When does it end?
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The Crusades *used* religion to motivate the masses. They were not created for religious purposes. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
The first Crusade was started by Pope Urban II in 1096 AD to reclaim the Holy lands from the Turks. So we have the pope involved from the onset. I think it's naive to think that, at least in part, there was no religious motivation. Steve
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Just because of Cardinal Francis Arinze I'm going to buy the book and watch the movie. Steve
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Just because of Cardinal Francis Arinze I'm going to buy the book and watch the movie. Steve
Stephen Hewitt wrote:
Just because of Cardinal Francis Arinze I'm going to buy the book and watch the movie.
Maybe he gets a percentage of the royalty - in that case, he'd be mighty happy about this I think. :-D Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
The Ultimate Grid - The #1 MFC grid out there! -
Stephen Hewitt wrote:
Just because of Cardinal Francis Arinze I'm going to buy the book and watch the movie.
Maybe he gets a percentage of the royalty - in that case, he'd be mighty happy about this I think. :-D Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
The Ultimate Grid - The #1 MFC grid out there!Now that's smart: buying shares then slamming the book/movie to increase the value. Steve
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The first Crusade was started by Pope Urban II in 1096 AD to reclaim the Holy lands from the Turks. So we have the pope involved from the onset. I think it's naive to think that, at least in part, there was no religious motivation. Steve
I'd suggest it naive to say that the Pope in 1096 was mainly concerned with religion, but that's cool. :) Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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The amount of violence throughout human history caused by religion is not even a fraction of a percent of that caused by completely secular reasons. Makeing such a big deal out of religious violence, rather than concentrating on the far more onerous issues of secular violence is proof that the left is not trying to solve the problem of violence, it is trying to solve the "problem" of religion. If you are so brainwashed that you cannot see that, I would suggest that you are the one with the seious problems. "You get that which you tolerate"
Stan Shannon wrote:
The amount of violence throughout human history caused by religion
The original post made no reference as to the "Amount" historically. You protest to much.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Makeing such a big deal out of religious violence
It's a shame you weren't present to agrue the same against those that planned murder and cried, "It is Gods Will!". X|
"What classes are you using ? You shouldn't call stuff if you have no idea what it does" Christian Graus in the C# forum led mike
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I'd suggest it naive to say that the Pope in 1096 was mainly concerned with religion, but that's cool. :) Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
I accept that politics is not always far from the minds of religious leaders. But that's the point - The church has turned many politcal issues into religious ones. Steve
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So the crusades, the inquisition, the 19th century witch burnings and the current islamist terrorism are all myths? Or are you suggesting that religious zealotry was merely a tool manipulated to accomplish some political aim behind all of these? We need to graduate from the ridiculous notion that greed is some kind of elixir for capitalism - it's the downfall of capitalism. Self-interest, maybe, but self-interest run amok does not serve anyone. The core value of conscious capitalism is enlightened self-interest. Patricia Aburdene -- modified at 12:22 Sunday 7th May, 2006 (I really need to work on my typing skills)
Personally, I would even add that Comunism and Fascism are also some kind of religions, with their own dogmas (class strugle, proletariat's dictature, vital space etc.) their own churches (the parties) their own messiahas (Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Il Duce, Hitler, Marx) their version of infidels (burgeoisie, jews and the other side) and their own promisse of paradise (the "classless society" and the Reich). Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons. Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970) Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950) Patriotism is often an arbitrary veneration of real estate above principles. George Jean Nathan (1882 - 1958) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Samuel Johnson (1709 - 1784)
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I accept that politics is not always far from the minds of religious leaders. But that's the point - The church has turned many politcal issues into religious ones. Steve
Stephen Hewitt wrote:
The church has turned many politcal issues into religious ones.
I thought that was *my* point. The starting point is politics, religion is the excuse fed to the masses. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Then you have nothing to complain about when you are offended by the church being offended. "You get that which you tolerate"
Frankly, I'm offended that you would think I would complain about being offended by the church being offended. I have a much more relaxed attitude about such things, and would certainly not be offended if the church was offended. I suggest you avoid such unscrupulous language in the future to avoid offending people such as myself! Good day to you sir! - F
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Stephen Hewitt wrote:
The church has turned many politcal issues into religious ones.
