Weasel...
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First of all, very well said John.
John Carson wrote:
I am not convinced that any of these is actually necessary in my own country of Australia. I think that, over a generation or two, Muslims living in the West will tend to embrace Western liberal values provided they are treated reasonably, since freedom and democracy are intrinsically attractive. "Reasonable treatment" does not mean accepting or cooperating with the least acceptable aspects of fundamentalist Islam, such as discrimination against women and a lack of freedom of expression. It means generally adopting an attitude of goodwill and a live and let live policy on all matters that don't involve non-negotiable principles.
Absolutely, and these are principles of the so-called Left that Stan dislikes so much. Stan would prefer that we all embrace a militant Christian stance to fight off the "threat" from the Muslim world. It's the whole "they're out to get us" paranoia. I wonder if he also fears that someday we'll all be forced to listen to Hip-Hop music. :rolleyes: Alvaro
Alvaro Mendez wrote:
Stan would prefer that we all embrace a militant Christian stance to fight off the "threat" from the Muslim world.
I have never even hinted at any such belief. I simply have raised the question about the left's paranoia about Christian Fundamentalism as being a form of insanity given that an entire culture dedicated to Islamic fundamentalism is on a muderous rampage around the planet. Your post, as usual, reinforces the importance of that question. Any sane human being would realize the latter is far and away a more serious threat then the former. BTW - I actually like some hip-hop music. (I wouldn't buy it, but some of it is interesting to listen to) "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself" -- modified at 13:33 Thursday 2nd February, 2006
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First of all, very well said John.
John Carson wrote:
I am not convinced that any of these is actually necessary in my own country of Australia. I think that, over a generation or two, Muslims living in the West will tend to embrace Western liberal values provided they are treated reasonably, since freedom and democracy are intrinsically attractive. "Reasonable treatment" does not mean accepting or cooperating with the least acceptable aspects of fundamentalist Islam, such as discrimination against women and a lack of freedom of expression. It means generally adopting an attitude of goodwill and a live and let live policy on all matters that don't involve non-negotiable principles.
Absolutely, and these are principles of the so-called Left that Stan dislikes so much. Stan would prefer that we all embrace a militant Christian stance to fight off the "threat" from the Muslim world. It's the whole "they're out to get us" paranoia. I wonder if he also fears that someday we'll all be forced to listen to Hip-Hop music. :rolleyes: Alvaro
Alvaro Mendez wrote:
It's the whole "they're out to get us" paranoia.
They are "out to get" the us Westerners, think of 9/11, the London Bombings, the bombings in Madrid, the hostages in Iraq, the list goes on and on. Imagine if we had been more "paranoid" before 9/11/2001, we just might have stopped a few Islamists with ties to Al-Queda getting on a plane with box cutters and pepper spray. But, I guess that I am just racist and paranoid to even think that people from the Religion of Peace would to such things! "When only the police have guns, it's called a Police State."
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Alvaro Mendez wrote:
It's the whole "they're out to get us" paranoia.
They are "out to get" the us Westerners, think of 9/11, the London Bombings, the bombings in Madrid, the hostages in Iraq, the list goes on and on. Imagine if we had been more "paranoid" before 9/11/2001, we just might have stopped a few Islamists with ties to Al-Queda getting on a plane with box cutters and pepper spray. But, I guess that I am just racist and paranoid to even think that people from the Religion of Peace would to such things! "When only the police have guns, it's called a Police State."
Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
They are "out to get" the us Westerners, think of 9/11, the London Bombings, the bombings in Madrid, the hostages in Iraq, the list goes on and on.
Yes, but "they" are just a few. The world was with us after 9/11 and again when we went to Afghanistan to hunt down the bastards. And then came Iraq... :sigh:
Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
Imagine if we had been more "paranoid" before 9/11/2001, we just might have stopped a few Islamists with ties to Al-Queda getting on a plane with box cutters and pepper spray.
Yes, but don't tell that to George. He says there's nothing we could have done.
Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
But, I guess that I am just racist and paranoid to even think that people from the Religion of Peace would to such things!
No man, just don't group them all in the same bunch, that's all.
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Alvaro Mendez wrote:
we'll all be forced to listen to Hip-Hop music
NOOO!!! Let it not be true. Anything but that.
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Alvaro Mendez wrote:
Stan would prefer that we all embrace a militant Christian stance to fight off the "threat" from the Muslim world.
