Mohammed guest role on "The Simpsons" in doubt
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ihoecken wrote:
Not to make jokes or to offend someone
Unless the offense has a greater purpose. It is one thing to respectfully react to being asked politely to not offend, it is quite another to meekly do so under threat of violence. For that reason, we should boldly offend at every possible opportunity. If this episode of the Simpsons is not shown, it means that the threats have worked. We have been defeated on the social values front. The islamic world has successfully imposed their values upon us. Why even continue to pretend that we have any will to defend the rest? "You get that which you tolerate" -- modified at 9:10 Thursday 9th February, 2006
Stan Shannon wrote:
If this episode of the Simpsons is not shown, it means that the threats have worked. We have been defeated on the social values front.
:laugh: The whole site from which this story derives is satirical. I don't believe there is any planned Simpson's episode featuring Mohammed (pity though). John Carson "To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." Thomas Paine
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You confuse free speech with amusement. Free speech is the right to tell the 1) truth and 2) your opinion. Not to make jokes or to offend someone. But I think your right, when you say this censorship is a mistake. I agree in this point with you. Greetings, Ingo ------------------------------ A bug in a Microsoft Product? No! It's not a bug it's an undocumented feature!
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ihoecken wrote:
Not to make jokes or to offend someone
Unless the offense has a greater purpose. It is one thing to respectfully react to being asked politely to not offend, it is quite another to meekly do so under threat of violence. For that reason, we should boldly offend at every possible opportunity. If this episode of the Simpsons is not shown, it means that the threats have worked. We have been defeated on the social values front. The islamic world has successfully imposed their values upon us. Why even continue to pretend that we have any will to defend the rest? "You get that which you tolerate" -- modified at 9:10 Thursday 9th February, 2006
I wonder if somebody reads what another one has said. You just quoted a part of my statement that totally sophisticates it.
Stan Shannon wrote:
If this episode of the Simpsons is not shown, it means that the threats have worked. We have been defeated on the social values front. The islamic world has successfully imposed their values upon us. Why even continue to pretend that we have any will to defend the rest?
No question, but I didn't said anything against it. Argueing with you is a hard job. Every time you allege something or just take a part of sentence and argue about that. There were two points. First free speech was mixed up with other right (I said that) and second I agreed that it's wrong to stop making cartoons. What is your point then? I said what you said, so don't do like I said something different. Greetings, Ingo ------------------------------ A bug in a Microsoft Product? No! It's not a bug it's an undocumented feature!
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fat_boy wrote:
Dressing up the truth or your opinion in a joke is not OK then?
No. Didn't you read it? I said "this censorship is a mistake". What do you think I wanted to say with this sentence, That censorshio is a great thing and no cartoons should be allowed anymore? ------------------------------ A bug in a Microsoft Product? No! It's not a bug it's an undocumented feature!
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fat_boy wrote:
Dressing up the truth or your opinion in a joke is not OK then?
No. Didn't you read it? I said "this censorship is a mistake". What do you think I wanted to say with this sentence, That censorshio is a great thing and no cartoons should be allowed anymore? ------------------------------ A bug in a Microsoft Product? No! It's not a bug it's an undocumented feature!
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You wrote: 'Free speech is the right to tell the 1) truth and 2) your opinion. Not to make jokes or to offend someone' I asked whether dressing the truth or your opinion up as a joke was ok. Nunc est bibendum
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And in the next sentence I wrote that it is ok. So why do you ask again? ------------------------------ A bug in a Microsoft Product? No! It's not a bug it's an undocumented feature!
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I wonder if somebody reads what another one has said. You just quoted a part of my statement that totally sophisticates it.
Stan Shannon wrote:
If this episode of the Simpsons is not shown, it means that the threats have worked. We have been defeated on the social values front. The islamic world has successfully imposed their values upon us. Why even continue to pretend that we have any will to defend the rest?
