silly-assed cartoon A vegan is someone who never heard a carrot cry!
Mike Gaskey wrote:
folks forgot to vote that post a 1. Messes up the color scheme.
I made some friends! They also forgot another one at the bottom. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
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Alvaro Mendez wrote:
the pound-me-in-the-ass jail.
Is that a reference to Office Space ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2006/01/16/for_muslim_women_a_deadly_defiance/?page=full [Edit]I think someone thinks the one votes will discredit the story...or even me???:laugh:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: How about try to make a point, if you can form one.[/Edit] My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking" Adnan Siddiqi wrote: don`t try to be clever ass wid me while you can`t.. -- modified at 17:19 Monday 16th January, 2006
I wonder how the stats of muslim honor killings stand up against non-muslim killings. Why these killings are called "honor killing" is beyond me. If a non-muslim does something like this, it's just a "regular" killing. :shrug:
I lived on the same street as someone, who is as non-muslim as you can be, who shot his ex-wife in the face with a shotgun, just to prove a point: you're not allowed to date other men. 6 kids, half of them which he beat regularly, because they were not his own offspring. Lovely chap. I hope he got an enlarged rectum shortly after his arrival to jail. (It freaks me out when I think of the time when I and a friend sneaked into their garden one evening to pick a few apples from his apple trees. He came out and ran after us with a huge wrench in is hands, screaming something like "wait until I get my hands on you!". In retrospect, I'm really glad we were a lot faster than him!)
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Stan Shannon wrote:
What? When have I ever said any such thing?
You said that all investigations of child abuse should be abandonded, I believe followed up with the point that the people would eventually kill themselves all off and no more problems. Unfortunately that is about as bad a situation as a government entity given free run without judicial or jury over-view. Although most reports of abuse do not have sufficient evidence of continued review (2,800,000 annual reports), still 800,000 to 1,200,000 do check out. Most have to be dropped for funding, so ignoring it simply increases problems rather than investigation. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
You said that all investigations of child abuse should be abandonded, I believe followed up with the point that the people would eventually kill themselves all off and no more problems.
I've never even come close to making any such point. You need to quit hearing what you want to hear instead of what some one is actually saying. I simply do not believe that there is some epidemic of child abuse, or abuse of women for that matter, that plagues our society. In my entire life I have witnessed very few excessive or unwarrented acts of violence against women or children. I'm not saying they don't occur, only that they are uncommon. If someone has actually evidence that it is occuring it should be investigated to the full extent of the law, and I trust local authorities to be fully empowered to deal with it if and when it occurs. My only objection is of those, such as yourself, who start with the premise that it is pervasive in society because you have an innately biased attitude towards religion and those who practice it. And then launch unjustified social reengineering campaigns to root out an evil that exists only in your own mind. To rely upon that prejudice to equate our society to that of the honor killings of the middle east and elsewhere is just pathetic. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
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I admit there are some crazy Christians, and every once in a while one of them kills people. But it seems that Christians have no problem denouncing these people. I have have never heard a pastor telling people to kill Muslims. But I'm sure there are some in the far reaches of the country. The problem is, these are the exceptions, It's still may be the exception in Islam, but it is fast becoming the rule. I'm not out to get Islam, I just wish they could accept other people and keep their radicals from: 1) Killing other people because they are infidels. 2) Killing other Muslims because the associate with infidels. 3) Killing their own children. 4) Blowing themselves up in crowds. 5) Blowing up other people in crowds. 6) Trying to take over Israel. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking" Adnan Siddiqi wrote: don`t try to be clever ass wid me while you can`t..
