Middle East
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Please - why would you insist on spelling it wrong after I pointed out the correct spelling ? No, religion is never the origin of violence. In fact, Jesus told us to love our enemies. Religion is used by the powers that be to control the masses into acts of violence, that's another matter. In any case, there can be no doubt that violence existed before religion, and exists apart from religion. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
Jesus told us to love our enemies
But God told Jesus' people, the Jews, to slaughter the Bashanites and the Amorites and the fill-in-the-blank-ites all the way from Egypt to Israel. See Num 31:7 and Deut 20:13-17 as just two examples among many.
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Josh Gray wrote:
Why not? Is is part of the bible or not?
You obviously don't know much about the Bible. The Old Testament law became no longer applicable when Jesus came. "When only the police have guns, it's called a Police State."
Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
The Old Testament law became no longer applicable when Jesus came.
Uh, that's not what Jesus said. “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them” (Matthew 5:17).
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Christian Graus wrote:
Jesus told us to love our enemies
But God told Jesus' people, the Jews, to slaughter the Bashanites and the Amorites and the fill-in-the-blank-ites all the way from Egypt to Israel. See Num 31:7 and Deut 20:13-17 as just two examples among many.
Yes, this is true. No doubt about it. God did tell a specific group of people at a specific time to kill every enemy in their path. Therefore, religion can be blamed for some violence that took place thousands of years ago. That doesn't mean that all violence comes from religion, or that all religion promotes violence. Christianity does not, as I said. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Christian Graus wrote:
Jesus told us to love our enemies
But God told Jesus' people, the Jews, to slaughter the Bashanites and the Amorites and the fill-in-the-blank-ites all the way from Egypt to Israel. See Num 31:7 and Deut 20:13-17 as just two examples among many.
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
But God told Jesus' people, the Jews, to slaughter the Bashanites and the Amorites and the fill-in-the-blank-ites all the way from Egypt to Israel. See Num 31:7 and Deut 20:13-17 as just two examples among many.
The commandments of the Old Testament are no longer applicable today. Jesus fuliflled the Old Testament. "When only the police have guns, it's called a Police State."
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Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
The Old Testament law became no longer applicable when Jesus came.
Uh, that's not what Jesus said. “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them” (Matthew 5:17).
In my original post, I didnt say that the law is abolished, I said it is not applicable today. Jesus was the sacrifice for all of man's sins, so there is no need for the law today. "When only the police have guns, it's called a Police State."
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Christian fundamentalism
Is evil
Stan Shannon wrote:
Josh Gray wrote: What does that mean? Invade all muslim countries? Yes.
At what cost?
Stan Shannon wrote:
Those Muslim nations in the middle east that control the pertroleum in that area.
Ahh just those. Dont the rest represent a threat as well?
Stan Shannon wrote:
Establish colonial governments controlled by an international coalition of nations that would include China, the EU, the US, Russia, Japan, Australia, Canada, etc. but separate from the UN. I would break the region into very small regions each controlled by a government serviing at the behest of the controlling coalition. And yes, I would encourage the imigration of people from around the world to help build the local economies and introduce a more diverse social, religious and political mindset. I would also establish sanctuary states that would be reserved for those Muslims wishing to live in more socially and politically advanced conditions.
Sounds like another UN. What makes you think any of those countries would support that action? Sounds a bit like Africa l50 years ago to me. Didnt work so well then. Sancury states? Sounds like what Hitler called the Jewish slums of Germany before ww2 I have taken a vow of poverty. If you want to really piss me off, send me money.
Josh Gray wrote:
Is evil
Compared to what? And even if it is, how much of a threat does it really present, and how much is merely a figment of the left's own extermist imagination.
Josh Gray wrote:
At what cost?
Less than the alternative.
Josh Gray wrote:
Ahh just those.
Those are the base of power. Control those and you control all the rest.
Josh Gray wrote:
What makes you think any of those countries would support that action?
I don't seriously believe they would. But perhaps via certain incentives you could compel interest in the idea. For example, China last year tried to purchase major shares in the US patroleum industry. Perhaps, they could be allowed to develop their own oil industry to compete with those in the west, or some such arrangement beneficial to their continued economic growth. The EU might be willing to buy into the same arrangment. With all those players in the mix you'd probably need to fight off other nations that would want to join.
