Undocumented? You mean ILLEGAL
-
And yet, the current discussions involving amnesty, border security, and guest-worker programs are all heavily tainted by these factors you say shouldn't be part of the equation.
----
No -Where they came from is not relevant to the crime, however the vast majority of illegals come by crossing the Mexican Border. It makes sense that border security would focus on this area because that's the problem area. -Why they came here does not have any bearing on the crime...However, our crappy politicians have allowed the situation to worsen to the point that the crime is just not feasibly punishable. That's why amnesty is being considered. Guest worker programs would probably apply to people from all countries. The problems with "undocumented worker" is that it's less specific than "illegal alien" and removes the illegality aspect of it. I see what you're saying, but "illegal alien" is a higher level term that encompasses many manifestations of the crime. Kind of like how "murder" encompasses 1st, 2nd and 3rd degree murder.
-
Shog9 wrote:
like "unapproved"?
what about virtual? :)
"What classes are you using ? You shouldn't call stuff if you have no idea what it does"
Christian Graus in the C# forumled mike
led mike wrote:
what about virtual?
No way - that would lead to a whole sub-class of people. :doh: Wouldn't want to do that now would we! :laugh: I'm pretty sure I would not like to live in a world in which I would never be offended. I am absolutely certain I don't want to live in a world in which you would never be offended. Dave
-
EricDV wrote:
Shog9 wrote:
What about the ones who came here legally, but can't legally work here?
If they DO work here: Illegal
So is their entire existence here illegal, or not? Apparently, they can exist in this country quite legally unless they work; i'm to believe that at that point their employment status invalidates their entire existence?
----
Shog9 wrote:
So is their entire existence here illegal, or not?
You just said to assume that their existence here IS legal but that they are not allowed to work (I'm not sure that there is a situation like that...). That is clearly different than "illegal alien" because they are "legal aliens" breaking another (albeit related) law. So the term "illegal alien" would not apply to them. If there were some condition that stated if they worked then their legal alien status would be revoked, then they WOULD become an "illegal alien"if they violated that rule. The term is amply descriptive.
-
And yet, the current discussions involving amnesty, border security, and guest-worker programs are all heavily tainted by these factors you say shouldn't be part of the equation.
----
espier is the Code Project version of a village idiot. If you throw him crumbs by responding to his posts, he will hang around the forums much as a village idiot hangs around hoping for handouts. If you ignore him, then, like the idiot, he will move on to the next village.
-
espier is the Code Project version of a village idiot. If you throw him crumbs by responding to his posts, he will hang around the forums much as a village idiot hangs around hoping for handouts. If you ignore him, then, like the idiot, he will move on to the next village.
I would visit Marana, but it's hard to stand out from all the rednecks.
-
Yeah, but 9 out of 10 illegals *are* Mexican, and besides, he may actually have something against non-Mexicans. However, you can't necessarily draw that conclusion without looking like a complete ass yourself. If you guys can't play nice, I'm gonna separate you...
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
-----
"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001I've been watching for you to post to this thread. I'm no ass kisser, so I'll just say - I [EDIT] usually [/EDIT] appreciate your comments. ---------- Some problems are so complex that you have to be highly intelligent and well informed just to be undecided about them. - Laurence J. Peters -- modified at 13:27 Thursday 25th May, 2006
-
EricDV wrote:
Shog9 wrote:
What about the ones who came here legally, but can't legally work here?
If they DO work here: Illegal
So is their entire existence here illegal, or not? Apparently, they can exist in this country quite legally unless they work; i'm to believe that at that point their employment status invalidates their entire existence?
----
Shog9 wrote:
So is their entire existence here illegal, or not? Apparently, they can exist in this country quite legally unless they work; i'm to believe that at that point their employment status invalidates their entire existence?
In so far as they break the law, they are illegal in that point. I haven't yet said anything about them having an invalid existence. We all, as human beings, have certain rights in common. Those rights DO NOT include the right to live in the United States, or even to work here. (Even though the founders of this country came and wrongfully TOOK the land from the Native Americans - which is a topic for another day.) We have laws. Are we gonna stick to them or not? ---------- Some problems are so complex that you have to be highly intelligent and well informed just to be undecided about them. - Laurence J. Peters
-
I would visit Marana, but it's hard to stand out from all the rednecks.
Necesito cuchillas y suave tisus. ---------- Some problems are so complex that you have to be highly intelligent and well informed just to be undecided about them. - Laurence J. Peters
-
Shog9 wrote:
So is their entire existence here illegal, or not? Apparently, they can exist in this country quite legally unless they work; i'm to believe that at that point their employment status invalidates their entire existence?
In so far as they break the law, they are illegal in that point. I haven't yet said anything about them having an invalid existence. We all, as human beings, have certain rights in common. Those rights DO NOT include the right to live in the United States, or even to work here. (Even though the founders of this country came and wrongfully TOOK the land from the Native Americans - which is a topic for another day.) We have laws. Are we gonna stick to them or not? ---------- Some problems are so complex that you have to be highly intelligent and well informed just to be undecided about them. - Laurence J. Peters
EricDV wrote:
Even though the founders of this country came and wrongfully TOOK the land from the Native Americans - which is a topic for another day
Actually most (if not all) the founding fathers were born in the United States, so they had just as much right to the land by any moral standard. The land was actually taken from the Indians by those dirty Europeans! The US just shuffled them around a little bit and gave them money to run casinos.
