Another important issue, no doubt
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Rob Graham wrote:
Strategic stupidity, combined with tactical incompetence.
Do you expect they to lay down and let the first ammendment to specific deny a persons rights pass unopposed? It's not strategic, it's principle.
Hey, if you want to lose another election on 'principle', then let me be the last to try and stop you. It cost you Ohio in 2004 (Republicans got the largest percentage of African American votes in their history there, largely on this issue). Go ahead, make a big fuss over your 'principles'. You really will further them by blowing your best chance to regain either the Senate or the House in years. Brilliant strategy. You guys just don't get it, do you? Republicans know this hasn't got a snowballs chance in Hell of passing the Senate (with the required 2/3 majority), but they do know that Democrats will feel compelled to rise loudly to the 'defense', and will continue to make noise about it all through the election. And this will only serve to motivate the religious right (and that part of the normally 'safe' religious left that you lost last time). You and Alvaro have already proven my point.
Last modified: Monday, June 05, 2006 7:34:07 PM -- close paren...
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
However (witness Mass.) every time a state passes a law, by elected officials who represent the will of the majority of a state's citizens, state and federal courts find a convenient way to shoot holes in the law.
Why can't these laws be made in such a way that they're bullet proof?
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Thirdly, if homosexual marriage becomes legal then on what legal basis will you use to prevent my marrying either the Olsen twins or my stump-broke cow? The answer is you can't because one alternative version of mariage isn't any different than another alternative.
Yes, the old slippery slope argument... The gay marriage issue is not about removing all the limits of marriage. It's about removing the gender rules. Marriage should be between two unrelated consenting adults. Their genders should not matter. That's all. Alvaro
Alvaro Mendez wrote:
Why can't these laws be made in such a way that they're bullet proof?
Even when written carefully, liberal judges can find technicalities to overturn them. Georgia's state constitutional ammendment on marriage in 2004 passed with 76% of the vote. It was struck down on the grounds that it adressed two issues in one ballot item (it defined the state's position on both marriage and civil union - as if those were unrelated ) the judge held that voters should have been allowed to vote on those separately, and so struck down the ammendment. The ammendment will likely be back this year - as two ballot items. And it will pass with the same percentage. And probably be struck down again on some obscure technicallity.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Why not?
Because gender is a social construct, not something someone inherently is. A decent enough way of looking at it, I suppose, but I'm no expert.[^] I.e. what's the difference between a "man" marrying a "woman" vs a "very masculine female" marrying a "very feminine man" or a "very feminine man" marrying a "very masculine man" vs a "sterile female" marrying a "regular Joe" One way of looking at it, anyway. - F
Fisticuffs wrote:
Because gender is a social construct, not something someone inherently is.
BS! Gender is purely biological. Either you have an X a Y chromosome or you don't. Don't confuse gender with sexual preference or sexual identification, although both of these are valid topics in this context, they are not gender, and gender is biologically inherent, even when 'mismatched' with the other two non-inherent attributes.
Last modified: Monday, June 05, 2006 8:28:46 PM --
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To begin with, Reid is a moron. Secondly, what everyone misses is that marriage is a states rights issue, not federal. However (witness Mass.) every time a state passes a law, by elected officials who represent the will of the majority of a state's citizens, state and federal courts find a convenient way to shoot holes in the law. Ergo the need for an amendment, even though I agree it shouldn't be a constituitional issue it almost has to be to keep judges from legislating. Thirdly, if homosexual marriage becomes legal then on what legal basis will you use to prevent my marrying either the Olsen twins or my stump-broke cow? The answer is you can't because one alternative version of mariage isn't any different than another alternative. Mike "We ain't stuck on stupid." badass Lt. General Russel Honore **"Remember - live bunnies are a great source of nourishment"**silly-assed cartoon A vegan is someone who never heard a carrot cry!