No question, but I didn't said anything against it. Argueing with you is a hard job. Every time you allege something or just take a part of sentence and argue about that. There were two points. First free speech was mixed up with other right (I said that) and second I agreed that it's wrong to stop making cartoons. What is your point then? I said what you said, so don't do like I said something different. Greetings, Ingo ------------------------------ A bug in a Microsoft Product? No! It's not a bug it's an undocumented feature!
I wasn't trying to disagree with you, merely to put a greater emphasis on the crucial point. As John pointed out, I see now this is a satire. But it would have made a damn funny episode. The fact that shows like the Simpsons unapologetically satirize christianity, but won't touch Islam, still sort of brings the point home. Simply put, we are afraid of Islam and are willing to back peddle on our most sacred social traditions to accomodate them. "You get that which you tolerate"
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So if I make an offensive joke that has is just my opinion it is OK too? Nunc est bibendum
If you make a joke it's okay. But if you tell a lie it's not. If the offensive joke shows the truth, tell it. If you have a joke that is not truth but not offensive then you can tell it. But when it's a lie and offensive then you should make up your mind if you tell it anyway. Because there are more rights and even higher then free speech. There are the rights liberty, equality and human dignity which are above the right of free speech. If you like to make a joke about me or germany I won't mind. I've got dozens of these and some are really funny. Greetings, Ingo ------------------------------ A bug in a Microsoft Product? No! It's not a bug it's an undocumented feature!
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I wasn't trying to disagree with you, merely to put a greater emphasis on the crucial point. As John pointed out, I see now this is a satire. But it would have made a damn funny episode. The fact that shows like the Simpsons unapologetically satirize christianity, but won't touch Islam, still sort of brings the point home. Simply put, we are afraid of Islam and are willing to back peddle on our most sacred social traditions to accomodate them. "You get that which you tolerate"
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ihoecken wrote:
Free speech is the right to tell the 1) truth and 2) your opinion. Not to make jokes or to offend someone.
Says who?
espeir wrote:
Says who?
Says the professor you forgot to listen to during your obviously misspent education.;P "Art doesn't want to be familiar. It wants to astonish us. Or, in some cases, to enrage us. It wants to move us. To touch us. Not accommodate us, make us comfortable." -- Jamake Highwater Toasty0.com My Grandkids
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http://www.chaser.com.au/content/view/2998/26/[^] C'mon people! This is stupid. Are you going to let a bunch of nutters and whackos self-censor the right to free speech.
- I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it. --Voltaire (1694-1778)
We surrender :sigh: -------- "I say no to drugs, but they don't listen." - Marilyn Manson
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You confuse free speech with amusement. Free speech is the right to tell the 1) truth and 2) your opinion. Not to make jokes or to offend someone. But I think your right, when you say this censorship is a mistake. I agree in this point with you. Greetings, Ingo ------------------------------ A bug in a Microsoft Product? No! It's not a bug it's an undocumented feature!
Nowadays, everybody invokes "free speech" without really knowing what it stands for. -------- "I say no to drugs, but they don't listen." - Marilyn Manson
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So if I make an offensive joke that has is just my opinion it is OK too? Nunc est bibendum
fat_boy wrote:
So if I make an offensive joke that has is just my opinion it is OK too?
As long as it is not slander or libel then yes it is protect speech...BUT...let us not forget, "FREE" speech is never really free. It always has a price to pay as there will always be those who would wish you to shut-up. "Art doesn't want to be familiar. It wants to astonish us. Or, in some cases, to enrage us. It wants to move us. To touch us. Not accommodate us, make us comfortable." -- Jamake Highwater Toasty0.com My Grandkids
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espeir wrote:
Says who?
When you make a horror movie and it's forbidden to show, then it's not because of free speech is limited. Free speech is to tell your opinion, that is part of many constitutions and say tell that you have to tell your opinion. So most constitutions say. ------------------------------ A bug in a Microsoft Product? No! It's not a bug it's an undocumented feature!