-
I've been watching for you to post to this thread. I'm no ass kisser, so I'll just say - I [EDIT] usually [/EDIT] appreciate your comments. ---------- Some problems are so complex that you have to be highly intelligent and well informed just to be undecided about them. - Laurence J. Peters -- modified at 13:27 Thursday 25th May, 2006
Did you hear about a group representing the "pigmentally-challenged" protesting the use of an albino in the Davinci Code movie? I mean, let's just change a fundamentally important character so that we don't insult other albinos... What a crock of shit...
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
-----
"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001-- modified at 20:53 Thursday 25th May, 2006
-
EricDV wrote:
Even though the founders of this country came and wrongfully TOOK the land from the Native Americans - which is a topic for another day
Actually most (if not all) the founding fathers were born in the United States, so they had just as much right to the land by any moral standard. The land was actually taken from the Indians by those dirty Europeans! The US just shuffled them around a little bit and gave them money to run casinos.
espeir wrote:
Actually most (if not all) the founding fathers were born in the United States
I may have been wrong in saying the "Founding Fathers." They are generally considered to be the little group who signed the Declaration of Independence. However, it wasn't just "those dirty Europeans" who took the land from Natives. They were being reservationized long after 1776. ---------- Some problems are so complex that you have to be highly intelligent and well informed just to be undecided about them. - Laurence J. Peters
-
espeir wrote:
Actually most (if not all) the founding fathers were born in the United States
I may have been wrong in saying the "Founding Fathers." They are generally considered to be the little group who signed the Declaration of Independence. However, it wasn't just "those dirty Europeans" who took the land from Natives. They were being reservationized long after 1776. ---------- Some problems are so complex that you have to be highly intelligent and well informed just to be undecided about them. - Laurence J. Peters
EricDV wrote:
They were being reservationized long after 1776.
Yeah, That's what I said...The US shuffled 'em around a bit before giving them money to build casinos.
-
espier is the Code Project version of a village idiot. If you throw him crumbs by responding to his posts, he will hang around the forums much as a village idiot hangs around hoping for handouts. If you ignore him, then, like the idiot, he will move on to the next village.
Heh, i just get a kick out of the fact that, AFAIK, espeir has no idea what i think regarding our immigration policy, border security, etc... but is terribly concerned that i might use a "softer" word to describe the problem. :rolleyes:
---- Scripts i've known... CPhog 1.0.0.0 - make CP better. Forum Bookmark 0.2.5 - bookmark forum posts on Pensieve Print forum 0.1.2 - printer-friendly forums Expand all 1.0 - Expand all messages In-place Delete 1.0 - AJAX-style post delete Syntax 0.1 - Syntax highlighting for code blocks in the forums
-
Shog9 wrote:
What about the ones who came here legally, but were supposed to leave after a short visit?
They're "illegal aliens" because they are the opposite of "legal aliens". They are not legally allowed to be here.
Shog9 wrote:
What about the ones who came here legally, but can't legally work here?
They are NOT illegal aliens if they are legally here.
Shog9 wrote:
I suspect this is why the topic is even on the table - there's too much riding on how we change laws and policy towards the various sub-groups of "illegal aliens" to allow discussion to continue with such a vague definition.
"Undocumented worker" is even more vague. It does not address whether they are here legally, whether their undocumented status is a result of the violation of a law or a bureaucratic screwup or what documents they specifically lack. The term "illegal alien" specifically states that an alien is present in this county contrary to the law.
Shog9 wrote:
Abortion, like most forms of murder, is a choice. The danger here is that you become too addicted to the semantics, and allow your opinion of an action to be entirely shaped by the words used to describe it. At that point, the person reporting the action has you by the short and curlies. And yeah, i'm as vulnerable to this as the next guy - but blaming my weakness on those who exploit it is just admitting defeat.
O...K... I'm saying this is along the same lines. Being present in this country illegally is, by definition, illegal. It is therefore perfectly appropriate and descriptive to call someone that fits into that category an "illegal alien". By using a euphemism like "undocumented worker", you're removing the illegality of the action from the term in order to make it more palatable. Just like abortion is called "choice" by the left. When you want people to take your position, it's easier to do so by using a more palatable term because it removes the "bad" from it by making it nondescript.
Espeir, Excuse this query from a Brit, but I am a little confused.
espeir wrote:
Shog9 wrote: What about the ones who came here legally, but can't legally work here? They are NOT illegal aliens if they are legally here.
I don't understand, pleae explain... If a person is not an illegal alien why is it then that such a person is not legally allowed to work?
