Afghan convert going to get death sentence?
-
All history says is that there have been fewer religious governments recently than secular. Christian desire to repress others is in fact tempered in large part by secular government, and that still doesn't stop them from wanting to legislate or coerce rights away from others based solely on their beliefs. Totalitarianism breeds violence. The demand that people accept an institutionalized belief system without question breeds violence. Violence is not inherent in secular or religious government, but religion is more likely from the start to demand acceptance without question. Name a religious democracy, one that is democratic more than just in name.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Name a religious democracy, one that is democratic more than just in name.
Try to keep up. The comparison is not religious government vs. secular governments. The comparison is religion-backed violence vs. secular-backed violence. Oh, and just to add...Secular governments rose to power based on the secular movements behind them. The reason there haven't been any theistic governments lately is because religion (unlike its secular counterpart) has not been driven to acquire power through violence. Islam is the exception, of course. -- modified at 15:58 Friday 24th March, 2006
-
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Name a religious democracy, one that is democratic more than just in name.
Try to keep up. The comparison is not religious government vs. secular governments. The comparison is religion-backed violence vs. secular-backed violence. Oh, and just to add...Secular governments rose to power based on the secular movements behind them. The reason there haven't been any theistic governments lately is because religion (unlike its secular counterpart) has not been driven to acquire power through violence. Islam is the exception, of course. -- modified at 15:58 Friday 24th March, 2006
espeir wrote:
Try to keep up. The comparison is not religious government vs. secular governments. The comparison is religion-backed violence vs. secular-backed violence.
Actually, you snarky jackass, look back a few messages and you will find:
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
Name as many religions you can which haven't violated basic human rights at some point in time.
Human rights, not just violence.
espeir wrote:
Oh, and just to add...Secular governments rose to power based on the secular movements behind them. The reason there haven't been any theistic governments lately is because religion (unlike its secular counterpart) has not been driven to acquire power through violence. Islam is the exception, of course.
So what is religion's "secular counterpart"? Wait, let me guess...COMMUNISM!!! The reason there haven't been any theistic governments lately is because technology, travel, and education are making populations more diverse, and diversity precludes monotheism.
-
I think the best point to be made is that ANY form of power will be corrupted and abuses will happen. Cloak it how you want its just mankind being mankind. Some people take more offense if it is cloaked in religiosity than if it is cloaked in motherland statist symbolism but it is still all about controlling those you have power over. And mankinds track record on that isn't what you would call stellar. Enough said. (At least by me!) (Or until I can make another joke!) I'm pretty sure I would not like to live in a world in which I would never be offended. I am absolutely certain I don't want to live in a world in which you would never be offended. Dave
-
When did W invade France? :confused:
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
When did W invade France?
Yeah, WTF, when did W invade France?
-
Jon Newman wrote:
Sorry, I'm British...we don't have as much experience with nukes as you.
We know. That's partially why we're still a super power and you're not.
-
Jesus preached violence? That's news to me.
espeir wrote:
Jesus preached violence? That's news to me.
Hmm, have you never read the bible? Here are a few examples of Jesus quotations from the new testament. Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. Matthew 13:41-42 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:51 And I shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
-
espeir wrote:
Jesus preached violence? That's news to me.
Hmm, have you never read the bible? Here are a few examples of Jesus quotations from the new testament. Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. Matthew 13:41-42 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:51 And I shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Matthew 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you. Doesnt that seem to be a contradiction? I dont understand why that the bible would say two things at once like that. I think it may be that there some inaccuracies in the translation.
-
espeir wrote:
Jesus preached violence? That's news to me.
Hmm, have you never read the bible? Here are a few examples of Jesus quotations from the new testament. Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. Matthew 13:41-42 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:51 And I shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.Meaning that His teachings, although peaceful in what they call us to do, will cause divisions and enmity, and even violence against those who follow them.
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
Matthew 10:39
He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.Not sure how this one could be taken to have anything to do with violence... but perhaps what you're thinking about is how people talk about soldiers giving their lives for a cause. Soldiers don't just give their lives; they take lives as well. This isn't what Jesus was talking about. He was talking about being willing to give up everything we have if necessary, to gain true life in Him.
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
Matthew 13:41-42
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.This is talking about God's final judgement of evildoers (those who choose, as a way of life, to violate His commandment to love one another). It is not talking about anything that we should do here on earth.
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
Matthew 24:51
And I shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.Again, having to do with the judgement of evildoers at the end. You can see the verse in its context here[^].
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
Luke 19:27
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.This is taken from a story[^] that Jesus told, and does not have to do with anything that Jesus
-
espeir wrote:
You need to get an edumacation.
You sure got him with that one. :doh:
IIRC, it is a line from "The Simpsons" ColinMackay.net Scottish Developers are looking for speakers for user group sessions over the next few months. Do you want to know more?
