So....
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jasontg wrote:
Now, by the way, any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires -- a wiretap requires a court order.
How is that a lie? Read the WHOLE speach. He was talking about roving wiretaps. "I was talking about roving wiretaps, I believe, involving the Patriot Act," Bush said. "This is different from the NSA program." The NSA program has diffrent rules Here. So no, that was not a lie. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
kgaddy wrote:
The NSA program has diffrent rules
Ah, well - as long as we're calling it something different... :rolleyes:
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jasontg wrote:
Now, by the way, any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires -- a wiretap requires a court order.
How is that a lie? Read the WHOLE speach. He was talking about roving wiretaps. "I was talking about roving wiretaps, I believe, involving the Patriot Act," Bush said. "This is different from the NSA program." The NSA program has diffrent rules Here. So no, that was not a lie. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
Deceptions and more deceptions. You guys should vote Alex Jones[^] into office! Alex for president! :cool:
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Jim A. Johnson wrote:
The reason it's OK to say "Bush Lied" is because, in fact, he did.
Fact? Ok, what did he lie about? My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
His desertion from the National Guard. The tigress is here :-D
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espeir wrote:
Osama Bin Laden sounds like an American leftist these days.
And that somehow means that American leftists are supporters of Osama Bin Laden?
espeir wrote:
Bush didn't lie.
Right, whatever.
espeir wrote:
In fact we know that he had WMD, but got rid of them sometime before the war...probably in an effort to fuel the anti-American sentiment held by the American left
Are you suggesting that Saddam was sitting around plotting one day and thought to himself, "If I get rid of my weapons, that will make American liberals sympathetic to my cause."? You'd have to be nuts to think that.
espeir wrote:
We see a lot of attempts to outlaw freedom of speech coming from the left nowadays.
Yes, like Free-Speech Zones"... oh, wait, that was Bush.
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
« eikonoklastes »
Daniel R Ferguson wrote:
And that somehow means that American leftists are supporters of Osama Bin Laden?
As conspiracy theories go, it is far more rational to believe that the left, both in Europe as well as the US, conspired with Osama to bring about 9/11 than it is to believe that Bush used 9/11 in some sort of bizare conspiracy to secure Iraqi oil supplies or avenge his father, or do what ever the latest lefty theory is. "You get that which you tolerate"
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His desertion from the National Guard. The tigress is here :-D
Trollslayer wrote:
His desertion from the National Guard.
Actually, that would be an example of a lie on your part. "You get that which you tolerate"
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I'll admit that I haven't done much research on this topic, but off the top of my head I thought this one was a pretty good example:
President Bush said April 20, 2004:
Now, by the way, any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires -- a wiretap requires a court order.
-J
Think of a computer program. Somewhere, there is one key instruction, and everything else is just functions calling themselves, or brackets billowing out endlessly through an infinite address space. What happens when the brackets collapse? Where's the final 'end if'? Is any of this making sense? -Ford Prefect
So then you agree that wiretaps don't require a court order? That would be the case if, as you are saying, he lied here.
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His desertion from the National Guard. The tigress is here :-D
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So then you agree that wiretaps don't require a court order? That would be the case if, as you are saying, he lied here.
No, the context of the speach did not involve the secret NSA program (used by Carter, Clinton). When you tap someone overseas, it does not require a court order. Even if one end of the call comes, or is received from withing the US. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
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No, the context of the speach did not involve the secret NSA program (used by Carter, Clinton). When you tap someone overseas, it does not require a court order. Even if one end of the call comes, or is received from withing the US. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
I wasn't familiar with the speech. I just found it funny that by calling Bush a liar in that quote, he's essentially saying that wiretapping without a court order is legal since Bush stated the opposite (context aside). But I'm sure if you ask him whether wiretapping without a warrant is legal, he would say no.
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Daniel R Ferguson wrote:
And that somehow means that American leftists are supporters of Osama Bin Laden?