The American constitution doesn't say that. In fact it doesn't even define what speech is. The word "opinion" doesn't appear anywhere in the US constition. I'm not disagreeing that stating your opinion is free speech. I'm disagreeing that satire (i.e. making fun of someone) isn't. Ben Franklin, who largely started the free press in the US, practically made a career out of making fun of people. It's an American tradition!
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If you make a joke it's okay. But if you tell a lie it's not. If the offensive joke shows the truth, tell it. If you have a joke that is not truth but not offensive then you can tell it. But when it's a lie and offensive then you should make up your mind if you tell it anyway. Because there are more rights and even higher then free speech. There are the rights liberty, equality and human dignity which are above the right of free speech. If you like to make a joke about me or germany I won't mind. I've got dozens of these and some are really funny. Greetings, Ingo ------------------------------ A bug in a Microsoft Product? No! It's not a bug it's an undocumented feature!
ihoecken wrote:
There are the rights liberty, equality and human dignity which are above the right of free speech.
Equality is a right? I'm going to call Bill Gates right now and demand that he give me half his money! I am also apparently physically unable to trip and fall on my face in public, because that would be a violation of my right to human dignity!
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The American constitution doesn't say that. In fact it doesn't even define what speech is. The word "opinion" doesn't appear anywhere in the US constition. I'm not disagreeing that stating your opinion is free speech. I'm disagreeing that satire (i.e. making fun of someone) isn't. Ben Franklin, who largely started the free press in the US, practically made a career out of making fun of people. It's an American tradition!
espeir wrote:
I'm disagreeing that satire (i.e. making fun of someone) isn't.
I didn't said that satire isn't free speech. I just said you can't say that sarire is free speech. Jokes can be free speech of course but not every joke is free speech. So you can't claim the right to make every joke because of free speech. Ingo ------------------------------ A bug in a Microsoft Product? No! It's not a bug it's an undocumented feature!
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ihoecken wrote:
There are the rights liberty, equality and human dignity which are above the right of free speech.
Equality is a right? I'm going to call Bill Gates right now and demand that he give me half his money! I am also apparently physically unable to trip and fall on my face in public, because that would be a violation of my right to human dignity!
espeir wrote:
Equality is a right? I'm going to call Bill Gates right now and demand that he give me half his money!
Equality under the law. I thought I don't have to state the complete because you should know what is ment. ------------------------------ A bug in a Microsoft Product? No! It's not a bug it's an undocumented feature!
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fat_boy wrote:
So if I make an offensive joke that has is just my opinion it is OK too?
As long as it is not slander or libel then yes it is protect speech...BUT...let us not forget, "FREE" speech is never really free. It always has a price to pay as there will always be those who would wish you to shut-up. "Art doesn't want to be familiar. It wants to astonish us. Or, in some cases, to enrage us. It wants to move us. To touch us. Not accommodate us, make us comfortable." -- Jamake Highwater Toasty0.com My Grandkids
Toasty0 wrote:
As long as it is not slander or libel then yes it is protect speech...BUT...let us not forget, "FREE" speech is never really free. It always has a price to pay as there will always be those who would wish you to shut-up.
Good point. ------------------------------ A bug in a Microsoft Product? No! It's not a bug it's an undocumented feature!
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espeir wrote:
I'm disagreeing that satire (i.e. making fun of someone) isn't.
I didn't said that satire isn't free speech. I just said you can't say that sarire is free speech. Jokes can be free speech of course but not every joke is free speech. So you can't claim the right to make every joke because of free speech. Ingo ------------------------------ A bug in a Microsoft Product? No! It's not a bug it's an undocumented feature!
Actually, yes, you can. A statement made as a joke can only rarely, if ever, be considered defamatory. You also don't run into the "fire in a crowded theater" argument with jokes, so I'd have to say that every joke would be considered free speech. When would this not be the case?
