When does it end?
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led mike wrote:
Not if the religions themselves are the source of the power and/or political issues.
Well, that seems true, but I can't think of an example, certainly none of the examples offered would qualify. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
I must just be dense when it comes to this issue. Isn't most if not all of today's violence from Muslim fanatics based on religious doctrine?
"What classes are you using ? You shouldn't call stuff if you have no idea what it does" Christian Graus in the C# forum led mike
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The Crusades *used* religion to motivate the masses. They were not created for religious purposes. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Islamofascism. Saddam Hussein modelled his government primarily after Hitler's, with some communist features thrown in (link[^]). Iran's modern government was created through the backing and support of the USSR. Osama Bin Laden was brought about through war with the atheist USSR. In fact the entire region was rather temperate and venerable before the atheist influences of the USSR brought IslamoFascism into being.
Let me get this right, you are blaming the 1400 year history of religiously sanctioned violence and despotism in the Islamic world on Atheism? P.S. Communism, Fascism and Atheism are not equivalent concepts.
espeir wrote:
In fact the entire region was rather temperate and venerable
No, it was subdued by empire and too economically backward to offer any kind of threat. You might want to check out: The river war[^] And the 'shores of tripoli' bit from the Marine battle hymn[^] Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
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Let me get this right, you are blaming the 1400 year history of religiously sanctioned violence and despotism in the Islamic world on Atheism? P.S. Communism, Fascism and Atheism are not equivalent concepts.
espeir wrote:
In fact the entire region was rather temperate and venerable
No, it was subdued by empire and too economically backward to offer any kind of threat. You might want to check out: The river war[^] And the 'shores of tripoli' bit from the Marine battle hymn[^] Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Let me get this right, you are blaming the 1400 year history of religiously sanctioned violence and despotism in the Islamic world on Atheism? P.S. Communism, Fascism and Atheism are not equivalent concepts.
I've already gone over the relationship between Communism, Fascism and Atheism. It's equivelant to the relationship between Christianity and the Roman Catholic Church. The first is a religious concept and the latter is its implementation into religion. But yes, the region modelled its current governments after atheist governments and their formation was begun because of the influence of atheist governments in the region.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
No, it was subdued by empire and too economically backward to offer any kind of threat. You might want to check out: The river war[^] And the 'shores of tripoli' bit from the Marine battle hymn[^]
I can also post many more links of irreligious wars started by atheist states. The fact is that Islamic nations were rather temperate until the Soviet influence caused instability and the formation of governments modelled on other atheist governments.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Since when do only Christians not have the same "right" to be offended as everyone else?
Christians have exactly as much right to be offended as Muslims do -- none.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Thats doubtful -given that political and environmental issues have historically been far more distructive to human civilization than religions has.
Throughout history Religion has been the Political system for a lot of countries and it still is in places like the middle east. Can you think of any examples of destructive atheist governments besides the Communist governments of the former USSR and China?
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
« eikonoklastes »
You forgot Cuba!
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Stan Shannon wrote:
religion has not been the great scourge of human society that we are currently taught to think of it as
And I never suggested it was a "great scourge". It has, however, been responsible for some of the greatest atrocities in history. And when Catholics complain about a work of fiction, demanding legal suppression, they become no better than Muslims demanding suppression of cartoons of the prophet. I would think that a religion secure in its beliefs would simply ignore such petty anoyances. Instead, they call attention to them, mostly to their own detriment. We need to graduate from the ridiculous notion that greed is some kind of elixir for capitalism - it's the downfall of capitalism. Self-interest, maybe, but self-interest run amok does not serve anyone. The core value of conscious capitalism is enlightened self-interest. Patricia Aburdene
You're just another closet Marxist... :rolleyes:
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That is the same thing bin Laden is also doing -- *use* Islam to try and take over a few Muslim countries. US and Britain are standing in the way by supporting Saudi Arabia (which I believe is his target, from what I have read).