I have never even hinted at any such belief. I simply have raised the question about the left's paranoia about Christian Fundamentalism as being a form of insanity given that an entire culture dedicated to Islamic fundamentalism is on a muderous rampage around the planet. Your post, as usual, reinforces the importance of that question. Any sane human being would realize the latter is far and away a more serious threat then the former. BTW - I actually like some hip-hop music. (I wouldn't buy it, but some of it is interesting to listen to) "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself" -- modified at 13:33 Thursday 2nd February, 2006
Stan Shannon wrote:
I simply have raised the question about the left's paranoia about Christian Fundamentalism as being a form of insanity given that an entire culture dedicated to Islamic fundamentalism is on a muderous rampage around the planet. Your post, as usual, reinforces the importance of that question. Any sane human being would realize the latter is far and away a more serious threat then the former.
Maybe they are, but not in America, at least not yet. In America we have the Christian Right making all the noise. The Muslim fundies are making the noise in Europe and the Middle East. Let those countries worry about them.
Stan Shannon wrote:
BTW - I actually like some hip-hop music. (I wouldn't buy it, but some of it is interesting to listen to)
I like a couple of songs from Snoop Dogg and Eminem, but the rest I can't stand. Alvaro
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SteveKing wrote:
I don't think so. He only reprinted the cartoons. And as an editor, he should have known the impact. I find it irresponsible: if you know that these cartoons will offense many islamic people, then why print them? It's not as if those cartoons are that important. You could describe them of course, you can inform your readers about them. But reprinting them in the full knowlegde that you will only anger people, that's stupid.
Rubbish. There is a context to all this. There is a large number of Islamic-dominated countries that lack freedom of expression, lack religious freedom, lack freedom in social behaviour, and have a population that is prone to violent responses to anything or anyone that disagrees with them. Progress requires that the people in those countries get over their repressive attitudes. This progress will never occur unless people are prepared to go against the system and actually cause offence. That is how freedom was won in the West; it is the only way freedom can be won. Ideally, of course, reform should come from within, because it is more readily accepted from that source. Campaigns coming from outside incite nationalist as well as religious resistance. However, while the West should not be launching a Jihad of its own against Muslim beliefs, it should maintain its own standards. Ridicule of Christianity has a long history in the West and Islam should not have a total exemption. It really is preposterous to think that people in Saudi Arabia should be determining what cartoons are acceptable in Denmark or France. The West should not allow itself to be culturally colonised. John Carson "To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." Thomas Paine
John Carson wrote:
The West should not allow itself to be culturally colonised
Are you seriously frightened of your country becoming culturaly colonised by Islam?
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fat_boy wrote:
But, how about 0% loans, isnt that a good thing?
They are not 0% loans, they are a theological slight of hand. Generaly they work by the 'lender' buying the property out right, then renting it to the lendee for the period of time required to pay it off (at a slightly increased rate, generaly more expensive than an infidel mortgage). Ryan
O fools, awake! The rites you sacred hold Are but a cheat contrived by men of old, Who lusted after wealth and gained their lust And died in baseness—and their law is dust. al-Ma'arri (973-1057)
I think you really missed the point...
Quran Lectures (updated 1/3/06) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
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Stan Shannon wrote:
I simply have raised the question about the left's paranoia about Christian Fundamentalism as being a form of insanity given that an entire culture dedicated to Islamic fundamentalism is on a muderous rampage around the planet. Your post, as usual, reinforces the importance of that question. Any sane human being would realize the latter is far and away a more serious threat then the former.
Maybe they are, but not in America, at least not yet. In America we have the Christian Right making all the noise. The Muslim fundies are making the noise in Europe and the Middle East. Let those countries worry about them.
Stan Shannon wrote:
BTW - I actually like some hip-hop music. (I wouldn't buy it, but some of it is interesting to listen to)
I like a couple of songs from Snoop Dogg and Eminem, but the rest I can't stand. Alvaro
Alvaro Mendez wrote:
In America we have the Christian Right making all the noise.
As they have from the very earliest moments of our national history. Why they are suddenly portrayed as such a grevious threat is suspecious.
Alvaro Mendez wrote:
I like a couple of songs from Snoop Dogg and Eminem, but the rest I can't stand.