I thought that was *my* point. The starting point is politics, religion is the excuse fed to the masses. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Yes: but my point is that once the church adopts the issue it is a religious one. For example, many reliogious wars are over land but they are religious wars nethertheless. Steve
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Yes: but my point is that once the church adopts the issue it is a religious one. For example, many reliogious wars are over land but they are religious wars nethertheless. Steve
OK, in that case, your definition differs from mine, which is why we disagree. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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OK, in that case, your definition differs from mine, which is why we disagree. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Here's the motivation behind my definition: if people join the cause because of their religion then I say it’s religious. In short if religion is used as a tool to recruit people into a cause I feel it must be considered religious; especially if it is sanctioned by the religious leaders. Steve
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Here's the motivation behind my definition: if people join the cause because of their religion then I say it’s religious. In short if religion is used as a tool to recruit people into a cause I feel it must be considered religious; especially if it is sanctioned by the religious leaders. Steve
Fair enough. By that definition, you are right. My definition would be, if the action in question is sanctioned on grounds of religion, it's religious. If the prime motivation is power, or politics, then those motivations would exist in a world without religion, so religion is not the prime motivator or the reason for whatever action being discussed. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Fair enough. By that definition, you are right. My definition would be, if the action in question is sanctioned on grounds of religion, it's religious. If the prime motivation is power, or politics, then those motivations would exist in a world without religion, so religion is not the prime motivator or the reason for whatever action being discussed. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
If the prime motivation is power, or politics, then those motivations would exist in a world without religion, so religion is not the prime motivator
Not if the religions themselves are the source of the power and/or political issues.
"What classes are you using ? You shouldn't call stuff if you have no idea what it does" Christian Graus in the C# forum led mike
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Christian Graus wrote:
If the prime motivation is power, or politics, then those motivations would exist in a world without religion, so religion is not the prime motivator
Not if the religions themselves are the source of the power and/or political issues.
"What classes are you using ? You shouldn't call stuff if you have no idea what it does" Christian Graus in the C# forum led mike
led mike wrote:
Not if the religions themselves are the source of the power and/or political issues.
Well, that seems true, but I can't think of an example, certainly none of the examples offered would qualify. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Mel Gibson was only one who came to mind. I was also thinking of how a few years ago mainstream TV was criticized by the right wing christians of "neglecting" them and being too secular. Now we have this spate of pseudoreligious programming such as "Touched by an Angel" and, I think from the teasers I've seen, things like "Ghost Whisperer" and "Medium". The let's take a few religious ideas and spin them all over them map. But next thing you have entertainment giving "credence" to a lot of the fringe because some people can't tell the difference just like da Vinci Code.
Tim Craig wrote:
"Ghost Whisperer" and "Medium"
That can't be for a seriously christian audience surely? The occult isn't exactly popular with evangelicals. It must be targetted at credulous agnostics and the 'spiritual'. Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
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Then you have nothing to complain about when you are offended by the church being offended. "You get that which you tolerate"
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So the crusades, the inquisition, the 19th century witch burnings and the current islamist terrorism are all myths? Or are you suggesting that religious zealotry was merely a tool manipulated to accomplish some political aim behind all of these? We need to graduate from the ridiculous notion that greed is some kind of elixir for capitalism - it's the downfall of capitalism. Self-interest, maybe, but self-interest run amok does not serve anyone. The core value of conscious capitalism is enlightened self-interest. Patricia Aburdene -- modified at 12:22 Sunday 7th May, 2006 (I really need to work on my typing skills)
Rob Graham wrote:
the crusades
That was a war led by the Roman Cathoic Church to grab land and would not come anywhere near the savagry of China, Germany or the USSR.
Rob Graham wrote:
the inquisition
Historians agree that the inquisitions reputation exceeds its reality in both size and scope and would not come anywhere near the savagry of China, Germany or the USSR.
Rob Graham wrote:
the 19th century witch burnings
I think you have the wrong century.
Rob Graham wrote:
the current islamist terrorism
This is one you actually have right. Ironically islamofascism is derived from atheist governments. It's also non-Christian.
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Personally, I would even add that Comunism and Fascism are also some kind of religions, with their own dogmas (class strugle, proletariat's dictature, vital space etc.) their own churches (the parties) their own messiahas (Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Il Duce, Hitler, Marx) their version of infidels (burgeoisie, jews and the other side) and their own promisse of paradise (the "classless society" and the Reich). Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons. Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970) Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950) Patriotism is often an arbitrary veneration of real estate above principles. George Jean Nathan (1882 - 1958) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Samuel Johnson (1709 - 1784)
So then you agree with my previous oft-fought opinion that atheism is, in fact, a religion. It's only difference is that it competes with other religions by masking itself as the absence of religion, which you seem to agree is not true.