As conspiracy theories go, it is far more rational to believe that the left, both in Europe as well as the US, conspired with Osama to bring about 9/11 than it is to believe that Bush used 9/11 in some sort of bizare conspiracy to secure Iraqi oil supplies or avenge his father, or do what ever the latest lefty theory is. "You get that which you tolerate"
I'm not sure about the reliability of the source -- it was first in my search, and there are many others -- but it seems credible: Bush planned Iraq 'regime change' before becoming President[^]. This also goes along with statements from administration insiders, Richard Clark among them. The model fits the data. On the other hand, you'd have to be on the pipe to even consider a link between the "lefties" and Bin Laden.
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I'm not sure about the reliability of the source -- it was first in my search, and there are many others -- but it seems credible: Bush planned Iraq 'regime change' before becoming President[^]. This also goes along with statements from administration insiders, Richard Clark among them. The model fits the data. On the other hand, you'd have to be on the pipe to even consider a link between the "lefties" and Bin Laden.
Actually, Clinton drew up the plan for regime change. But more on you link. Look at this line : "The document, entitled Rebuilding America's Defences: Strategies, Forces And Resources For A New Century, was written in September 2000 by the neo-conservative think-tank Project for the New American Century (PNAC)." Now how does the reporter go from this to Bush planed "A SECRET blueprint for US global domination"? And I would not call Richard Clark an administration insider. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
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Actually, Clinton drew up the plan for regime change. But more on you link. Look at this line : "The document, entitled Rebuilding America's Defences: Strategies, Forces And Resources For A New Century, was written in September 2000 by the neo-conservative think-tank Project for the New American Century (PNAC)." Now how does the reporter go from this to Bush planed "A SECRET blueprint for US global domination"? And I would not call Richard Clark an administration insider. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
I didn't claim that it was good reportage, or that the headline was accurate; just that there is more evidence for the war being planned before 9/11 than for Stan's "lefty" plot. You're right, Richard Clark is not an administration insider, he's the president of Merck. Richard Clark_e_, however, is the one who was a part of the United States National Security Council from 1992-2003, serving as: * Special Advisor 2001-2003 * National Coordinator for Security, Infrastructure Protection, and Counter-terrorism, 1998-2000 * Chair of the Counter-terrorism Security Group, 1992-2003 Condoleeza Rice dealt with him extensively. I think most people would consider him a former administration insider. You wouldn't, and that's fine. But I would consider him knowledgeable, trustworthy, and privy to inside information on the details of the administration's dealings with terrorism, which is the issue being discussed.
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I didn't claim that it was good reportage, or that the headline was accurate; just that there is more evidence for the war being planned before 9/11 than for Stan's "lefty" plot. You're right, Richard Clark is not an administration insider, he's the president of Merck. Richard Clark_e_, however, is the one who was a part of the United States National Security Council from 1992-2003, serving as: * Special Advisor 2001-2003 * National Coordinator for Security, Infrastructure Protection, and Counter-terrorism, 1998-2000 * Chair of the Counter-terrorism Security Group, 1992-2003 Condoleeza Rice dealt with him extensively. I think most people would consider him a former administration insider. You wouldn't, and that's fine. But I would consider him knowledgeable, trustworthy, and privy to inside information on the details of the administration's dealings with terrorism, which is the issue being discussed.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Condoleeza Rice dealt with him extensively. I think most people would consider him a former administration insider. You wouldn't, and that's fine. But I would consider him knowledgeable, trustworthy, and privy to inside information on the details of the administration's dealings with terrorism, which is the issue being discussed.
When I said he was not an insider, I did not mean he did not hold a post. He was a leftover from the Clinton admin., and kept on until 2003. To say he was an "Insider" is a streach. Just because you work for the goverment does not make you an "Insider". I would call Cheney, or Rice "Insiders" but not every analyst that works for goverment. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
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I didn't claim that it was good reportage, or that the headline was accurate; just that there is more evidence for the war being planned before 9/11 than for Stan's "lefty" plot. You're right, Richard Clark is not an administration insider, he's the president of Merck. Richard Clark_e_, however, is the one who was a part of the United States National Security Council from 1992-2003, serving as: * Special Advisor 2001-2003 * National Coordinator for Security, Infrastructure Protection, and Counter-terrorism, 1998-2000 * Chair of the Counter-terrorism Security Group, 1992-2003 Condoleeza Rice dealt with him extensively. I think most people would consider him a former administration insider. You wouldn't, and that's fine. But I would consider him knowledgeable, trustworthy, and privy to inside information on the details of the administration's dealings with terrorism, which is the issue being discussed.
