Undocumented? You mean ILLEGAL
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espeir wrote:
I prefer "migrant" to "immigrant"
Thank you for making my point.
espeir wrote:
Bigot
Name caller! ---------- Some problems are so complex that you have to be highly intelligent and well informed just to be undecided about them. - Laurence J. Peters
EricDV wrote:
Name caller!
One reason people call you names is that they probably cannot read your actual name as you've used a color that's hard to read on a light blueish background :rolleyes: Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. -
espeir wrote:
I prefer "migrant" to "immigrant"
Thank you for making my point.
espeir wrote:
Bigot
Name caller! ---------- Some problems are so complex that you have to be highly intelligent and well informed just to be undecided about them. - Laurence J. Peters
EricDV wrote:
Name caller!
You dishonor the name of El Salvador!
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Rant: Apparently the latest buzz word needed to pass the political correctness exam in the US is “undocumented.” We suddenly have undocumented immigrants, undocumented workers, undocumented students, ad et al puke. As a developer, I’ve seen this little trick tried on end users: “That isn’t actually a bug, it is an undocumented feature.” Who is stupid enough to buy this crap? If a person takes someone else’s car without asking are they then the “undocumented owner?” If someone kidnaps a child, and raises it as their own, are they then the “undocumented parent?” Let's just call it what it is: illegal! Disclaimer: I have nothing against Mexicans, or even against Mexicans coming to the US. I have friends who are Mexican. My brother is married to a Mexican. I do, however, despise political correctness – and the wimpiness it equates to. Just say what you have to say, and quit trying to add water to our vocabulary. ---------- Some problems are so complex that you have to be highly intelligent and well informed just to be undecided about them. - Laurence J. Peters
EricDV wrote:
If a person takes someone else’s car without asking are they then the “undocumented owner?” If someone kidnaps a child, and raises it as their own, are they then the “undocumented parent?” Let's just call it what it is: illegal!
You don't call them "illegal parents" or "illegal drivers" either though, which kinda makes it look like both "illegal" and "undocumented" are rather inappropriate. What's wrong with something descriptive, like "unapproved"?
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EricDV wrote:
If a person takes someone else’s car without asking are they then the “undocumented owner?” If someone kidnaps a child, and raises it as their own, are they then the “undocumented parent?” Let's just call it what it is: illegal!
You don't call them "illegal parents" or "illegal drivers" either though, which kinda makes it look like both "illegal" and "undocumented" are rather inappropriate. What's wrong with something descriptive, like "unapproved"?
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Shog9 wrote:
like "unapproved"?
what about virtual? :)
"What classes are you using ? You shouldn't call stuff if you have no idea what it does"
Christian Graus in the C# forumled mike
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EricDV wrote:
If a person takes someone else’s car without asking are they then the “undocumented owner?” If someone kidnaps a child, and raises it as their own, are they then the “undocumented parent?” Let's just call it what it is: illegal!
You don't call them "illegal parents" or "illegal drivers" either though, which kinda makes it look like both "illegal" and "undocumented" are rather inappropriate. What's wrong with something descriptive, like "unapproved"?
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Because they're whole existance isn't illegal. They've committed a crime and their actions are called "criminal" and "illegal". Likewise they are called "criminals". An illegal alien's entire existence within our borders is illegal..hence the term. I'm equally comfortable calling illegal aliens "criminals" if we must.
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EricDV wrote:
Name caller!
One reason people call you names is that they probably cannot read your actual name as you've used a color that's hard to read on a light blueish background :rolleyes: Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications.Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
you've used a color that's hard to read on a light blueish background
Good point. Fixed it. ---------- Some problems are so complex that you have to be highly intelligent and well informed just to be undecided about them. - Laurence J. Peters
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EricDV wrote:
If a person takes someone else’s car without asking are they then the “undocumented owner?” If someone kidnaps a child, and raises it as their own, are they then the “undocumented parent?” Let's just call it what it is: illegal!
