Atheism , religion , ID etc
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Chris Losinger wrote:
i claimed that? where? i certainly don't think that. i have a perfectly fine framework - i just didn't get it from any religion and i don't need to have it maintained or bolstered or whatever by some ghost.
Earlier you defended the idea that Atheists can have a moral framework. However, you personally having a moral framework is not useful. For morality to be effective, it needs to be derived from a higher authority so that society agrees on what is moral and what is not. Otherwise, your neighbor could determine that murder is moral and whack you.
Chris Losinger wrote:
err... if religion was the solution to that stuff, no religious person would ever commit a crime. i never said people are good at choosing right from wrong in all circumstances. people decide what they want more: to be good, or to feel good. they often choose the latter. they always have, they always will.
That's not the case. Religion, recognizing a higher authority, compels people to condemn immorality. So if someone does commit a crime, moral sensibilities prompt society to punish that crime. I'm not saying the same is not true of secular morality, but secular morality is self-defined morality which results in moral relativism which results in immorality.
Chris Losinger wrote:
they use it as a punishment. we don't eat people for punishment, true. instead, we electrocute people, break their necks, blow them into fine red mist with bombs, incinerate them with napalm, perforate them with guns, poison them, torture them to death. we take pictures of this, put it on CD-Rs and give it to our friends. up until very recently, public executions were a huge crowd pleaser in this country. you could buy souveniers.
Every society has some concept of justice and punishment (which should be distinguished from war). However, your example only supports my claim that morality is not innate. If you believe that capital punishment is immoral because it kills a murderer and I believe that it is moral because justice is served, then we disagree at a very fundamental level. That demonstrates that morality does not come from within. It comes from the repsective surroundings we grew up in.
Chris Losinger wrote:
we killed, at a minimum, 100,000 people in one shot in Hiroshima. most of those people were civilians. tens of t
espeir wrote:
For morality to be effective, it needs to be derived from a higher authority so that society agrees on what is moral and what is not. Otherwise, your neighbor could determine that murder is moral and whack you
nonsense. anyone who realizes other people are alive too knows murder is wrong. that people don't always care is a different matter - and one your religion hasn't, despite having 2000 years to work at it, fixed.
espeir wrote:
but secular morality is self-defined morality which results in moral relativism which results in immorality.
sheer nonsense. it would be hard to make so few words as that add up to a greater number of unsupported conclusions.
espeir wrote:
However, your example only supports my claim that morality is not innate.
the fact that they have the death penalty means that they have crimes that are severe enough to be worthy of death. sounds like morality to me. sounds like christian morality even. cannibalism as a punishment is simply the death penalty with an added insult to the survivors. big deal. once i'm dead you can have me stuffed and mounted on the roof of KFC for all i care. the fact that you're going to kill me is the only part that really matters. i'm sure there's a widely-ignored commandment about killing, somewhere.
espeir wrote:
That act also saved an estimated million more. Japanese morality was derived from an emperor.
go tell the innocent dead. go explain your justification. i'm sure they'll be very interested. six year olds have pretty good grasps of foreign policy (espcially the ghosts of six year olds!). maybe you can read them the part of the bible that justifies it - it'll be good for them to learn where your superior morality derives from.
espeir wrote:
No, you can attribute that to moral relativism. Compare movies today to movies 60 years ago when moral relativism had not yet taken hold.
you mean all those detective movies about murderers, the western gunfights, and WWII battle movies ? yeah... good stuff. those were the days: back when killing was only in black and white, as god intended it. well, thankfully there aren't more "atheists" like myself around, or we'd all go around thinking "no, maybe the lives of innocent children shoul
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andy brummer wrote:
Just because evolution produces something adapted to a specific niche, from an earlier form, it doesn't mean the later form is superior.
I never said it was superior. Only that those societies which were religious out competed any that were not. I think it is clear obvious that the underlieing laws of the universe clearly prefer religious observers... ;) "You get that which you tolerate" -- modified at 12:26 Friday 7th April, 2006
Stan Shannon wrote:
those societies which were religious out competed any that were not
Can you name any early society that did not have a mythology? North American Native Indians belive(d) in animal spirits, the Norse believed in a pantheon of gods, the Mayans believed in many gods. I can't think of any early societies that were agnostic or atheist. Lack of knowledge leads to superstition, superstition grows up to become religion.