Thomas George wrote:
*use* Islam
Its a convenient tool, given most Islamic scholars do not refute his theology and Islamic supremacisism, only the definition of "innocent" - and we can see how well that works in Israel. Of course, all religion can and often is used as a tool to acquire temporal power, but Islam and the example of their prophet are particularly well adapted to the task. Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
-- modified at 11:57 Monday 8th May, 2006
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Thomas George wrote:
*use* Islam
Its a convenient tool, given most Islamic scholars do not refute his theology and Islamic supremacisism, only the definition of "innocent" - and we can see how well that works in Israel. Of course, all religion can and often is used as a tool to acquire temporal power, but Islam and the example of their prophet are particularly well adapted to the task. Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
-- modified at 11:57 Monday 8th May, 2006
IMO, Islam, Christianity, and Jewish religions are all capable of being *used* this way. But, the *fear of God* is more in Muslims these days. Most Christians and Jews don't take any political cues from religion these days. In a way, they have grown up. When three religions say that "There is only one God, and it is ours", there is bound to be some friction. :) Thomas
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Stan Shannon wrote:
religion has not been the great scourge of human society that we are currently taught to think of it as
And I never suggested it was a "great scourge". It has, however, been responsible for some of the greatest atrocities in history. And when Catholics complain about a work of fiction, demanding legal suppression, they become no better than Muslims demanding suppression of cartoons of the prophet. I would think that a religion secure in its beliefs would simply ignore such petty anoyances. Instead, they call attention to them, mostly to their own detriment. We need to graduate from the ridiculous notion that greed is some kind of elixir for capitalism - it's the downfall of capitalism. Self-interest, maybe, but self-interest run amok does not serve anyone. The core value of conscious capitalism is enlightened self-interest. Patricia Aburdene
I don't think the Catholic Church should sue (I doubt they expect anything more than attention to the issue over it). However, they probably do have legal standing. The book more than just makes claims of religion or mocks Jesus as those prophet cartoons did (Christians are already used to that kind of treatment). Rather, it specifically libels existing organizations (namely the Catholic Church and Opus Dei) and makes claims (that are supposedly based on fact) that they engage in various church-sanctioned criminal activities such as murder, kidnapping, theft, etc... If someone wrote a book about Tom Cruise (mentioning him by name) featured as a serial-killer/rapist, he could sue and would likely win a large settlement, even if the work is considered "fiction but based on facts".
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Tim Craig wrote:
"Ghost Whisperer" and "Medium"
That can't be for a seriously christian audience surely? The occult isn't exactly popular with evangelicals. It must be targetted at credulous agnostics and the 'spiritual'. Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
Ryan Roberts wrote:
That can't be for a seriously christian audience surely? The occult isn't exactly popular with evangelicals. It must be targetted at credulous agnostics and the 'spiritual'.
I don't think they're targeted at evangelicals. However, just how serious about christianity are the mindless masses who answer christian to the polls to show how "christian" this country is? I can't speak to the details since I don't watch either show. I just found it curios that the teasers they were running this past week both featured "angel of death" characters and one sceen was about "saving souls". At any given instant there are considerably more assholes than mouths in the universe.
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I must just be dense when it comes to this issue. Isn't most if not all of today's violence from Muslim fanatics based on religious doctrine?
"What classes are you using ? You shouldn't call stuff if you have no idea what it does" Christian Graus in the C# forum led mike
led mike wrote:
Isn't most if not all of today's violence from Muslim fanatics based on religious doctrine?
No, that's just what your media tells you. Africa, for example, is full of violence, most of it based on war between ethnic groups and so on. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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led mike wrote:
Isn't most if not all of today's violence from Muslim fanatics based on religious doctrine?
No, that's just what your media tells you. Africa, for example, is full of violence, most of it based on war between ethnic groups and so on. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/05/23/nigeri10993.htm[^] Isn't Nigeria in Africa? :) I really don't believe that "all" or even "most" violence has religious ties. There is so much violence I can't get close to keeping track of it all. I just know there is, and always has been, way to much that is tied to religion.
"What classes are you using ? You shouldn't call stuff if you have no idea what it does" Christian Graus in the C# forum led mike
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http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/05/23/nigeri10993.htm[^] Isn't Nigeria in Africa? :) I really don't believe that "all" or even "most" violence has religious ties. There is so much violence I can't get close to keeping track of it all. I just know there is, and always has been, way to much that is tied to religion.
"What classes are you using ? You shouldn't call stuff if you have no idea what it does" Christian Graus in the C# forum led mike
led mike wrote:
Isn't Nigeria in Africa?
Yes.
led mike wrote:
I just know there is, and always has been, way to much that is tied to religion.
Yes, that is true. Although, often religion is an excuse. for example, the real reason for the Protestant/Catholic fighting in Ireland is that the Protestants are people who were imported from England, to try and take over the land. Religion is the reason given, but it's not really the core. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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led mike wrote:
Isn't Nigeria in Africa?
Yes.
led mike wrote:
I just know there is, and always has been, way to much that is tied to religion.
Yes, that is true. Although, often religion is an excuse. for example, the real reason for the Protestant/Catholic fighting in Ireland is that the Protestants are people who were imported from England, to try and take over the land. Religion is the reason given, but it's not really the core. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
Although, often religion is an excuse.
Sure I can see that.
Christian Graus wrote:
Religion is the reason given, but it's not really the core.
Sure that is sort of the whole point right. People in power have a political agenda and they incite religious followers into fighting by leveraging their faith. See my thread in "Have religions failed". Or did i completely misunderstand you?
"What classes are you using ? You shouldn't call stuff if you have no idea what it does" Christian Graus in the C# forum led mike
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Christian Graus wrote:
Although, often religion is an excuse.
Sure I can see that.
Christian Graus wrote:
Religion is the reason given, but it's not really the core.
Sure that is sort of the whole point right. People in power have a political agenda and they incite religious followers into fighting by leveraging their faith. See my thread in "Have religions failed". Or did i completely misunderstand you?
"What classes are you using ? You shouldn't call stuff if you have no idea what it does" Christian Graus in the C# forum led mike
No, you've understood me perfectly, I saw the thread and agree with what you're saying. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++