You don't call them "illegal parents" or "illegal drivers" either though, which kinda makes it look like both "illegal" and "undocumented" are rather inappropriate. What's wrong with something descriptive, like "unapproved"?
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Shog9 wrote:
You don't call them "illegal parents" or "illegal drivers" either though
The point is that they have committed a crime, and calling them "undocumented" is an attempt to minimize the illegality of their status in the United States. "Unapproved" is soft too.
Shog9 wrote:
both "illegal" and "undocumented" are rather inappropriate. What's wrong with something descriptive, like "unapproved"?
What makes "illegal" inappropriate? It is plenty descriptive. Look, I haven't been a model citizen all my life, but when I break the law I'll admit it. We need to have a spine. The United States is largely becoming a nation of wishy washy weaklings who are more afraid to offend anyone than to stand up for themselves. Let's get real! ---------- Some problems are so complex that you have to be highly intelligent and well informed just to be undecided about them. - Laurence J. Peters
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Shog9 wrote:
You don't call them "illegal parents" or "illegal drivers" either though
The point is that they have committed a crime, and calling them "undocumented" is an attempt to minimize the illegality of their status in the United States. "Unapproved" is soft too.
Shog9 wrote:
both "illegal" and "undocumented" are rather inappropriate. What's wrong with something descriptive, like "unapproved"?
What makes "illegal" inappropriate? It is plenty descriptive. Look, I haven't been a model citizen all my life, but when I break the law I'll admit it. We need to have a spine. The United States is largely becoming a nation of wishy washy weaklings who are more afraid to offend anyone than to stand up for themselves. Let's get real! ---------- Some problems are so complex that you have to be highly intelligent and well informed just to be undecided about them. - Laurence J. Peters
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Rant: Apparently the latest buzz word needed to pass the political correctness exam in the US is “undocumented.” We suddenly have undocumented immigrants, undocumented workers, undocumented students, ad et al puke. As a developer, I’ve seen this little trick tried on end users: “That isn’t actually a bug, it is an undocumented feature.” Who is stupid enough to buy this crap? If a person takes someone else’s car without asking are they then the “undocumented owner?” If someone kidnaps a child, and raises it as their own, are they then the “undocumented parent?” Let's just call it what it is: illegal! Disclaimer: I have nothing against Mexicans, or even against Mexicans coming to the US. I have friends who are Mexican. My brother is married to a Mexican. I do, however, despise political correctness – and the wimpiness it equates to. Just say what you have to say, and quit trying to add water to our vocabulary. ---------- Some problems are so complex that you have to be highly intelligent and well informed just to be undecided about them. - Laurence J. Peters
Before declaring someone to be 'illegal', 'criminal' or 'undocumented', perhaps a definition of these words would be appropriate. When a child is born, but before they are entered into 'the system', are they 'undocumented'? If an 'undocumented' person had no control over being brought to a country (child, kidnap victim, etc), are they 'criminals'? Shouldn't 'criminal' imply intent to commit a criminal act?
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Because they're whole existance isn't illegal. They've committed a crime and their actions are called "criminal" and "illegal". Likewise they are called "criminals". An illegal alien's entire existence within our borders is illegal..hence the term. I'm equally comfortable calling illegal aliens "criminals" if we must.
espeir wrote:
An illegal alien's entire existence within our borders is illegal..hence the term.
By that logic, an escaped prisoner's existence is illegal anywhere - we don't refer to them as "illegal citizens" or "illegal humans". It smacks of laziness, like people who say "borrow" when they mean "lend".
espeir wrote:
I'm equally comfortable calling illegal aliens "criminals" if we must.
Uh, we already do. But we need something more specific, to distinguish those who sneak over the border from those who steal car radios.
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Shog9 wrote:
You don't call them "illegal parents" or "illegal drivers" either though
The point is that they have committed a crime, and calling them "undocumented" is an attempt to minimize the illegality of their status in the United States. "Unapproved" is soft too.
Shog9 wrote:
both "illegal" and "undocumented" are rather inappropriate. What's wrong with something descriptive, like "unapproved"?