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
« eikonoklastes »
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In the larger scope of things: While the USSR (as a short-term political failure) may have officially preached "atheism", the individual societies enveloped under Soviet control were all established with strong religious under-pinnings and continue their religious roots today. "If the world should blow itself up, the last audible voice would be that of an expert saying it can't be done." - Peter Ustinov
Correction. They have resumed today.
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I've been watching this conversation develop in the SB and I have noticed several points being thrown around that the theory of evolution is a proven fact. To believe so is a just a leap of faith as big as a belief in God (or any other deity). Darwin’s tests of evolution proved several things but generally not what most people think. For instance, one large experiment dealt with pigeons. Darwin bred these pigeons so that offspring (the mutants) would have different features than its parents. However, after thousands of tests Darwin was still not able to produce a new ‘species’ of bird. Ok, his test was too controlled so he let the all of the mutants back in with the originals and the offspring of this breeding over several generations came back with the result that all of the birds looked like the originals. Some of you might be thinking “Change happens over long periods of time with generations upon generations of changes making a new species.” To answer this point, Darwin also tested with fruit flies, a simpler organism with a lot more generations in a given time than pigeons. Unfortunately for Darwin, he may have been able to breed fruit flies with bigger or smaller wings, different colors, etc. However, after all of these tests the new flies were still the same species of fruit fly. He also reintroduced these to the control sample of flies and all of the flies eventually became just like the original. Point Proven: If a mutant of a species appears on the scene, it (and its mutation) will be bred out of the scene. Secondly, intermingling of species is not going to cause evolutionary change. If breeding between horses and donkeys will bear mules and lions and tigers will bear ligers (All Napoleon Dynamite jokes aside). Inter-species in most cases will not occur and if it does the offspring are sterile and cannot pass its genes to another generation. Point Proven: Changes that happen because of inter-specie mixing (if they occur) will not be passed on to future generations because of sterility. There are more points I could bring up but this post is long enough. I am not trying to prove that a supernatural power does exist. The point of this post was to try to point out that believing in evolution is a leap of faith and is not proven by undeniable evidence. Brett A. Whittington Application Developer
bwhittington wrote:
Point Proven: If a mutant of a species appears on the scene, it (and its mutation) will be bred out of the scene.
What does that have to do with evolutionary theory? Theoritically, a new species will not arise until random genetic drift over time between the two populations has rendered them incapable of interbreeding. The theory of evolution does not require that just because a species has been bred for different attributes doesn't mean it will automatically become a new species.
bwhittington wrote:
intermingling of species is not going to cause evolutionary change. If breeding between horses and donkeys will bear mules and lions and tigers will bear ligers (All Napoleon Dynamite jokes aside). Inter-species in most cases will not occur and if it does the offspring are sterile and cannot pass its genes to another generation.
I don't recall that ever being advanced as a mechanism for evolutionary change. "You get that which you tolerate"
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Stan Shannon wrote:
those societies which were religious out competed any that were not
Can you name any early society that did not have a mythology? North American Native Indians belive(d) in animal spirits, the Norse believed in a pantheon of gods, the Mayans believed in many gods. I can't think of any early societies that were agnostic or atheist. Lack of knowledge leads to superstition, superstition grows up to become religion.
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
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Daniel R Ferguson wrote:
I can't think of any early societies that were agnostic or atheist.
Exactly! :-D
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Stan Shannon wrote:
societies which were religious out competed any that were not.
Got any examples of "any that were not"?? "If the world should blow itself up, the last audible voice would be that of an expert saying it can't be done." - Peter Ustinov
I don't believe I'm required to give any examples. I assert that had athiesm been a means by which a healthy society could have florished and competed, some examples of such societies would be found. That is my hypothesis. I'll leave it to you to test. "You get that which you tolerate"
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Stan Shannon wrote:
those societies which were religious out competed any that were not
Can you name any early society that did not have a mythology? North American Native Indians belive(d) in animal spirits, the Norse believed in a pantheon of gods, the Mayans believed in many gods. I can't think of any early societies that were agnostic or atheist. Lack of knowledge leads to superstition, superstition grows up to become religion.
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
« eikonoklastes »
Daniel R Ferguson wrote:
superstition grows up to become religion.
Why? Why doesn't it grow up to be athiesm? "You get that which you tolerate"
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Hey! I'm a signature!