Josh Gray wrote:
Sounds a bit like Africa l50 years ago to me. Didnt work so well then.
Or Asia a century before. You're correct that management would have to be done in a more enlightened way with the bulk of the oil profits being plowed back into the ecnomies of that region. Providing education, jobs, etc, to lure the population away from extremism and into an acceptance of a less violent alternative social order.
Josh Gray wrote:
Sancury states? Sounds like what Hitler called the Jewish slums of Germany before ww2
:rolleyes: The idea would be to have areas governed by Muslims for Muslims desireing self rule without Islamic Fundamentalism. As these areas grew economically and socially, they could be combined into larger functional units until they could be trusted to return control of the entire region back over to leading to the ultimate termination of colonial rule. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself" -- modified at 20:59 Sunday 29th January, 2006
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Well it seams to me that you spout a lot of opinions that you are unable to back up. You just repeat what you have been told or read and you actually have no opinions of your own that are developed enough for you to defend. Our conversation about your sig last week was a classic example. You are a poster boy for indoctrination. I have taken a vow of poverty. If you want to really piss me off, send me money.
Josh Gray wrote:
You are a poster boy for indoctrination.
And you are a poster boy for a button pushing troll. "When only the police have guns, it's called a Police State."
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I don't get why people are so upset about Hamas winning the election. The only difference between them and that other bunch of dumb asses is that they don't make a secret about being a bunch of terrorists. They are not trying to hide what they are. What I find ironic is that the lefties all seem to think that the solution to the problem of Islamic extremism is to free the world of Jews and Christians! So, we cannot possible look in that direction for any sane, intellectual help on the issue. As a US citizen, I think it is time to force the issue once and for all. It has been allowed to fester for far too long. Oil will continue to be a huge enabling resource for all of this chaos for a long time to come. There is nothing Bush or anyone else can do about that in the forseeable future. So, I suggest that the powers of the world should simply come together and take the oil away from the Muslims. Re-colonize the region and set up international control of their governments. We have to choose between living in a stable, modern world, and pandering to the whims of a civilization which is increasingly unstable and dangerous. The sooner we put an end to it the better. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
Stan Shannon wrote:
So, I suggest that the powers of the world should simply come together and take the oil away from the Muslims.
LoL, how misguided are you anyway? Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
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Ed Gadziemski wrote:
But God told Jesus' people, the Jews, to slaughter the Bashanites and the Amorites and the fill-in-the-blank-ites all the way from Egypt to Israel. See Num 31:7 and Deut 20:13-17 as just two examples among many.
The commandments of the Old Testament are no longer applicable today. Jesus fuliflled the Old Testament. "When only the police have guns, it's called a Police State."
Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
Ed Gadziemski wrote: But God told Jesus' people, the Jews, to slaughter the Bashanites and the Amorites and the fill-in-the-blank-ites all the way from Egypt to Israel. See Num 31:7 and Deut 20:13-17 as just two examples among many. The commandments of the Old Testament are no longer applicable today.
Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
but when a religion such as Islam condones violence in it's Holy Books and was founded on violence, in my opinion, that makes the religion bad.
Knowing what you know now: If you lived during that time would you have considered Judaism to be a bad religion or would you have participated in the wiping out of those peoples?
Quran Lectures (updated 1/3/06) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
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Stan Shannon wrote:
So, I suggest that the powers of the world should simply come together and take the oil away from the Muslims.
LoL, how misguided are you anyway? Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
Matthew Hazlett wrote:
how misguided are you anyway?
So lets hear your plan. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
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Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
Ed Gadziemski wrote: But God told Jesus' people, the Jews, to slaughter the Bashanites and the Amorites and the fill-in-the-blank-ites all the way from Egypt to Israel. See Num 31:7 and Deut 20:13-17 as just two examples among many. The commandments of the Old Testament are no longer applicable today.
Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
but when a religion such as Islam condones violence in it's Holy Books and was founded on violence, in my opinion, that makes the religion bad.
Knowing what you know now: If you lived during that time would you have considered Judaism to be a bad religion or would you have participated in the wiping out of those peoples?
