The religion of peace and tolerance at work again
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Marc Clifton wrote:
I get the impression that there isn't a single activity that isn't approached with at least the threat of violence. It seems almost a cultural thing.
Perhaps, but people can spend their time thinking about their political / ethnic / religious identity and the real and imagined threats and injustices associated with that, or they can busy themselves with work of some kind and reap the benefits from that work. The second option is very much to be preferred. John Carson "To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." Thomas Paine
John Carson wrote:
or they can busy themselves with work of some kind and reap the benefits from that work.
Very true. Seems many people, not just Iraqis, do the former though. Marc Pensieve Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
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Speaking of dresses this[^]is an intresting finding. When will world getrid of Neocons!!!:rolleyes:
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You read on the Democratic Underground? :wtf: MOΛΩN ΛABE
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John Carson wrote:
their attention is not focussed on non-violent activities
I get the impression that there isn't a single activity that isn't approached with at least the threat of violence. It seems almost a cultural thing. Marc Pensieve Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
An invasion that destroys everything. Add ontop of that a militia that would do anything to consolidate the power given to them, and people are saying the violence seems 'almost a cultural thing' :~
The Quran's Rational Arguments (Audio) Background on Prophet Muhammad (in progress) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
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An invasion that destroys everything. Add ontop of that a militia that would do anything to consolidate the power given to them, and people are saying the violence seems 'almost a cultural thing' :~
The Quran's Rational Arguments (Audio) Background on Prophet Muhammad (in progress) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
A.A. wrote:
An invasion that destroys everything. Add ontop of that a militia that would do anything to consolidate the power given to them, and people are saying the violence seems 'almost a cultural thing'
Well the Iraqis seem to now mainly be fighting each other. I think the culture has something to do with that. Plenty of countries have been invaded and occupied without descending into this sort of internal conflict. John Carson "To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." Thomas Paine
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A.A. wrote:
An invasion that destroys everything. Add ontop of that a militia that would do anything to consolidate the power given to them, and people are saying the violence seems 'almost a cultural thing'
Well the Iraqis seem to now mainly be fighting each other. I think the culture has something to do with that. Plenty of countries have been invaded and occupied without descending into this sort of internal conflict. John Carson "To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." Thomas Paine
If you look at the main players that are fighting each other you would see that they are the occupation and those they brought with them [the Badr brigade/SCIRI] and the locals and those that came to fight the occupation. Even a good portion of the Govt[if you want to call it that] that is yet to be formed is imported. Contrary to what the media has been trumpting here this is not purly a sectarian/ethnic conflict. On the other hand now there is some internal strife, though alot of it seems to be repeatedly instigated by external forces, look at the Madaen incident and many similiar incidents. The old divide and conquer trick.
The Quran's Rational Arguments (Audio) Background on Prophet Muhammad (in progress) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
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If you look at the main players that are fighting each other you would see that they are the occupation and those they brought with them [the Badr brigade/SCIRI] and the locals and those that came to fight the occupation. Even a good portion of the Govt[if you want to call it that] that is yet to be formed is imported. Contrary to what the media has been trumpting here this is not purly a sectarian/ethnic conflict. On the other hand now there is some internal strife, though alot of it seems to be repeatedly instigated by external forces, look at the Madaen incident and many similiar incidents. The old divide and conquer trick.
The Quran's Rational Arguments (Audio) Background on Prophet Muhammad (in progress) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
A.A. wrote:
Contrary to what the media has been trumpting here this is not purly a sectarian/ethnic conflict.
No-one is claiming that it is "purely" a sectarian/ethnic conflict, but I don't think there is any serious doubt that that is now a very large part of it.
A.A. wrote:
On the other hand now there is some internal strife, though alot of it seems to be repeatedly instigated by external forces, look at the Madaen incident and many similiar incidents. The old divide and conquer trick.
I don't buy this for a second. Sectarian conflict will destroy the plans that the Bush Administration has for Iraq and it is in the process of doing just that. Iraq at the moment looks ungovernable. That means no appealing example of a democracy for the rest of the middle east, no stable government to discourage terrorism, no stable supply of oil, no early opportunity for a US withdrawal and hence an end to US casualties --- just a mess that the world will blame on America and that US voters will blame on the Republican Party in the upcoming Congressional elections. John Carson "To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." Thomas Paine
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John Carson wrote:
According to the report, leaflets warning about the wearing of shorts had been distributed earlier. You are right that, without a full investigation that identified the culprits, we can't be sure of the motive, but if threats of such action had been made in the past, then it is a reasonable guess (no more) that the killings represented a carrying out of those threats.
This would be a reasonable assumption if there wasn't so much death and destruction happening everyday. The imported militias/criminals have a real strong presence and have been one of the driving force behind the chaos felt by the common Iraqi. Also if you notice from the report their car was stolen, as for the leaflets I just don't see the relevance [did the leaflets warn of death to anyone wearing shorts?]