Well, if anyone here knows crazy then it's definitely you. ;P
If evidence reaches a conclusion then it makes sense. If it doesn't, it's just lame to go on TRYING to prove a theory that you made up when all the evidence points the other way. That's how crazy is made. -espeir
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I don't believe I'm required to give any examples. I assert that had athiesm been a means by which a healthy society could have florished and competed, some examples of such societies would be found. That is my hypothesis. I'll leave it to you to test. "You get that which you tolerate"
Stan Shannon wrote:
I don't believe I'm required to give any examples.
You are if you want to be taken seriously. It's my contention that ALL early societies were religious (primarily due to ignorance). "If the world should blow itself up, the last audible voice would be that of an expert saying it can't be done." - Peter Ustinov
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Daniel R Ferguson wrote:
superstition grows up to become religion.
Why? Why doesn't it grow up to be athiesm? "You get that which you tolerate"
Stan Shannon wrote:
Why doesn't it grow up to be athiesm?
Because the folks spreading the superstition see the power & control it enables and naturally grow it into a full blown religion. ;) "If the world should blow itself up, the last audible voice would be that of an expert saying it can't be done." - Peter Ustinov
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Stan Shannon wrote:
But it is difficult to avoid a conclusion that something was 'built into' the emergent potential of the universe for some reason.
Why does there need to be a reason? Who is to say that there are not other universes whose initial conditions do not lead to life? Who is to say that this universe does not contain other life forms with a completely different concept of "morality"? Who is to say that our concept of morality is even a "correct" one? (I would argue that it is only "correct" for us to the extent that it enhances the likelyhood of the survival of our species, and that that is in fact the fundamental source of that concept - that which is clearly immoral is that which, applied universally, has a negative impact on the chances of our survival. Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power Eric Hoffer All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke
Rob Graham wrote:
Why does there need to be a reason?
I didn't say there 'needs' to be a reason, only that emergent properties, consciously or not, suggest purpose by the mere fact of their emerging. Why does consciousness exist? Why does the universe contain consciousness?
Rob Graham wrote:
Who is to say that there are not other universes whose initial conditions do not lead to life?
No one - which is kind of the point.
Rob Graham wrote:
Who is to say that this universe does not contain other life forms with a completely different concept of "morality"?
Certainly not me. This post didn't refer to morality.
Rob Graham wrote:
I would argue that it is only "correct" for us to the extent that it enhances the likelyhood of the survival of our species, and that that is in fact the fundamental source of that concept - that which is clearly immoral is that which, applied universally, has a negative impact on the chances of our survival.
I don't disagree with that. "You get that which you tolerate"
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Stan Shannon wrote:
I don't believe I'm required to give any examples.
You are if you want to be taken seriously. It's my contention that ALL early societies were religious (primarily due to ignorance). "If the world should blow itself up, the last audible voice would be that of an expert saying it can't be done." - Peter Ustinov
Mike Mullikin wrote:
You are if you want to be taken seriously.
No I'm not. The abscence of primitive athiestic societies is my evidence.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
It's my contention that ALL early societies were religious (primarily due to ignorance).
Than obviously, religion has been a better response to ignorance than athiesm is. If athiesm was a more advantageious response to ignorace than religion, it simply stands to reason that it would have been employed by someone, somewhere. "You get that which you tolerate"
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espeir wrote:
For morality to be effective, it needs to be derived from a higher authority so that society agrees on what is moral and what is not. Otherwise, your neighbor could determine that murder is moral and whack you
nonsense. anyone who realizes other people are alive too knows murder is wrong. that people don't always care is a different matter - and one your religion hasn't, despite having 2000 years to work at it, fixed.
espeir wrote:
but secular morality is self-defined morality which results in moral relativism which results in immorality.
sheer nonsense. it would be hard to make so few words as that add up to a greater number of unsupported conclusions.
espeir wrote:
However, your example only supports my claim that morality is not innate.
the fact that they have the death penalty means that they have crimes that are severe enough to be worthy of death. sounds like morality to me. sounds like christian morality even. cannibalism as a punishment is simply the death penalty with an added insult to the survivors. big deal. once i'm dead you can have me stuffed and mounted on the roof of KFC for all i care. the fact that you're going to kill me is the only part that really matters. i'm sure there's a widely-ignored commandment about killing, somewhere.