I've never listened to Snoop Dogg, but do I find Eminem's material to be interesting. I like any genre of music that shows some creativity and talent. The only kind of music I am entirely bored by is modern country and western music. I liked a lot of it up until about the time that Garth Brooks became popular. (Ricky Skaggs is good though) "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
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Alvaro Mendez wrote:
someday we'll all be forced to listen to Hip-Hop music.
As a musician and a fan of music in general I find that the words "hip-hop" and "music" do not go well together. But hell the fact that all the real musicians are now in their 50's and 60's simply points out the fact that Gen X and its anticedents have abandoned "music" for "crap" and it ain't getting ant better. The Stones at the superbowl!!!! Will wonders never cease. Richard Suppose you were an idiot... And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeat myself. --Mark Twain
Richard Stringer wrote:
As a musician and a fan of music in general I find that the words "hip-hop" and "music" do not go well together.
True, my bad. :) With very few exceptions, it's crap. And it never ceases to amaze me how young kids today (black, white, and everything in between) love that sh*t. South Florida used to have three Dance/Top-40 radio stations. Now they're all Hip-Hop. :^) Alvaro
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Stan Shannon wrote:
I simply have raised the question about the left's paranoia about Christian Fundamentalism as being a form of insanity given that an entire culture dedicated to Islamic fundamentalism is on a muderous rampage around the planet. Your post, as usual, reinforces the importance of that question. Any sane human being would realize the latter is far and away a more serious threat then the former.
Maybe they are, but not in America, at least not yet. In America we have the Christian Right making all the noise. The Muslim fundies are making the noise in Europe and the Middle East. Let those countries worry about them.
Stan Shannon wrote:
BTW - I actually like some hip-hop music. (I wouldn't buy it, but some of it is interesting to listen to)
I like a couple of songs from Snoop Dogg and Eminem, but the rest I can't stand. Alvaro
Alvaro Mendez wrote:
Maybe they are, but not in America, at least not yet. In America we have the Christian Right making all the noise
BTW, I would also point out that it was Islamic Fundamentalists that attacked us on 9/11. That made guite a lot of noise, if you will remember. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
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I was away for the first couple of weeks of january so must have missed it. I have felt for a long time that terrorism, however awful, is not the real threat from islam, it is the birth rate. They'll just breed us out of the way! I see it ending a little like the land of the dead: a small, embattled enclave of what remains of the west surrounded by the brain-dead horde that is islam waiting to make us just like them.
turning the other cheek just gets you slapped twice
legalAlien wrote:
I have felt for a long time that terrorism, however awful, is not the real threat from islam, it is the birth rate. They'll just breed us out of the way!
Stan Shannon wrote:
it is because the west is under the control of factions who simply will not allow it to fight back.
What kind of fighting back do you have in mind ? :suss: I know where this is leading. You want to become a Mormon and practice polygamy ? :rolleyes:
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legalAlien wrote:
I have felt for a long time that terrorism, however awful, is not the real threat from islam, it is the birth rate. They'll just breed us out of the way!
Stan Shannon wrote:
it is because the west is under the control of factions who simply will not allow it to fight back.
What kind of fighting back do you have in mind ? :suss: I know where this is leading. You want to become a Mormon and practice polygamy ? :rolleyes:
Mirza Ghalib wrote:
You want to become a Mormon and practice polygamy ?
No, he'll end up getting so bitter and twisted he'll walk into a mosque wearing an explosive belt.
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The editor had the courage to stand up to the bull-boy tactics employed by the islamic morons and his cowardly owner fires him for it. What a cunt. French editor fired over cartoons[^] I applaud the other newspapers for not bowing to pressure. I may not have much time for journalists and the nonsense they write but they should not be censored in any way even if that means they may offend anyone, me included (which they do on a regular basis).
turning the other cheek just gets you slapped twice
-- modified at 6:26 Thursday 2nd February, 2006 I have oft admired Stan Shannon's sig line: a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself so I went a-huntin and came across this article which is not directly related to the thread but, hopefully, will open a vigourous and heated discussion: It's the Demography, Stupid. The real reason the West is in danger of extinction.[^]
The owner of the newspaper is an Egyptian...
Some of us walk the memory lane, others plummet into a rabbit hole
Tree in C# || Fold With Us! || sighist -
Mirza Ghalib wrote:
You want to become a Mormon and practice polygamy ?