Quran Lectures (updated 1/3/06) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
A.A. wrote:
If you lived during that time
How am i supposed to predict what i would have done had i lived 3000 years ago? "When only the police have guns, it's called a Police State."
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A.A. wrote:
If you lived during that time
How am i supposed to predict what i would have done had i lived 3000 years ago? "When only the police have guns, it's called a Police State."
Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
How am i supposed to predict what i would have done had i lived 3000 years ago?
Fair, but thats why I said 'Knowing what you know now'
Quran Lectures (updated 1/3/06) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
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Josh Gray wrote:
Is evil
Compared to what? And even if it is, how much of a threat does it really present, and how much is merely a figment of the left's own extermist imagination.
Josh Gray wrote:
At what cost?
Less than the alternative.
Josh Gray wrote:
Ahh just those.
Those are the base of power. Control those and you control all the rest.
Josh Gray wrote:
What makes you think any of those countries would support that action?
I don't seriously believe they would. But perhaps via certain incentives you could compel interest in the idea. For example, China last year tried to purchase major shares in the US patroleum industry. Perhaps, they could be allowed to develop their own oil industry to compete with those in the west, or some such arrangement beneficial to their continued economic growth. The EU might be willing to buy into the same arrangment. With all those players in the mix you'd probably need to fight off other nations that would want to join.
Josh Gray wrote:
Sounds a bit like Africa l50 years ago to me. Didnt work so well then.
Or Asia a century before. You're correct that management would have to be done in a more enlightened way with the bulk of the oil profits being plowed back into the ecnomies of that region. Providing education, jobs, etc, to lure the population away from extremism and into an acceptance of a less violent alternative social order.
Josh Gray wrote:
Sancury states? Sounds like what Hitler called the Jewish slums of Germany before ww2
:rolleyes: The idea would be to have areas governed by Muslims for Muslims desireing self rule without Islamic Fundamentalism. As these areas grew economically and socially, they could be combined into larger functional units until they could be trusted to return control of the entire region back over to leading to the ultimate termination of colonial rule. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself" -- modified at 20:59 Sunday 29th January, 2006
Stan Shannon wrote:
Compared to what? And even if it is, how much of a threat does it really present, and how much is merely a figment of the left's own extermist imagination.
Compared to nothing. I think its a huge threat. Any type of fundamentalist has long ago given up on logic and reason and therefore is a threat. Faith and logic dont mix. Thats why I see people like Bush, Rice etc as a huge threat. They thing they are doing god's work and you cant reason with that kind of stupidity.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Or Asia a century before. You're correct that management would have to be done in a more enlightened way with the bulk of the oil profits being plowed back into the ecnomies of that region. Providing education, jobs, etc, to lure the population away from extremism and into an acceptance of a less violent alternative social order.
I think the best defence against fundamentalism is education. People with half a brain tend to questions things like blowing themselves up.
Stan Shannon wrote:
The idea would be to have areas governed by Muslims for Muslims desireing self rule without Islamic Fundamentalism. As these areas grew economically and socially, they could be combined into larger functional units until they could be trusted to return control of the entire region back over to leading to the ultimate termination of colonial rule.
Or they would attempt to rise up and take there country back like they are doing now in Iraq. You bunch them all together and your asking for trouble. I see a lot of people saying we have a problem and you are one of the few who are sugesting a solution but I think you are misguided. The Spanish seem to have solved there problems by getting the fuck out of Dodge. I am intersted to know what you think is the cause of the current terrorism issue? Why did 9/11 happen when it did and not 20 years ago? I have taken a vow of poverty. If you want to really piss me off, send me money.
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In my original post, I didnt say that the law is abolished, I said it is not applicable today. Jesus was the sacrifice for all of man's sins, so there is no need for the law today. "When only the police have guns, it's called a Police State."
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What i meant was i dont really care about you or what you have to say. You can go push someone elses buttons. :| "When only the police have guns, it's called a Police State."
For some reason I cant reply to your last post so Ill put it here. To be a button pucher here requires someone stupid enough to have their buttons pushed by a post on an internet forum. Dont take it so personally. As per usual you avoid all the real content of my post and sling an insult back at me. I am not offended in the lest but you could have commented on the real substance of my post. You should think long and hard before you accuse anyone of being a troll. Dickhead. You have three choices here when you make a post. You can defend your position and your arguments, keep your mouth shut or look like a fool. You seem to specialise in number 3. I have taken a vow of poverty. If you want to really piss me off, send me money.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Compared to what? And even if it is, how much of a threat does it really present, and how much is merely a figment of the left's own extermist imagination.