espeir wrote:
That act also saved an estimated million more. Japanese morality was derived from an emperor.
go tell the innocent dead. go explain your justification. i'm sure they'll be very interested. six year olds have pretty good grasps of foreign policy (espcially the ghosts of six year olds!). maybe you can read them the part of the bible that justifies it - it'll be good for them to learn where your superior morality derives from.
espeir wrote:
No, you can attribute that to moral relativism. Compare movies today to movies 60 years ago when moral relativism had not yet taken hold.
you mean all those detective movies about murderers, the western gunfights, and WWII battle movies ? yeah... good stuff. those were the days: back when killing was only in black and white, as god intended it. well, thankfully there aren't more "atheists" like myself around, or we'd all go around thinking "no, maybe the lives of innocent children shoul
Chris Losinger wrote:
nonsense. anyone who realizes other people are alive too knows murder is wrong. that people don't always care is a different matter - and one your religion hasn't, despite having 2000 years to work at it, fixed.
That's absolutely false. Just look at Saddam Hussein and his former regime. That government was run by secularists and they believed murder to be just fine.
Chris Losinger wrote:
sheer nonsense. it would be hard to make so few words as that add up to a greater number of unsupported conclusions.
You dismiss it without evidence. However, there are numerous examples of societies without absolute moral authorities that inevitably declined morally over time. Islam is the notable exception on the religious side, where their society has descended because of an absolute moral authority. However, the Muslim religion lacks a central religious authority to sensibly interpret thir books.
Chris Losinger wrote:
go tell the innocent dead. go explain your justification. i'm sure they'll be very interested. six year olds have pretty good grasps of foreign policy (espcially the ghosts of six year olds!). maybe you can read them the part of the bible that justifies it - it'll be good for them to learn where your superior morality derives from.
So you're saying that you would rather America invaded mainland Japan and caused 1 million death (including numerous innocent children)? Or are you saying that the US just shouldn't have gotten involved and allowed Nazi Germany to reign supreme? Those are really the only other options. If you're going to criticize our use of the bomb, you need to prefer the other side of that equation.
Chris Losinger wrote:
you mean all those detective movies about murderers, the western gunfights, and WWII battle movies ? yeah... good stuff. back when killing was only in black and white.
yes, actually if you watch an old western, you'll see that it's always a moral story. There's a bad guy (as there always is). Then there's a good guy who puts a stop to the bad guy. In fact that's the theme of pretty much every action movie 60 years ago. That's a far cry from the endless supply of "Saw" type movies that have no morally redemptive quality to them. Texas chainsaw massacre was released in 1974...just a few years after atheism's mainstrea
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bwhittington wrote:
The point of this post was to try to point out that believing in evolution is a leap of faith and is not proven by undeniable evidence.
Undeniable evidence? Maybe not, but that's why evolution is considered a scientific theory not a natural law such as gravity. At the same time, science can produce boat-loads of real evidence that supports the theory of evolution. While religion cannot produce a shred of real evidence that supports the existance of any god. "If the world should blow itself up, the last audible voice would be that of an expert saying it can't be done." - Peter Ustinov
I don't see fossils of dead animals as being very good evidence of the theory sure it gives us some idea of some animals that have died out but how do we know that our ancestors were not living at that time too. (I am not talking about primates either.) Fossil evidence should only be taken into account if there was a way to know of everything that lived during a period of time. Who is to say humans did not live back in the time of dinosaurs. Just because we have not found any fossils does not imply that we did not exist. It is rare enough to find fossils of animals because the process to preserve them takes the right conditions. To able to certainly say we as humans did not exist is if we had fossil records of every species of living thing that lived during a certain time period. It would be hard enough now to find evidence because we still do not know of every living thing on this earth. Everyday new insects are found. To summarize, because we cannot prove we did not exist during the time of dinosaurs we cannot prove we evolved from apes. Brett A. Whittington Application Developer
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Why doesn't it grow up to be athiesm?
Because the folks spreading the superstition see the power & control it enables and naturally grow it into a full blown religion. ;) "If the world should blow itself up, the last audible voice would be that of an expert saying it can't be done." - Peter Ustinov
Mike Mullikin wrote:
Because the folks spreading the superstition see the power & control it enables and naturally grow it into a full blown religion.