-
Heh, i just get a kick out of the fact that, AFAIK, espeir has no idea what i think regarding our immigration policy, border security, etc... but is terribly concerned that i might use a "softer" word to describe the problem. :rolleyes:
---- Scripts i've known... CPhog 1.0.0.0 - make CP better. Forum Bookmark 0.2.5 - bookmark forum posts on Pensieve Print forum 0.1.2 - printer-friendly forums Expand all 1.0 - Expand all messages In-place Delete 1.0 - AJAX-style post delete Syntax 0.1 - Syntax highlighting for code blocks in the forums
I don't claim to know your position on it. In fact I'm not 100% sure about my position on various aspects of it. I just disagree that that the term "illegal alien" is vague and that it needs to be replaced by another term (which I think is much more vague) that removes the suggestion that it is a crime.
-
Espeir, Excuse this query from a Brit, but I am a little confused.
espeir wrote:
Shog9 wrote: What about the ones who came here legally, but can't legally work here? They are NOT illegal aliens if they are legally here.
I don't understand, pleae explain... If a person is not an illegal alien why is it then that such a person is not legally allowed to work?
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
If a person is not an illegal alien why is it then that such a person is not legally allowed to work?
I honestly don't think there is such a situation. I was only addressing it for academic reasons.
-
Tim Carmichael wrote:
Shouldn't 'criminal' imply intent to commit a criminal act?
It should, but doesn't. Law and justice are not the same thing. Ignorance is no excuse, and even people who are kidnapped and brought to this country are sent back sometimes. Sure, this is cold and heartless - and so is life. I'm not against having a heart for people, but we don't have to be pansies about it. It is possible to care about people and still be a man. This is a court of law, young man, not a court of justice. - Oliver Wendell Holmes
If illegal aliens, as in partner/married, were to have children born in the USA, would that child be a citizen of the USA or a citizen of wherever the parents came from, or perhaps dual nationality. If those illegal alien parents were arrested and deported to wherever they came from, would the child(ren) of such illegals be also deported or would they be made "ward of court" (or whatever the American name is) forbidding that child to be deported as that child was born in the USA. Does your legal system have opt-out clauses similar to those in Europe where deporting illegal aliens to their own country if their own country has a regime that may be detrimental to life and limb.
-
Espeir, Excuse this query from a Brit, but I am a little confused.
espeir wrote:
Shog9 wrote: What about the ones who came here legally, but can't legally work here? They are NOT illegal aliens if they are legally here.
I don't understand, pleae explain... If a person is not an illegal alien why is it then that such a person is not legally allowed to work?
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
If a person is not an illegal alien why is it then that such a person is not legally allowed to work?
See here: http://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/[^] (Scan the list of visas - you can't legally work without some sort of work visa, but there are other ways of being here legally, at least on a temporary basis)
---- Scripts i've known... CPhog 1.0.0.0 - make CP better. Forum Bookmark 0.2.5 - bookmark forum posts on Pensieve Print forum 0.1.2 - printer-friendly forums Expand all 1.0 - Expand all messages In-place Delete 1.0 - AJAX-style post delete Syntax 0.1 - Syntax highlighting for code blocks in the forums
-
If illegal aliens, as in partner/married, were to have children born in the USA, would that child be a citizen of the USA or a citizen of wherever the parents came from, or perhaps dual nationality. If those illegal alien parents were arrested and deported to wherever they came from, would the child(ren) of such illegals be also deported or would they be made "ward of court" (or whatever the American name is) forbidding that child to be deported as that child was born in the USA. Does your legal system have opt-out clauses similar to those in Europe where deporting illegal aliens to their own country if their own country has a regime that may be detrimental to life and limb.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
If illegal aliens, as in partner/married, were to have children born in the USA, would that child be a citizen of the USA or a citizen of wherever the parents came from, or perhaps dual nationality.
Per our constitution, they would be US citizens. Their dual-nationality would be based on their home country.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
If those illegal alien parents were arrested and deported to wherever they came from, would the child(ren) of such illegals be also deported or would they be made "ward of court" (or whatever the American name is) forbidding that child to be deported as that child was born in the USA.
We currently don't deport people all that often, but I honestly don't know what happens in those situations. The parents probably get to stay.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Does your legal system have opt-out clauses similar to those in Europe where deporting illegal aliens to their own country if their own country has a regime that may be detrimental to life and limb.
Yes. America grants political amnesty to many people who apply for it. The US does not grant amnesty for financial reasons, though (like their home country is too poor). In fact (as my understanding goes) if a Cuban national makes it onto American soil, they are immediately granted amnesty and residency and are therefore not illegal aliens.
-
Espeir, Excuse this query from a Brit, but I am a little confused.
espeir wrote:
Shog9 wrote: What about the ones who came here legally, but can't legally work here? They are NOT illegal aliens if they are legally here.
I don't understand, pleae explain... If a person is not an illegal alien why is it then that such a person is not legally allowed to work?
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
If a person is not an illegal alien why is it then that such a person is not legally allowed to work?
They may just be here for vacation. ---------- Some problems are so complex that you have to be highly intelligent and well informed just to be undecided about them. - Laurence J. Peters