No, he'll end up getting so bitter and twisted he'll walk into a mosque wearing an explosive belt.
farmer giles wrote:
No, he'll end up getting so bitter and twisted he'll walk into a mosque wearing an explosive belt.
Ah! I see now. He lusts after the virgins :doh:
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John Carson wrote:
The West should not allow itself to be culturally colonised
Are you seriously frightened of your country becoming culturaly colonised by Islam?
farmer giles wrote:
Are you seriously frightened of your country becoming culturaly colonised by Islam?
Depends on what you mean by seriously frightened. I also don't think my country is the one in most danger. I think the danger is certainly real that there will be a loss of freedom of speech on religious matters because of the fear of violent reaction from Muslims. I think that has already happened to some extent. John Carson "To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." Thomas Paine
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Mirza Ghalib wrote:
You want to become a Mormon and practice polygamy ?
No, he'll end up getting so bitter and twisted he'll walk into a mosque wearing an explosive belt.
This was one man who believed in fighting back :-D
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This was one man who believed in fighting back :-D
Is that LA's dad?
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farmer giles wrote:
Are you seriously frightened of your country becoming culturaly colonised by Islam?
Depends on what you mean by seriously frightened. I also don't think my country is the one in most danger. I think the danger is certainly real that there will be a loss of freedom of speech on religious matters because of the fear of violent reaction from Muslims. I think that has already happened to some extent. John Carson "To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." Thomas Paine
John Carson wrote:
I think the danger is certainly real that there will be a loss of freedom of speech on religious matters because of the fear of violent reaction from Muslims. I think that has already happened to some extent.
Yes, so the question is if we try to provoke them are we really going to safeguard our freedoms?
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John Carson wrote:
I think that, over a generation or two, Muslims living in the West will tend to embrace Western liberal values provided they are treated reasonably, since freedom and democracy are intrinsically attractive.
But why should they? The notion that you have created a set of cultural principles that are just so intrinsically superior to all others tht all of humanity will just naturally wish to adopt them is ludicrous. That all you have to do is be nice to people and you win is silly. The lesson that the left is teaching the world is not the inherent superiority of liberalism, it is that liberalism leads inevitably to cultural, racial extinction. Guess what, most people are going to reject that kind of lunacy out of hand. They are going to adopt our principles for only so long as it takes for us to die off to the point that they can just sweep us into the dustbin of history along with all of our tolerance and goodwill.
John Carson wrote:
I don't see any real indication that the Republican right has any constructive ideas on this of either the soft-line or hard-line variety.
I don't disagree with that, however. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
Stan Shannon wrote:
But why should they? The notion that you have created a set of cultural principles that are just so intrinsically superior to all others tht all of humanity will just naturally wish to adopt them is ludicrous.
I don't think it is ludicrous. I think it is something for which there is considerable empirical and psychological support. Note that it is based on an assumption that illiberal Muslims form a small percentage of the population at any given time, so they get to be born and grow up in a liberal society. The mere fact that a liberal society is something they grow up in is perhaps the most important influence. I doubt that your local football team is instrinsically superior to all others, but most people who are born and grow up in the area will support it. Further, the temptations of freedom are very hard to resist, especially for those who are most denied it in Muslim society, namely women. The behavioural norms characteristic of any strict religion can only be sustained by oppressive social pressure. Such pressure is hard to maintain for a group surrounded by a liberal society --- especially if that liberal society treats them well and thus reduces the viability of a siege mentality. John Carson <Edit> Incidentally, I read recently that one of the probable reasons for the absence of attacks on US soil since September 11 2001 has been the difficulty that Al Qaeda has had in recruiting local Muslims to its cause. Seems their loyalty to the good ole USA has trumped the appeal of their Muslim brothers. </Edit> "To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." Thomas Paine -- modified at 21:38 Thursday 2nd February, 2006
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John Carson wrote:
I think the danger is certainly real that there will be a loss of freedom of speech on religious matters because of the fear of violent reaction from Muslims. I think that has already happened to some extent.
Yes, so the question is if we try to provoke them are we really going to safeguard our freedoms?
farmer giles wrote:
Yes, so the question is if we try to provoke them are we really going to safeguard our freedoms?
There are real and significant disagreements within society about many matters: religious, political, social, cultural. Accordingly, acting in a way that some will find provocative is a necessary implication of having freedom. If we don't act in a way that some will find provocative, we have already lost our freedom. John Carson "To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." Thomas Paine