The Quran's Rational Arguments (Audio) Background on Prophet Muhammad (in progress) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
-- modified at 0:20 Sunday 28th May, 2006
According to this article, leaflets have been threatening death for people who don't follow their religious laws: "Radicals have been leaving leaflets at homes, forbidding women to drive or go outside without being veiled. The leaflet also warns men not to wear shorts or dress in T-shirts bearing images or English writing. In addition, the leaflet forbids men from wearing goatee beards and anyone from buying mayonnaise. The leaflet threatens violators with death. Islamic militants hold immense power in western and southern Baghdad, and they have been known to kill barbers who give American-style haircuts. The area is regarded as being as off limits to Westerners, where a visit can spell instant death." http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2199305,00.html[^] ----------------------------------------------------- Empires Of Steel[^]
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According to this article, leaflets have been threatening death for people who don't follow their religious laws: "Radicals have been leaving leaflets at homes, forbidding women to drive or go outside without being veiled. The leaflet also warns men not to wear shorts or dress in T-shirts bearing images or English writing. In addition, the leaflet forbids men from wearing goatee beards and anyone from buying mayonnaise. The leaflet threatens violators with death. Islamic militants hold immense power in western and southern Baghdad, and they have been known to kill barbers who give American-style haircuts. The area is regarded as being as off limits to Westerners, where a visit can spell instant death." http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2199305,00.html[^] ----------------------------------------------------- Empires Of Steel[^]
Brit wrote:
anyone from buying mayonnaise. The leaflet threatens violators with death.
I just don't believe this. Even when stores selling Alcholol is targeted, it is usually done at night time when no one is there. My original question though is how does the reporter know this, did they see the leaflets or did some 'govt' spokesman tell them.
From the article:
An Iraqi National Guard checkpoint was about 100m from the site of the ambush, but the soldiers did nothing, witnesses said.
Not suprised at all by this, chances are they are involved.
Brit wrote:
Islamic militants hold immense power in western and southern Baghdad, and they have been known to kill barbers who give American-style haircuts. The area is regarded as being as off limits to Westerners, where a visit can spell instant death.
Agreed major parts of Iraq are not in control of troops/govt, as for the barber thing I am not sure where this is coming from [people have bigger things to worry about than haircuts, for example getting more than two hours of electricity]. As for being offlimits, its a war zone. Its off limits to everyone. Planes are still dropping bombs, and running street battles still occuring with more intensity and frequency. Baghdad itself is off limits to westerners/arabs/people in decent cars/or anyone who goes further than their doorstep.
The Quran's Rational Arguments (Audio) Background on Prophet Muhammad (in progress) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
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Brit wrote:
anyone from buying mayonnaise. The leaflet threatens violators with death.
I just don't believe this. Even when stores selling Alcholol is targeted, it is usually done at night time when no one is there. My original question though is how does the reporter know this, did they see the leaflets or did some 'govt' spokesman tell them.
From the article:
An Iraqi National Guard checkpoint was about 100m from the site of the ambush, but the soldiers did nothing, witnesses said.
Not suprised at all by this, chances are they are involved.
Brit wrote:
Islamic militants hold immense power in western and southern Baghdad, and they have been known to kill barbers who give American-style haircuts. The area is regarded as being as off limits to Westerners, where a visit can spell instant death.
Agreed major parts of Iraq are not in control of troops/govt, as for the barber thing I am not sure where this is coming from [people have bigger things to worry about than haircuts, for example getting more than two hours of electricity]. As for being offlimits, its a war zone. Its off limits to everyone. Planes are still dropping bombs, and running street battles still occuring with more intensity and frequency. Baghdad itself is off limits to westerners/arabs/people in decent cars/or anyone who goes further than their doorstep.
The Quran's Rational Arguments (Audio) Background on Prophet Muhammad (in progress) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
A.A. wrote:
I just don't believe this.
Well, I'm going to trust a reporter in Baghdad over your word. BTW, I hear this all the time from people on the US Right - that the media can't be trusted, and then they insert their own pet theory about the incident - which always ends up playing to their own biases. I really don't see your comments as much different from the 'don't trust the media - make up your own story' that's so popular with the US' Right.
A.A. wrote:
Agreed major parts of Iraq are not in control of troops/govt, as for the barber thing I am not sure where this is coming from [people have bigger things to worry about than haircuts, for example getting more than two hours of electricity].
It's not really pertinent whether people have bigger things to worry about. Are the fundamentalists in a position to decide "do I want to kill the barber who gives Western haircuts or get the electricity working?" Of course not. They aren't in a position to do anything about the electricity. Having "bigger things to worry about" means nothing if you aren't in a position to affect those things. Further, people simply don't work on one project at a time. You might very well level the same charge against people on the US Right. The US is still in Iraq, but the religious right was pushing for things like banning gay marriage, abortion, and intervening in the Terri Schiavo situation[^]. Just because Iraq is a bigger issue that those other things clearly doesn't mean that they are going to spend all their time on the Iraq issue. I have to think that Iraqis are multitaskers as well.
A.A. wrote:
As for being offlimits, its a war zone. Its off limits to everyone.