Mike Gaskey wrote:
my marrying either the Olsen twins
If you would seriously consider marrying the Olsen twits (mispelling intended), you need immediate psychiatric treatment. :)
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Hey, if you want to lose another election on 'principle', then let me be the last to try and stop you. It cost you Ohio in 2004 (Republicans got the largest percentage of African American votes in their history there, largely on this issue). Go ahead, make a big fuss over your 'principles'. You really will further them by blowing your best chance to regain either the Senate or the House in years. Brilliant strategy. You guys just don't get it, do you? Republicans know this hasn't got a snowballs chance in Hell of passing the Senate (with the required 2/3 majority), but they do know that Democrats will feel compelled to rise loudly to the 'defense', and will continue to make noise about it all through the election. And this will only serve to motivate the religious right (and that part of the normally 'safe' religious left that you lost last time). You and Alvaro have already proven my point.
Last modified: Monday, June 05, 2006 7:34:07 PM -- close paren...
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Fisticuffs wrote:
Because gender is a social construct, not something someone inherently is.
BS! Gender is purely biological. Either you have an X a Y chromosome or you don't. Don't confuse gender with sexual preference or sexual identification, although both of these are valid topics in this context, they are not gender, and gender is biologically inherent, even when 'mismatched' with the other two non-inherent attributes.
Last modified: Monday, June 05, 2006 8:28:46 PM --
Rob Graham wrote:
Either you have an X a Y chromosome or you don't.
That's sex, not gender. Check your definitions. Edit: I should be more specific why I say this; from dictionary.com: Usage Note: Traditionally, gender has been used primarily to refer to the grammatical categories of “masculine,” “feminine,” and “neuter,” but in recent years the word has become well established in its use to refer to sex-based categories, as in phrases such as gender gap and the politics of gender. This usage is supported by the practice of many anthropologists, who reserve sex for reference to biological categories, while using gender to refer to social or cultural categories. According to this rule, one would say The effectiveness of the medication appears to depend on the sex (not gender) of the patient, but In peasant societies, gender (not sex) roles are likely to be more clearly defined. This distinction is useful in principle, but it is by no means widely observed, and considerable variation in usage occurs at all levels. - F -- modified at 21:58 Monday 5th June, 2006
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Democratic leader enumerates issues gay marriage vote won't solve[^] Well said, Senator. And here's what Joe Scarborough had to say: Everybody knows Bush is pandering on gay marriage[^] Alvaro
The bible was written when people were even more stupid than they are today. Can you imagine that? - David Cross
Since marriage is between a man and a woman, is a hermaphrodite allowed to marry itself?
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Thanks.:rose:
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Fisticuffs wrote:
Because gender is a social construct, not something someone inherently is.
BS! Gender is purely biological. Either you have an X a Y chromosome or you don't. Don't confuse gender with sexual preference or sexual identification, although both of these are valid topics in this context, they are not gender, and gender is biologically inherent, even when 'mismatched' with the other two non-inherent attributes.
Last modified: Monday, June 05, 2006 8:28:46 PM --
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Since marriage is between a man and a woman, is a hermaphrodite allowed to marry itself?
From Georgia's version: (a) This state shall recognize as marriage only the union of man and woman. Marriages between persons of the same sex are prohibited in this state. The second sentence would eliminate hermaphrodites from marrying themselves (since that would be a marriage between persons of the same sex (although I bet some judge would permit it based on there only being one person involved...)
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
my marrying either the Olsen twins
If you would seriously consider marrying the Olsen twits (mispelling intended), you need immediate psychiatric treatment. :)
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
If you would seriously consider marrying the Olsen
see my earlier reply, don't presume to know which Olsen twins I am referring to. Mike "We ain't stuck on stupid." badass Lt. General Russel Honore **"Remember - live bunnies are a great source of nourishment"**silly-assed cartoon A vegan is someone who never heard a carrot cry!
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Rob Graham wrote:
Either you have an X a Y chromosome or you don't.