Well, power and control are inhrent to any complex social order. So, yeah, I suppose that might well be part of the equation. Maybe that is why athiestic societies don't exist long enough to leave evidence of thier existence. ;P "You get that which you tolerate"
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
You are if you want to be taken seriously.
No I'm not. The abscence of primitive athiestic societies is my evidence.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
It's my contention that ALL early societies were religious (primarily due to ignorance).
Than obviously, religion has been a better response to ignorance than athiesm is. If athiesm was a more advantageious response to ignorace than religion, it simply stands to reason that it would have been employed by someone, somewhere. "You get that which you tolerate"
Stan Shannon wrote:
Than obviously, religion has been a better response to ignorance than athiesm is.
That's not logical. Science had not yet advanced to the point that we could explain certain phenomenon. Religion provided the path of least resistance. It was easier to say "Birds can fly because God made it so", than to research/develop/test aeronautical principles. A better statement: "At that time, religion was a "better" response to ignorance than atheism." Times change. "If the world should blow itself up, the last audible voice would be that of an expert saying it can't be done." - Peter Ustinov
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bwhittington wrote:
Point Proven: If a mutant of a species appears on the scene, it (and its mutation) will be bred out of the scene.
That's not proven at all. Mutations introduce new information for natural selection to work on. Over any short period of time, you are unlikely to produce a significantly different creature because mutation is adding differences slowly. Over a short period of time, all you are doing is redistributing the existing genetic alleles. The claim that mutations are "bred out of the scene" is true if the mutation is harmful. It's inaccurate to say that it's always eliminated. I know creationists like to point-out the problem of using sickle-cell anemia as an example of evolution, but I'm going to use it to make a very limited point. In general, sickle-cell anemia is harmful to humans; people with two copies of the allele will die. However, a person with a single copy of the sickle-cell anemia allele are more likely to survive malaria. More specifically, they are ten times less likely to die from malaria. In malaria-prone areas, the result is that a certain level of sickle-cell anemia genes in the population is benefitial. You end up with a balancing act: people with two copies of the sickle-cell anemia allele are going to die (usually between 20 and 40), people with zero copies of the sickle-cell anemia allele are more likely to be killed by malaria, but people with one copy of the gene are the most likely to survive. And, it's true that sickle-cell anemia is quite common in some malaria-prone areas (almost 10% of Africans have the sickle-cell anemia gene). Which brings me to my point: sickle-cell anemia is a mutation which was not "bred out of the scene" (as you say happens to all mutations). ----------------------------------------------------- Empires Of Steel[^]
I can see your point but I disagree. A human with the genes for sickle-cell anemia is still a human correct? If we could humanely do an experiment of people with the allele and could introduce them into a “normal” population, the offspring of that person would eventually be bred back in to a “normal” human. And I cannot see into the future but would this defect mutate us humans into another species or would we still be humans with a genetic defect? I do not know and neither of us are going to live long enough to find out. Brett A. Whittington Application Developer
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I don't see fossils of dead animals as being very good evidence of the theory sure it gives us some idea of some animals that have died out but how do we know that our ancestors were not living at that time too. (I am not talking about primates either.) Fossil evidence should only be taken into account if there was a way to know of everything that lived during a period of time. Who is to say humans did not live back in the time of dinosaurs. Just because we have not found any fossils does not imply that we did not exist. It is rare enough to find fossils of animals because the process to preserve them takes the right conditions. To able to certainly say we as humans did not exist is if we had fossil records of every species of living thing that lived during a certain time period. It would be hard enough now to find evidence because we still do not know of every living thing on this earth. Everyday new insects are found. To summarize, because we cannot prove we did not exist during the time of dinosaurs we cannot prove we evolved from apes. Brett A. Whittington Application Developer
But fossils certainly provide a source of evidence in support of the theory. The theory of evolution is supported by massive amounts of direct, and indirect evidence. Its fine to reject the theory of evolution, but you are required to provide an alternative which explains all the observable phenomenon as concisely and consistently as the theory of evolution does. "You get that which you tolerate"
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bwhittington wrote:
Point Proven: If a mutant of a species appears on the scene, it (and its mutation) will be bred out of the scene.