Please. :rolleyes: There are still people living there. There has been no mass exodus from Baghdad. The streets are definately not empty. Are you denying that? Further, I really don't think you're in a position to deny that certain barbers are being killed. People notice if certain people are being more heavy targetted than others. Pair that with threats against people doing certain things and it doesn't take a mathematician to figure out that people cro
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If you look at the main players that are fighting each other you would see that they are the occupation and those they brought with them [the Badr brigade/SCIRI] and the locals and those that came to fight the occupation. Even a good portion of the Govt[if you want to call it that] that is yet to be formed is imported. Contrary to what the media has been trumpting here this is not purly a sectarian/ethnic conflict. On the other hand now there is some internal strife, though alot of it seems to be repeatedly instigated by external forces, look at the Madaen incident and many similiar incidents. The old divide and conquer trick.
The Quran's Rational Arguments (Audio) Background on Prophet Muhammad (in progress) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
No one said it was "purly a sectarian/ethnic conflict". What he said was that sectarian/ethic violence was a major part ("the Iraqis seem to now mainly be fighting each other"). I completely agree with that. I wouldn't characterize it as a cultural thing, though - more of an internal struggle between Iraqis fighting for a future makeup of the Iraqi nation layered on top of ethnic violence and history. Some religious conservatives in Iraq want laws to enforce a conservative society in Iraq. Some don't want a democracy at all because a democracy is seen as contradicting Islamic law. I really don't know how you could characterize this an an occupation/resistence to occupation thing when so many bombs are going off in mosques and markets in Iraq. ----------------------------------------------------- Empires Of Steel[^]
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A.A. wrote:
I just don't believe this.
Well, I'm going to trust a reporter in Baghdad over your word. BTW, I hear this all the time from people on the US Right - that the media can't be trusted, and then they insert their own pet theory about the incident - which always ends up playing to their own biases. I really don't see your comments as much different from the 'don't trust the media - make up your own story' that's so popular with the US' Right.
A.A. wrote:
Agreed major parts of Iraq are not in control of troops/govt, as for the barber thing I am not sure where this is coming from [people have bigger things to worry about than haircuts, for example getting more than two hours of electricity].
It's not really pertinent whether people have bigger things to worry about. Are the fundamentalists in a position to decide "do I want to kill the barber who gives Western haircuts or get the electricity working?" Of course not. They aren't in a position to do anything about the electricity. Having "bigger things to worry about" means nothing if you aren't in a position to affect those things. Further, people simply don't work on one project at a time. You might very well level the same charge against people on the US Right. The US is still in Iraq, but the religious right was pushing for things like banning gay marriage, abortion, and intervening in the Terri Schiavo situation[^]. Just because Iraq is a bigger issue that those other things clearly doesn't mean that they are going to spend all their time on the Iraq issue. I have to think that Iraqis are multitaskers as well.
A.A. wrote:
As for being offlimits, its a war zone. Its off limits to everyone.
Please. :rolleyes: There are still people living there. There has been no mass exodus from Baghdad. The streets are definately not empty. Are you denying that? Further, I really don't think you're in a position to deny that certain barbers are being killed. People notice if certain people are being more heavy targetted than others. Pair that with threats against people doing certain things and it doesn't take a mathematician to figure out that people cro
As for your point about the media, all I am asking for is the source and if given is it a neutral party[If its from the Interior Ministry, they are responsible for a large portion of the killings].
Brit wrote:
Please. There are still people living there. There has been no mass exodus from Baghdad. The streets are definately not empty. Are you denying that?
Ask an Iraqi who has familiy members in Iraq how dire the situation in Baghdad is.
The Quran's Rational Arguments (Audio) Background on Prophet Muhammad (in progress) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
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No one said it was "purly a sectarian/ethnic conflict". What he said was that sectarian/ethic violence was a major part ("the Iraqis seem to now mainly be fighting each other"). I completely agree with that. I wouldn't characterize it as a cultural thing, though - more of an internal struggle between Iraqis fighting for a future makeup of the Iraqi nation layered on top of ethnic violence and history. Some religious conservatives in Iraq want laws to enforce a conservative society in Iraq. Some don't want a democracy at all because a democracy is seen as contradicting Islamic law. I really don't know how you could characterize this an an occupation/resistence to occupation thing when so many bombs are going off in mosques and markets in Iraq. ----------------------------------------------------- Empires Of Steel[^]
Brit wrote:
I really don't know how you could characterize this an an occupation/resistence to occupation thing when so many bombs are going off in mosques and markets in Iraq.
Ask Khalilzad.
The Quran's Rational Arguments (Audio) Background on Prophet Muhammad (in progress) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
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An invasion that destroys everything. Add ontop of that a militia that would do anything to consolidate the power given to them, and people are saying the violence seems 'almost a cultural thing' :~
The Quran's Rational Arguments (Audio) Background on Prophet Muhammad (in progress) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
A.A. wrote:
and people are saying the violence seems 'almost a cultural thing'
I need no further evidence to prove to me that many Muslims are fanatical terrorists. I only have to read the "kill all Jews" rhetoric of the Iranian leader, or read the daily reports of Iraqis killing other Iraqis, or observe how if a bird cheeps at the wrong time of day the killing begins. Your Quran's Rational Arguments is an oxymoron. Marc Pensieve Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson -- modified at 21:47 Monday 29th May, 2006