Compared to nothing. I think its a huge threat. Any type of fundamentalist has long ago given up on logic and reason and therefore is a threat. Faith and logic dont mix. Thats why I see people like Bush, Rice etc as a huge threat. They thing they are doing god's work and you cant reason with that kind of stupidity.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Or Asia a century before. You're correct that management would have to be done in a more enlightened way with the bulk of the oil profits being plowed back into the ecnomies of that region. Providing education, jobs, etc, to lure the population away from extremism and into an acceptance of a less violent alternative social order.
I think the best defence against fundamentalism is education. People with half a brain tend to questions things like blowing themselves up.
Stan Shannon wrote:
The idea would be to have areas governed by Muslims for Muslims desireing self rule without Islamic Fundamentalism. As these areas grew economically and socially, they could be combined into larger functional units until they could be trusted to return control of the entire region back over to leading to the ultimate termination of colonial rule.
Or they would attempt to rise up and take there country back like they are doing now in Iraq. You bunch them all together and your asking for trouble. I see a lot of people saying we have a problem and you are one of the few who are sugesting a solution but I think you are misguided. The Spanish seem to have solved there problems by getting the fuck out of Dodge. I am intersted to know what you think is the cause of the current terrorism issue? Why did 9/11 happen when it did and not 20 years ago? I have taken a vow of poverty. If you want to really piss me off, send me money.
Josh Gray wrote:
Compared to nothing. I think its a huge threat. Any type of fundamentalist has long ago given up on logic and reason and therefore is a threat. Faith and logic dont mix. Thats why I see people like Bush, Rice etc as a huge threat. They thing they are doing god's work and you cant reason with that kind of stupidity.
For me, the irony is that I don't see them pushing their beliefs upon anyone. That seems to be coming entirely from your direction. What I hear you saying is that any set of philosophical principles that challange what you refer to as "logic and reason" (i.e. your agenda) is to be seen as a treat that needs to be dealt with. I think the view you express are those that a free society should be most concerned with.
Josh Gray wrote:
I think the best defence against fundamentalism is education.
And I agree. That is why education would be the first priority of the colonial government.
Josh Gray wrote:
You bunch them all together and your asking for trouble.
Which is my point. They would not be bunched together. The sanctuaries would start off small and separate with hand picked populations of individuals petitioning for admittance based on a stated desire to escape Islamic extremism. The very minute Islamic fundamentalism began reasserting itself, the sanctuary would be disbanded.
Josh Gray wrote:
The Spanish seem to have solved there problems by getting the f*** out of Dodge.
Good god thats a stupid statement.
Josh Gray wrote:
I am intersted to know what you think is the cause of the current terrorism issue? Why did 9/11 happen when it did and not 20 years ago?
The timeing of 9/11 is very interesting. Personally, I think the terrorists, in league with certain leftist elements in Europe, had the attack planned to coincide with the election of the first republican president to regain the presidency. The fact that Bush's 2000 election was marred by such a close vote was iceing on the cake. I also believe that the cause of the terrorism is complex and has many origens. Clearly the involvement of the US in that region during the Cold War, the establishment of Isreal, our support of various non-democratic governments etc have tended to anger the Muslim world, and r
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Matthew Hazlett wrote:
how misguided are you anyway?
So lets hear your plan. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
I can tell you, if I had a plan it wouldn't involve illegal and highly immoral activities like steeling all the oil. Geeshe.. Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
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I can tell you, if I had a plan it wouldn't involve illegal and highly immoral activities like steeling all the oil. Geeshe.. Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
Matthew Hazlett wrote:
can tell you, if I had a plan it wouldn't involve illegal and highly immoral activities like steeling all the oil.