That's sex, not gender. Check your definitions. Edit: I should be more specific why I say this; from dictionary.com: Usage Note: Traditionally, gender has been used primarily to refer to the grammatical categories of “masculine,” “feminine,” and “neuter,” but in recent years the word has become well established in its use to refer to sex-based categories, as in phrases such as gender gap and the politics of gender. This usage is supported by the practice of many anthropologists, who reserve sex for reference to biological categories, while using gender to refer to social or cultural categories. According to this rule, one would say The effectiveness of the medication appears to depend on the sex (not gender) of the patient, but In peasant societies, gender (not sex) roles are likely to be more clearly defined. This distinction is useful in principle, but it is by no means widely observed, and considerable variation in usage occurs at all levels. - F -- modified at 21:58 Monday 5th June, 2006
A more scientific definition[^]. gender 1. Kind; sort. One gender of herbs. 2. sex, male or female. 3. a classification of nouns, primarily according to sex; and secondarily according to some fancied or imputed quality associated with sex. Gender is a grammatical distinction and applies to words only. sex is natural distinction and applies to living objects. (R. Morris) Your cite even points out that the disticntion between sex and gender:
is useful in principle, but it is by no means widely observed, and considerable variation in usage occurs at all levels.
The last sentence of definition 3 is more accurate.
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Are you suggesting that marriage should be restricted to human individuals, one with XY and one with XX? Warning: This is a loaded question. - F
I'm not suggesting anything. I am objecting to the misuse of "gender" in this context. and the appropriate answer to your loaded question would be that only one of the two should posses a Y chromosome (allowing for the multiple anomallies involving 'extra' or 'missing' X chromosomes) ;P
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Why not?
Because gender is a social construct, not something someone inherently is. A decent enough way of looking at it, I suppose, but I'm no expert.[^] I.e. what's the difference between a "man" marrying a "woman" vs a "very masculine female" marrying a "very feminine man" or a "very feminine man" marrying a "very masculine man" vs a "sterile female" marrying a "regular Joe" One way of looking at it, anyway. - F
No "gender" is a word that means what ever we wish it to mean. This argument cuts to the core of what really bugs me so much about "liberalism" (neo-Marxism). The issue of homosexuality has been made into a moral issue for one reason and one reason only. Just as with abortion, it is only important precisely because it conflicts with a tradional world view of human existence. The issue has nothing to do with anything more noble than dismantaling and reconstructing human society which the left has committed itself to achieving as the single most important aspect of its moral agenda. By completely separating humanity from the traditions of the past, the left will be more easily able to rewrite those traditions as they see fit. The single greatest hurdle to being able to do that is the stubborn refusal of American society to abandon its religions, free market traditions. Any issue that significantly challanges those traditions are important to foist on our society because they inject thoroughly non-religious traditions into our social system. The left does not care about homosexuals one way or another, but they do care about undermining the religious principles our society clings to. Homosexuals are just the current most convenient vehicle for doing that. That is the only reason this issue is important to them. They want uncontested control of the state and the social agenda. They want control and intend to destroy anything that stands in their way by whatever means necessary. "You get that which you tolerate"
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Rob Graham wrote:
Strategic stupidity, combined with tactical incompetence.
Do you expect they to lay down and let the first ammendment to specific deny a persons rights pass unopposed? It's not strategic, it's principle.
Wjousts wrote:
Do you expect they to lay down and let the first ammendment to specific deny a persons rights ...
I'm actually pretty sure that would have been the 16th amendment. "You get that which you tolerate"
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You're damn right he's right. The left has badly miscalculated politically. They have badly overreached and now are caught between their own extremists who demand "principles" (ie Communism) and the center who are more comfortable with the traditional extremism of the far right than they are of the left. And there is absolutely nothing they can do about it but lose. God I love it. "You get that which you tolerate"
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You're damn right he's right. The left has badly miscalculated politically. They have badly overreached and now are caught between their own extremists who demand "principles" (ie Communism) and the center who are more comfortable with the traditional extremism of the far right than they are of the left. And there is absolutely nothing they can do about it but lose. God I love it. "You get that which you tolerate"
I am continually astounded by the lefts unfailing capacity to let emotional reactions to issues blind them to practical, tactical and strategic reality. One would think that they really believe that a proven ability to shoot oneself in the foot will somehow make them irresistible as candidates to run the nation.