-
Matthew 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you. Doesnt that seem to be a contradiction? I dont understand why that the bible would say two things at once like that. I think it may be that there some inaccuracies in the translation.
Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
Doesnt that seem to be a contradiction? I dont understand why that the bible would say two things at once like that.
The two clauses are variations on the same theme. First, love your enemies means to personally forgive those who do you wrong. This applies on a personal level, i.e. to your neighbors, relative and acquaintances. Second, pray for those who persecute you means to ask God to forgive those who do you wrong. This applies on an impersonal level, i.e. to the Romans and others who persecuted the followers of Christ.
-
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.Meaning that His teachings, although peaceful in what they call us to do, will cause divisions and enmity, and even violence against those who follow them.
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
Matthew 10:39
He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.Not sure how this one could be taken to have anything to do with violence... but perhaps what you're thinking about is how people talk about soldiers giving their lives for a cause. Soldiers don't just give their lives; they take lives as well. This isn't what Jesus was talking about. He was talking about being willing to give up everything we have if necessary, to gain true life in Him.
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
Matthew 13:41-42
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.This is talking about God's final judgement of evildoers (those who choose, as a way of life, to violate His commandment to love one another). It is not talking about anything that we should do here on earth.
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
Matthew 24:51
And I shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.Again, having to do with the judgement of evildoers at the end. You can see the verse in its context here[^].
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
Luke 19:27
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.This is taken from a story[^] that Jesus told, and does not have to do with anything that Jesus
J. Dunlap wrote:
Ed Gadziemski wrote: Matthew 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. Not sure how this one could be taken to have anything to do with violence... but perhaps what you're thinking about is how people talk about soldiers giving their lives for a cause. Soldiers don't just give their lives; they take lives as well. This isn't what Jesus was talking about. He was talking about being willing to give up everything we have if necessary, to gain true life in Him.
"He that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." That statement has been used to recruit soldiers for Christian holy wars throughout history. It is not much different than the Muslim statement that someone who loses his life while battling infidels achieves martyrdom.
-
J. Dunlap wrote:
Ed Gadziemski wrote: Matthew 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. Not sure how this one could be taken to have anything to do with violence... but perhaps what you're thinking about is how people talk about soldiers giving their lives for a cause. Soldiers don't just give their lives; they take lives as well. This isn't what Jesus was talking about. He was talking about being willing to give up everything we have if necessary, to gain true life in Him.
"He that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." That statement has been used to recruit soldiers for Christian holy wars throughout history. It is not much different than the Muslim statement that someone who loses his life while battling infidels achieves martyrdom.
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
That statement has been used to recruit soldiers for Christian holy wars throughout history.
Yes, but incorrectly. They focus on the "losing your life" part, and neglect to mention that nowhere does Jesus tell us to kill. The "losing your life" part is the justifiable part of war, because everyone knows that giving your life for a sufficient cause is an honorable and heroic thing - whether it be to save someone from a burning building, to keep them from drowning, or whatever. So they focus on that, rather than the killing part, which is not justifiable, and which Jesus commanded against.
Let's look at the verse in context:
And He was saying to them all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it. For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits himself?"
So, it is clearly talking about denying ourselves, our aspirations, our desires, our wants, and counting them all as the price to be paid in order to gain true life. When Jesus took up and carried His cross, He was heading for death - not just any death, to lay down His life for us. That is what Jesus has called all of His followers to - to take up our cross daily, to deny ourselves everything, even life itself if need be, in order to follow His example of love, compassion, service, and self-sacrifice for the good of others.
-- modified at 22:20 Saturday 25th March, 2006
-
Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
Doesnt that seem to be a contradiction? I dont understand why that the bible would say two things at once like that.
The two clauses are variations on the same theme. First, love your enemies means to personally forgive those who do you wrong. This applies on a personal level, i.e. to your neighbors, relative and acquaintances. Second, pray for those who persecute you means to ask God to forgive those who do you wrong. This applies on an impersonal level, i.e. to the Romans and others who persecuted the followers of Christ.
I think he was saying that the verse he quoted is a direct contradiction to the verses you quoted. ---sig---
Might I suggest that the universe was always the size of the cosmos. It is just that at one point the cosmos was the size of a marble. -- Colin Angus Mackay -
espeir wrote:
Jesus preached violence? That's news to me.
Hmm, have you never read the bible? Here are a few examples of Jesus quotations from the new testament. Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. Matthew 13:41-42 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:51 And I shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
Matthew 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
This isn't about violence at all. ---sig---
Might I suggest that the universe was always the size of the cosmos. It is just that at one point the cosmos was the size of a marble. -- Colin Angus Mackay