But I'm not talking about stealing it. Merely controlling it in a way that would help to grow all the economies of that region. It would be imperative that the profits from the oil be used to build a functional economic order that would allow the Muslim world to be ultimately integrated into a modern human civilization. I'm not minimizing the difficulty in achieving that given the obvious graft and corruption that would inherently become associated with it. But I don't see why any of that would be necessarily worse than it is now. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
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Josh Gray wrote:
Compared to nothing. I think its a huge threat. Any type of fundamentalist has long ago given up on logic and reason and therefore is a threat. Faith and logic dont mix. Thats why I see people like Bush, Rice etc as a huge threat. They thing they are doing god's work and you cant reason with that kind of stupidity.
For me, the irony is that I don't see them pushing their beliefs upon anyone. That seems to be coming entirely from your direction. What I hear you saying is that any set of philosophical principles that challange what you refer to as "logic and reason" (i.e. your agenda) is to be seen as a treat that needs to be dealt with. I think the view you express are those that a free society should be most concerned with.
Josh Gray wrote:
I think the best defence against fundamentalism is education.
And I agree. That is why education would be the first priority of the colonial government.
Josh Gray wrote:
You bunch them all together and your asking for trouble.
Which is my point. They would not be bunched together. The sanctuaries would start off small and separate with hand picked populations of individuals petitioning for admittance based on a stated desire to escape Islamic extremism. The very minute Islamic fundamentalism began reasserting itself, the sanctuary would be disbanded.
Josh Gray wrote:
The Spanish seem to have solved there problems by getting the f*** out of Dodge.
Good god thats a stupid statement.
Josh Gray wrote:
I am intersted to know what you think is the cause of the current terrorism issue? Why did 9/11 happen when it did and not 20 years ago?
The timeing of 9/11 is very interesting. Personally, I think the terrorists, in league with certain leftist elements in Europe, had the attack planned to coincide with the election of the first republican president to regain the presidency. The fact that Bush's 2000 election was marred by such a close vote was iceing on the cake. I also believe that the cause of the terrorism is complex and has many origens. Clearly the involvement of the US in that region during the Cold War, the establishment of Isreal, our support of various non-democratic governments etc have tended to anger the Muslim world, and r
Stan Shannon wrote:
what you refer to as "logic and reason" (i.e. your agenda)
Yes logic and reason is my agenda. I would love to see it in foreign police either from your country ro mine. Its interesting that Blair is a raving born again lunatic as well. Doing anythihng in the name of god or the bible is void of logic and reason. Thats why its called faith. You just have to beleive.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Good god thats a stupid statement.
Why? There have been no more bombs or threats. Sounds like a good situation to me. They get to drink sangria, have siesta's and get on with life.
Stan Shannon wrote:
I think the terrorists, in league with certain leftist elements in Europe
Good god you are a lunatic. Why do you hate the Euros so much?
Stan Shannon wrote:
I also believe that the cause of the terrorism is complex and has many origens. Clearly the involvement of the US in that region during the Cold War, the establishment of Isreal, our support of various non-democratic governments etc have tended to anger the Muslim world, and reasonably so (I'd be mad about it if I were them). In addition, I think the nature of Islam itself, as well as the history between the Christindom and Islam, tips the balance towards the use of violence and terrorism to achieve the goals of the various extremists groups. Lastly, the money flowing into that region ultimately fuels the entire mix. We are pouring billions of dollars into a civilizaton that never really escaped a pre-medieval, Iron age, tribalistic mindset, and we are seeing the results of doing so.
Yeah you fucked it up good. Couldnt agree more. I have taken a vow of poverty. If you want to really piss me off, send me money.
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Matthew Hazlett wrote:
can tell you, if I had a plan it wouldn't involve illegal and highly immoral activities like steeling all the oil.
But I'm not talking about stealing it. Merely controlling it in a way that would help to grow all the economies of that region. It would be imperative that the profits from the oil be used to build a functional economic order that would allow the Muslim world to be ultimately integrated into a modern human civilization. I'm not minimizing the difficulty in achieving that given the obvious graft and corruption that would inherently become associated with it. But I don't see why any of that would be necessarily worse than it is now. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
Stan Shannon wrote:
But I'm not talking about stealing it.
So I guess they will give it out for free?
Stan Shannon wrote:
Merely controlling it in a way that would help to grow all the economies of that region.
And whos in charge of that, you?
Stan Shannon wrote:
But I don't see why any of that would be necessarily worse than it is now.
Wow, No Comment... Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).