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A more scientific definition[^]. gender 1. Kind; sort. One gender of herbs. 2. sex, male or female. 3. a classification of nouns, primarily according to sex; and secondarily according to some fancied or imputed quality associated with sex. Gender is a grammatical distinction and applies to words only. sex is natural distinction and applies to living objects. (R. Morris) Your cite even points out that the disticntion between sex and gender:
is useful in principle, but it is by no means widely observed, and considerable variation in usage occurs at all levels.
The last sentence of definition 3 is more accurate.
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I'm not suggesting anything. I am objecting to the misuse of "gender" in this context. and the appropriate answer to your loaded question would be that only one of the two should posses a Y chromosome (allowing for the multiple anomallies involving 'extra' or 'missing' X chromosomes) ;P
Rob Graham wrote:
and the appropriate answer to your loaded question would be that only one of the two should posses a Y chromosome (allowing for the multiple anomallies involving 'extra' or 'missing' X chromosomes)
Well, this is why this is a loaded question: What aspect of marriage is consistent with this requirement? The potential for breeding? Having one XX and one XY certainly can't guarantee this. Besides, we don't force married couples to breed now - it certainly isn't one of the requirments or expectations of modern heterosexual marriage. The requirement of love and commitment? Having one XX and one XY chromosome can't guarantee this either. You could, in fact, from a genetics standpoint, argue the whole issue down to the presence or absence of the SrY sex determining gene on the Y chromosome. If that's the case, then how far do we take it? Does it need to be functional? What if there is a mutation on it? In mice, it seems to be the testosterone produced by the testes which are triggered to differentiate by the SrY gene that shapes the brain in development to become a masculine-behaving brain or a feminine-behaving brain, not the presence of the Y chromosome. So what if the testosterone producing mechanism is defective? Another example: there are genes independent of the fly sex chromosomes in Drosophila that cause males to perform unproductive homosexual mating rituals. * My point is: even from a biological standpoint, there is so much variation in what constitutes "normal" sexual development, and so much more to learn about it, that imposing hypocritical** roles on people based on an overly simplistic view of human sexual dynamics is completely ridiculous. I hope this clarifies my position. *References available upon request **IMO - F
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No "gender" is a word that means what ever we wish it to mean. This argument cuts to the core of what really bugs me so much about "liberalism" (neo-Marxism). The issue of homosexuality has been made into a moral issue for one reason and one reason only. Just as with abortion, it is only important precisely because it conflicts with a tradional world view of human existence. The issue has nothing to do with anything more noble than dismantaling and reconstructing human society which the left has committed itself to achieving as the single most important aspect of its moral agenda. By completely separating humanity from the traditions of the past, the left will be more easily able to rewrite those traditions as they see fit. The single greatest hurdle to being able to do that is the stubborn refusal of American society to abandon its religions, free market traditions. Any issue that significantly challanges those traditions are important to foist on our society because they inject thoroughly non-religious traditions into our social system. The left does not care about homosexuals one way or another, but they do care about undermining the religious principles our society clings to. Homosexuals are just the current most convenient vehicle for doing that. That is the only reason this issue is important to them. They want uncontested control of the state and the social agenda. They want control and intend to destroy anything that stands in their way by whatever means necessary. "You get that which you tolerate"
Stan Shannon wrote:
No "gender" is a word that means what ever we wish it to mean.
Yes, that's certainly true.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Just as with abortion, it is only important precisely because it conflicts with a tradional world view of human existence.
I agree: a traditional world view born out of ignorance of the mechanics of the biological, chemical, and physical world.
Stan Shannon wrote:
By completely separating humanity from the traditions of the past, the left will be more easily able to rewrite those traditions as they see fit. The single greatest hurdle to being able to do that is the stubborn refusal of American society to abandon its religions, free market traditions.
How is a federal constitutional amendment banning gay marriage consistent with a free market? - F