What makes "illegal" inappropriate? It is plenty descriptive. Look, I haven't been a model citizen all my life, but when I break the law I'll admit it. We need to have a spine. The United States is largely becoming a nation of wishy washy weaklings who are more afraid to offend anyone than to stand up for themselves. Let's get real! ---------- Some problems are so complex that you have to be highly intelligent and well informed just to be undecided about them. - Laurence J. Peters
EricDV wrote:
What makes "illegal" inappropriate? It is plenty descriptive.
I don't really have a problem with it, but obviously it's outlived its usefulness if we're bothering to discuss alternate terms. It's a very broad term, i suppose...
EricDV wrote:
The point is that they have committed a crime, and calling them "undocumented" is an attempt to minimize the illegality of their status in the United States. "Unapproved" is soft too.
It's all about the connotations. "Illegal" can be used to describe anything from selling poison as baby forumla, to making one too many copies of a letter - it's the context that we use to determine whether it's "hard" or "soft". The only point worth making here is that we're all used to hearing "illegal aliens", whereas "undocumented workers" is unfamiliar and therefore hasn't picked up all the negative connotations yet.
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espeir wrote:
An illegal alien's entire existence within our borders is illegal..hence the term.
By that logic, an escaped prisoner's existence is illegal anywhere - we don't refer to them as "illegal citizens" or "illegal humans". It smacks of laziness, like people who say "borrow" when they mean "lend".
espeir wrote:
I'm equally comfortable calling illegal aliens "criminals" if we must.
Uh, we already do. But we need something more specific, to distinguish those who sneak over the border from those who steal car radios.
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Shog9 wrote:
By that logic, an escaped prisoner's existence is illegal anywhere - we don't refer to them as "illegal citizens" or "illegal humans". It smacks of laziness, like people who say "borrow" when they mean "lend".
No, because they wouldn't be "illegal citizens". They're legal citizens, but escaped convicts. That's why we call them "escaped convicts". An illegal alien is an alien who is here illegally. Hence the term "illegal alien" or "illegal" for short.
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EricDV wrote:
What makes "illegal" inappropriate? It is plenty descriptive.
I don't really have a problem with it, but obviously it's outlived its usefulness if we're bothering to discuss alternate terms. It's a very broad term, i suppose...
EricDV wrote:
The point is that they have committed a crime, and calling them "undocumented" is an attempt to minimize the illegality of their status in the United States. "Unapproved" is soft too.
It's all about the connotations. "Illegal" can be used to describe anything from selling poison as baby forumla, to making one too many copies of a letter - it's the context that we use to determine whether it's "hard" or "soft". The only point worth making here is that we're all used to hearing "illegal aliens", whereas "undocumented workers" is unfamiliar and therefore hasn't picked up all the negative connotations yet.
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Shog9 wrote:
It's all about the connotations. "Illegal" can be used to describe anything from selling poison as baby forumla, to making one too many copies of a letter - it's the context that we use to determine whether it's "hard" or "soft". The only point worth making here is that we're all used to hearing "illegal aliens", whereas "undocumented workers" is unfamiliar and therefore hasn't picked up all the negative connotations yet.
"Illegal alien" is very descriptive of the crime and criminal. It's a person who has come here illegally as an alien. The very act of existing here is illegal and the term acts in opposition to "legal alien". The purpose of renaming it is simply to dampen the fact that it's a crime. Kind of like how leftists call abortion "choice".
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Before declaring someone to be 'illegal', 'criminal' or 'undocumented', perhaps a definition of these words would be appropriate. When a child is born, but before they are entered into 'the system', are they 'undocumented'? If an 'undocumented' person had no control over being brought to a country (child, kidnap victim, etc), are they 'criminals'? Shouldn't 'criminal' imply intent to commit a criminal act?
Tim Carmichael wrote:
Shouldn't 'criminal' imply intent to commit a criminal act?