kgaddy wrote:
I'm not out to get Islam, I just wish they could accept other people and keep their radicals from:
I would have wished the IRA had done the same, but in the end the only way was to talk with and negotiate with the IRA to prevent future events while simultaneously trying those who did the worst events, and mediating lesser sentances for those who had gotten involved but not committed the most henious crimes. Just because the IRA isn't killing people today does not mean that Islam is the only group that has ever done these types of crimes. Islamic extremists may be the current worry, I am concerned as much over who will follow after, and then after them. The group split into the provisional IRA which became the more politically motivated (non-terrorist) group and the Real IRA which continues the terrorism activities though is substantially weaker. It is important to separate those who are politically motivated from those who are violence motivated. When you cast them all in the same bucket you get a much larger and more difficult enemy to fight. So far this split has managed to weaken the RIRA faction such that their activities have weakened. There are those who question if anyone should have have separated the two factions, just killed them all. Which brings us to today with multiple groups vying for political power in other regions. Do we fight them for a hundred years or try to separate the extremist portions from the rest? _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
You said that all investigations of child abuse should be abandonded, I believe followed up with the point that the people would eventually kill themselves all off and no more problems.
I've never even come close to making any such point. You need to quit hearing what you want to hear instead of what some one is actually saying. I simply do not believe that there is some epidemic of child abuse, or abuse of women for that matter, that plagues our society. In my entire life I have witnessed very few excessive or unwarrented acts of violence against women or children. I'm not saying they don't occur, only that they are uncommon. If someone has actually evidence that it is occuring it should be investigated to the full extent of the law, and I trust local authorities to be fully empowered to deal with it if and when it occurs. My only objection is of those, such as yourself, who start with the premise that it is pervasive in society because you have an innately biased attitude towards religion and those who practice it. And then launch unjustified social reengineering campaigns to root out an evil that exists only in your own mind. To rely upon that prejudice to equate our society to that of the honor killings of the middle east and elsewhere is just pathetic. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
Stan Shannon wrote:
I simply do not believe that there is some epidemic of child abuse, or abuse of women for that matter, that plagues our society.
It is nice to know that 1.2 million anually does not a plague make. Oh wait, I forgot to include women. 3.6 million. I do not justify killing anywhere, I say we need to crack down on the problem here AND there rather than denying any problems here while blaming all of our problems on them. Somewhere in the middle is the answer. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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You should see Office Space, it rocks. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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I wonder how the stats of muslim honor killings stand up against non-muslim killings. Why these killings are called "honor killing" is beyond me. If a non-muslim does something like this, it's just a "regular" killing. :shrug:
I lived on the same street as someone, who is as non-muslim as you can be, who shot his ex-wife in the face with a shotgun, just to prove a point: you're not allowed to date other men. 6 kids, half of them which he beat regularly, because they were not his own offspring. Lovely chap. I hope he got an enlarged rectum shortly after his arrival to jail. (It freaks me out when I think of the time when I and a friend sneaked into their garden one evening to pick a few apples from his apple trees. He came out and ran after us with a huge wrench in is hands, screaming something like "wait until I get my hands on you!". In retrospect, I'm really glad we were a lot faster than him!)
Back in the good old days, if something like this was known about someone, the locals would get together and beat the crap out of him. My father in law was a cop, and he got together a group of off duty officers and visited a bloke who was beating on his wife. That's the way to handle people like that, IMO. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Stan Shannon wrote:
I simply do not believe that there is some epidemic of child abuse, or abuse of women for that matter, that plagues our society.
It is nice to know that 1.2 million anually does not a plague make. Oh wait, I forgot to include women. 3.6 million. I do not justify killing anywhere, I say we need to crack down on the problem here AND there rather than denying any problems here while blaming all of our problems on them. Somewhere in the middle is the answer. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
I say we need to crack down on the problem here AND there rather than denying any problems here while blaming all of our problems on them.
And I maintain that the more freedom a society tolerates the probability of some kind of abuse occuring somewhere increases proportionally. Abuse based on the occasional random individual choseing to harm another is an entirely different species of problem than one in which the abuse is a result of accepted societal traditions. Understanding that some level of abuse is to be expected in a free society does not mean that it should be tolerated. However, it should be obvious that if our goal is to reduce such abuse to zero than we had better be willing to accept a much less free society. The only way to be assured that it never occurs can only be gained with a far more draconian form of loss of privacy rights than anything envisioned by the Patriot Act. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself" -- modified at 6:00 Tuesday 17th January, 2006