Oh, and I forgot. You said:
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
But I would consider him knowledgeable, trustworthy
I have a problem with trusting him. Here's why: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,604598,00.html Time mag points how Clarke contradicts himself. Also, if he were an insider why would Cheney say this: "Dick Cheney told Rush Limbaugh that Clarke “wasn't in the loop, frankly, on a lot of this stuff" And Rice said this: "Dick Clarke just does not know what he's talking about" My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking" -- modified at 11:52 Wednesday 1st March, 2006
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I wasn't familiar with the speech. I just found it funny that by calling Bush a liar in that quote, he's essentially saying that wiretapping without a court order is legal since Bush stated the opposite (context aside). But I'm sure if you ask him whether wiretapping without a warrant is legal, he would say no.
Actually.... legality was never mentioned anyhere in that quote or my post. By saying that he lied when he said "wiretaps require court orders" would be to imply that there are wiretaps without court orders.
espeir wrote:
But I'm sure if you ask him whether wiretapping without a warrant is legal, he would say no.
What do they say assuming does? :rolleyes: -J
Think of a computer program. Somewhere, there is one key instruction, and everything else is just functions calling themselves, or brackets billowing out endlessly through an infinite address space. What happens when the brackets collapse? Where's the final 'end if'? Is any of this making sense? -Ford Prefect
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Daniel R Ferguson wrote:
And that somehow means that American leftists are supporters of Osama Bin Laden?
As conspiracy theories go, it is far more rational to believe that the left, both in Europe as well as the US, conspired with Osama to bring about 9/11 than it is to believe that Bush used 9/11 in some sort of bizare conspiracy to secure Iraqi oil supplies or avenge his father, or do what ever the latest lefty theory is. "You get that which you tolerate"
They're both unlikely, but the leftists supporting Osama is far more unlikely because there's no motivation for them to do so, and even if they did have a motivation, how did they manage to coordinate their own activities when they don't even had a leader? On the other hand, it's not likely that Bush planned 9/11 with Osama so that he could avenge his father and get some oil. It wouldn't be the least bit surprising for him to take advantage of huge support after 9/11 though.
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
« eikonoklastes »
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Actually.... legality was never mentioned anyhere in that quote or my post. By saying that he lied when he said "wiretaps require court orders" would be to imply that there are wiretaps without court orders.
espeir wrote:
But I'm sure if you ask him whether wiretapping without a warrant is legal, he would say no.
What do they say assuming does? :rolleyes: -J
Think of a computer program. Somewhere, there is one key instruction, and everything else is just functions calling themselves, or brackets billowing out endlessly through an infinite address space. What happens when the brackets collapse? Where's the final 'end if'? Is any of this making sense? -Ford Prefect
No, but the word "required" is mentioned. Obviously to anyone with any sense, that means required by law (as where else would such a requirement come?). So if in that quote Bush says that wiretapping requires a court order, and you claim that the statement is a lie, then you're saying that a court order is actually not required for wiretapping.
jasontg wrote:
What do they say assuming does?
jasontg wrote:
By saying that he lied when he said "wiretaps require court orders" would be to imply that there are wiretaps without court orders.
:laugh: Ironic...Since he never made that statement, that means you're making assumptions about his intentions.
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espeir wrote:
Do they explicitely support him? I don't think so, but it is kind of odd, don't you think?
It's not really odd when you realize that nobody likes neocolonialism, whether you're whack-job terrorist or a democratic leftist. What is odd is that anyone does support neocolonialism.
espeir wrote:
Saddam would have to be nuts not to think of hiding it or getting rid of it before they were invaded.