It should, but doesn't. Law and justice are not the same thing. Ignorance is no excuse, and even people who are kidnapped and brought to this country are sent back sometimes. Sure, this is cold and heartless - and so is life. I'm not against having a heart for people, but we don't have to be pansies about it. It is possible to care about people and still be a man. This is a court of law, young man, not a court of justice. - Oliver Wendell Holmes
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Before declaring someone to be 'illegal', 'criminal' or 'undocumented', perhaps a definition of these words would be appropriate. When a child is born, but before they are entered into 'the system', are they 'undocumented'? If an 'undocumented' person had no control over being brought to a country (child, kidnap victim, etc), are they 'criminals'? Shouldn't 'criminal' imply intent to commit a criminal act?
Tim Carmichael wrote:
If an 'undocumented' person had no control over being brought to a country (child, kidnap victim, etc), are they 'criminals'?
No, because they did not commit a crime. If they voluntarily remain here, however, that is a crime.
Tim Carmichael wrote:
Shouldn't 'criminal' imply intent to commit a criminal act?
Unless you're referring to some obscure case of slavery, every illegal alien here did knowingly commit a criminal act.
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Shog9 wrote:
By that logic, an escaped prisoner's existence is illegal anywhere - we don't refer to them as "illegal citizens" or "illegal humans". It smacks of laziness, like people who say "borrow" when they mean "lend".
No, because they wouldn't be "illegal citizens". They're legal citizens, but escaped convicts. That's why we call them "escaped convicts". An illegal alien is an alien who is here illegally. Hence the term "illegal alien" or "illegal" for short.
espeir wrote:
hey're legal citizens, but escaped convicts. That's why we call them "escaped convicts".
It's illegal for them to be anywhere but in prison (or being transported, etc.). That we have a more specific term for them just backs up my point - "illegal" is vague.
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espeir wrote:
hey're legal citizens, but escaped convicts. That's why we call them "escaped convicts".
It's illegal for them to be anywhere but in prison (or being transported, etc.). That we have a more specific term for them just backs up my point - "illegal" is vague.
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"Illegal" is just the colloquial shortcut for "illegal alien", which is not vague. The term "illegal" when applied to an immigrant is universally understood to mean "illegal alien", so it's not ambiguous in any way.
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Shog9 wrote:
It's all about the connotations. "Illegal" can be used to describe anything from selling poison as baby forumla, to making one too many copies of a letter - it's the context that we use to determine whether it's "hard" or "soft". The only point worth making here is that we're all used to hearing "illegal aliens", whereas "undocumented workers" is unfamiliar and therefore hasn't picked up all the negative connotations yet.
"Illegal alien" is very descriptive of the crime and criminal. It's a person who has come here illegally as an alien. The very act of existing here is illegal and the term acts in opposition to "legal alien". The purpose of renaming it is simply to dampen the fact that it's a crime. Kind of like how leftists call abortion "choice".
espeir wrote:
"Illegal alien" is very descriptive of the crime and criminal. It's a person who has come here illegally as an alien.
What about the ones who came here legally, but were supposed to leave after a short visit? What about the ones who came here legally, but can't legally work here? I suspect this is why the topic is even on the table - there's too much riding on how we change laws and policy towards the various sub-groups of "illegal aliens" to allow discussion to continue with such a vague definition.
espeir wrote:
Kind of like how leftists call abortion "choice".
Abortion, like most forms of murder, is a choice. The danger here is that you become too addicted to the semantics, and allow your opinion of an action to be entirely shaped by the words used to describe it. At that point, the person reporting the action has you by the short and curlies. And yeah, i'm as vulnerable to this as the next guy - but blaming my weakness on those who exploit it is just admitting defeat.
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"Illegal" is just the colloquial shortcut for "illegal alien", which is not vague. The term "illegal" when applied to an immigrant is universally understood to mean "illegal alien", so it's not ambiguous in any way.
espeir wrote:
"Illegal" is just the colloquial shortcut for "illegal alien", which is not vague.
Oh? It describes where they came from, why they came here, and what the appropriate punishment is, does it? See my other post
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