What does that have to do with evolutionary theory? Theoritically, a new species will not arise until random genetic drift over time between the two populations has rendered them incapable of interbreeding. The theory of evolution does not require that just because a species has been bred for different attributes doesn't mean it will automatically become a new species.
bwhittington wrote:
intermingling of species is not going to cause evolutionary change. If breeding between horses and donkeys will bear mules and lions and tigers will bear ligers (All Napoleon Dynamite jokes aside). Inter-species in most cases will not occur and if it does the offspring are sterile and cannot pass its genes to another generation.
I don't recall that ever being advanced as a mechanism for evolutionary change. "You get that which you tolerate"
Stan Shannon wrote:
What does that have to do with evolutionary theory? Theoritically, a new species will not arise until random genetic drift over time between the two populations has rendered them incapable of interbreeding. The theory of evolution does not require that just because a species has been bred for different attributes doesn't mean it will automatically become a new species.
I'll be honest and say I do not have a response at this time. I'll have to do some more research. Brett A. Whittington Application Developer
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Chris Losinger wrote:
nonsense. anyone who realizes other people are alive too knows murder is wrong. that people don't always care is a different matter - and one your religion hasn't, despite having 2000 years to work at it, fixed.
That's absolutely false. Just look at Saddam Hussein and his former regime. That government was run by secularists and they believed murder to be just fine.
Chris Losinger wrote:
sheer nonsense. it would be hard to make so few words as that add up to a greater number of unsupported conclusions.
You dismiss it without evidence. However, there are numerous examples of societies without absolute moral authorities that inevitably declined morally over time. Islam is the notable exception on the religious side, where their society has descended because of an absolute moral authority. However, the Muslim religion lacks a central religious authority to sensibly interpret thir books.
Chris Losinger wrote:
go tell the innocent dead. go explain your justification. i'm sure they'll be very interested. six year olds have pretty good grasps of foreign policy (espcially the ghosts of six year olds!). maybe you can read them the part of the bible that justifies it - it'll be good for them to learn where your superior morality derives from.
So you're saying that you would rather America invaded mainland Japan and caused 1 million death (including numerous innocent children)? Or are you saying that the US just shouldn't have gotten involved and allowed Nazi Germany to reign supreme? Those are really the only other options. If you're going to criticize our use of the bomb, you need to prefer the other side of that equation.
Chris Losinger wrote:
you mean all those detective movies about murderers, the western gunfights, and WWII battle movies ? yeah... good stuff. back when killing was only in black and white.
yes, actually if you watch an old western, you'll see that it's always a moral story. There's a bad guy (as there always is). Then there's a good guy who puts a stop to the bad guy. In fact that's the theme of pretty much every action movie 60 years ago. That's a far cry from the endless supply of "Saw" type movies that have no morally redemptive quality to them. Texas chainsaw massacre was released in 1974...just a few years after atheism's mainstrea
espeir wrote:
That's absolutely false.
christians are still committing crimes. how come that special morality hasn't stopped them ? if it's so superior to other moralities, shouldn't there be some, ya know, evidence ?
espeir wrote:
However, the Muslim religion lacks a central religious authority to sensibly interpret thir books.
not that i want to go down this road... there are realtively few branches of christianity that have a "central authority" to interpret things for them. getting away from such a central authority was the root of the Protestant Reformation. and while i'm not an islamic scholar, i believe within islam, "imam" and "ayatollah" are the people who do the central interpreting for the various sects.
espeir wrote:
Those are really the only other options.
not really. but i'm asking you to go to your bible or your special superior morality and find the justification for killing 30,000 children in the blink of an eye. take the example (from below in the thread) of the guy walking past the burning building (does he save the child or not?) - except the guy in this case doesn't just walk by the burning building with 1 child in it. no, this time he blows up 1,000 busy day-care centers in one day (we'll give him 24 hours to do it, since it would be tough for him to get them all in 1/100th of a second). i don't think there is any valid reason. and i don't want any part of any "morality" that would try to justify such an action - and here i sit with my hollow and baseless morals. woe is me.
espeir wrote:
That's a far cry from the endless supply of "Saw" type movies that have no morally redemptive quality to them
i'm not arguing that those are good movies. i'm saying your superior morality should have put a stop to it by now. after all, America is a country where over 80% of the people claim to be christian, and less than 3% claim to be either atheist or agnostic. Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker -- modified at 20:15 Friday 7th April, 2006