I agree with that, but extending it to say that he did it for support from the left is stretching.
espeir wrote:
You're not entitled to physical proximty to the president.
But they are entitled to protest without being corralled into out-of-the-way places.
espeir wrote:
Here's a good example of leftist thought control
"comments that innate ability may explain why few women reach top science posts" I'm not a fan of political correctness, but someone in his position shouldn't be saying things like that. I don't think this is some coordinated suppression of his thoughts by the left though.
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
« eikonoklastes »
Daniel R Ferguson wrote:
It's not really odd when you realize that nobody likes neocolonialism, whether you're whack-job terrorist or a democratic leftist. What is odd is that anyone does support neocolonialism.
What are you talking about? First of all, why would a term like neocolonialism be required over colonialism. I'll call it colonialism because that's just stupid. But anyway, that implies creating colonies. America is not expanding it's real estate (which would be required if it were practicing colonialism. Iraq's government would have to be permanently under US control...which it is not. So this really makes no sense.
Daniel R Ferguson wrote:
I agree with that, but extending it to say that he did it for support from the left is stretching.
I don't think he specifically had the left in mind. But I believe it was done to discredit the US. It just so happens that the left latched onto that because they are basically anti-American to begin with.
Daniel R Ferguson wrote:
But they are entitled to protest without being corralled into out-of-the-way places.
No they aren't. They were complaining about not being able to be adjacent to the president. And what about abortion protestors?
Daniel R Ferguson wrote:
"comments that innate ability may explain why few women reach top science posts" I'm not a fan of political correctness, but someone in his position shouldn't be saying things like that. I don't think this is some coordinated suppression of his thoughts by the left though.
That's more than likely a correct statement. In the real world, women typically shy away from math and there certainly is no conspiracy to discourage them. If there were really freedom of speech in univiersities as the left likes to claim, then he should be able to say something like that. And he was actually pushed out of office after the board gave him a vote of no confidence after he made that statement. So yes, it was part of a coordinated suppression of his thoughts by the left.
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They're both unlikely, but the leftists supporting Osama is far more unlikely because there's no motivation for them to do so, and even if they did have a motivation, how did they manage to coordinate their own activities when they don't even had a leader? On the other hand, it's not likely that Bush planned 9/11 with Osama so that he could avenge his father and get some oil. It wouldn't be the least bit surprising for him to take advantage of huge support after 9/11 though.
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
« eikonoklastes »
They didn't support him before 9/11, but they make no efforts to attack him or his ideology because they share a common enemy: Bush.
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No, but the word "required" is mentioned. Obviously to anyone with any sense, that means required by law (as where else would such a requirement come?). So if in that quote Bush says that wiretapping requires a court order, and you claim that the statement is a lie, then you're saying that a court order is actually not required for wiretapping.
jasontg wrote:
What do they say assuming does?
jasontg wrote:
By saying that he lied when he said "wiretaps require court orders" would be to imply that there are wiretaps without court orders.
:laugh: Ironic...Since he never made that statement, that means you're making assumptions about his intentions.
espeir wrote:
...Since he never made that statement
So now you're accusing me of making stuff up? :wtf: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/20040420-2.html[^] Straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak.
espeir wrote:
Obviously to anyone with any sense
:laugh: Be that as it may, I was not talking about or implying anything about the legality of any wiretaps. How about this.... -Now that we know that Bush did indeed say "wiretaps require court orders" -And you assert that "require" must mean "by law" -And it is generally agreed upon that there are wiretaps that have been conducted without court orders
espeir wrote:
(context aside)
.....where does that leave us? And no, I'm not trying to imply that wiretaps without court orders are illegal. -J
Think of a computer program. Somewhere, there is one key instruction, and everything else is just functions calling themselves, or brackets billowing out endlessly through an infinite address space. What happens when the brackets collapse? Where's the final 'end if'? Is any of this making sense? -Ford Prefect