Adnan's emotions... A white paper [modified]
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Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
the recent attempt by Jorgen is the perfect example
I think you have totally misinterpreted me. I'm not seeking to increase gaps between any religions. What I would like to see though, is removing every religion from every authority which have power over individuals. Theocracy is just another form of fascism...
-- 100% natural. No superstitious additives.
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
think you have totally misinterpreted me.
He meant that the replies by espier and Stan to your post show they are seeking to increase the gap instead of decrease it. He did not mean that you asking the question was divisive, just some of the responses.
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kgaddy wrote:
Umm, where are Christians attacking other religions becasue there is incompatibility? I only know of one religion that does this. Christians get along with Hindus, Jews. We may not agree, but we are not killing each other. On the other hand Islam is currently fighting ALL religions, In all parts of the world.
Today - it's just Islamic extremists causing terrorism all over the world. Tomorrow, we don't know whether Christian, Hindu, Jewish extremists will follow suite in retaliation. It's bad enough that one religion is doing it. I'd hate to live in a world where every religion uses terrorism to propagate itself. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New)Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Today - it's just Islamic extremists causing terrorism all over the world. Tomorrow, we don't know whether Christian, Hindu, Jewish extremists will follow suite in retaliation.
Or it could be the Atheists. Who knows, Stalin was a pretty nasty Atheist who killed more people than Hitler.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
It's bad enough that one religion is doing it. I'd hate to live in a world where every religion uses terrorism to propagate itself.
But that is not happening, so why are you worried about it? My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
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Judah, Your a better person than I am. I hear what you say and I know in my heart you are right. Some questions?
Judah Himango wrote:
the whole point of all of it, boils down to 2 things: love God, and love other people.
What if the other people do not love you back, and worse, want to kill you?
Judah Himango wrote:
but at least the disagreeing can be done with respect and without backstabbing and hatred;
I agree, and I pray for this. But when only one party is respectful, and the other ones want to kill you, what then? I hope someday that Christians, Jews and Muslims can live together and respect one another. But it seems a long way off. Only one group is doing 99% of the head chopping, and terrorism. What do we do until then? Good luck to your brother and I hope he stays safe. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
kgaddy wrote:
What if the other people do not love you back, and worse, want to kill you?
Jesus faced this dilemma. He provided guidance in the gospels.
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Judah, Your a better person than I am. I hear what you say and I know in my heart you are right. Some questions?
Judah Himango wrote:
the whole point of all of it, boils down to 2 things: love God, and love other people.
What if the other people do not love you back, and worse, want to kill you?
Judah Himango wrote:
but at least the disagreeing can be done with respect and without backstabbing and hatred;
I agree, and I pray for this. But when only one party is respectful, and the other ones want to kill you, what then? I hope someday that Christians, Jews and Muslims can live together and respect one another. But it seems a long way off. Only one group is doing 99% of the head chopping, and terrorism. What do we do until then? Good luck to your brother and I hope he stays safe. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
kgaddy wrote:
Your a better person than I am.
Not at all man, I've done my share of bad things, and plenty of them. I'm not here to put myself on some airy spiritual pedestal. I do appreciate your kind comments though, it encourages me.
kgaddy wrote:
What if the other people do not love you back, and worse, want to kill you?
That's a good question. I've been studying Paul lately; he sure had his share of people that wanted to kill him. He was often on trial (with possible death sentence), he was usually in jail, and he sure had a whole lot of people hating him and conspiring against him, all due to the message about Messiah. One thing that struck me about him is that Paul, AFAIK, never said, "I hate those people" or wished death on them or anything. He was always willing to share the message with those people even if they hated them. He pointed out evil when he saw it, condemned evil when he saw it, but didn't condemn the people. At least, that's what I've taken from his writings. Jesus had a lot of people hating him too (especially religious folks!). He would come down hard on them ("Pharisees, you hypocrites!" etc.) but it is obvious even then he reached out to them to pull them back into the light. One thing different about Jesus, though, is that Jesus actually had the authority to condemn people, not just actions, whereas Paul had no such authority. So it's a little different with Jesus, I think, although he didn't condemn too many people to hell either! On the contrary, it's apparent he opted to forgive and welcome back with open arms, rather than condemn to hell. So, from those things, I'd say you still have to treat Muslims and other non-Christians just as good as another Christian. "Love your neighbor" didn't include any exceptions like "except when they're unbelieving bastards!" ;) It's easier said than done, and you don't want to make a fool of yourself. I had a Jewish girl reply to one of my blogs in a terrible, hateful way, due to my belief in Jesus. I wanted so badly to show her a thing or two, point out her own faults and problems with her ideas, but I held back and tried my best to respond with respect. If we're really serious about believing in God, we should treat other people like God's children, regardless of their own beliefs and backgrounds. It's very easy, from this perspective, to get into the wishy-washy "everyone's way to God is fine" kind of thinking, as well as t
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
Faith in the supernatural, and certainly faith in the specific models of the supernatural specified by monotheistic religion is not required to live a life free from the reckless indulgence of animal desire. It requires will and good counsel, if your faith aids you with that, so be it.
Exactly - very true! That's one area where I thoroughly disagree with Judah - he equates godless people with lawless people! That sort of attitude is only one magnitude away from those used by religious extremists against other religions! :sigh: Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New)Seems to be quite a common attitude among ecumenical types, our Prince Charles is constantly taking the position that faith, any faith in the supernatural is preferable to being an evil rationalist / atheist. And that those who have faith in the preposterous somehow share a bond that unites them against the godless, even when their beliefs are mutually contradictory. Probably comes from living in a secular country that constantly rips the piss out of his many faith based ideas, like alternative medicine on the NHS and wanting to be "Defender of the Faiths".. Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Today - it's just Islamic extremists causing terrorism all over the world. Tomorrow, we don't know whether Christian, Hindu, Jewish extremists will follow suite in retaliation.
Or it could be the Atheists. Who knows, Stalin was a pretty nasty Atheist who killed more people than Hitler.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
It's bad enough that one religion is doing it. I'd hate to live in a world where every religion uses terrorism to propagate itself.
But that is not happening, so why are you worried about it? My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
kgaddy wrote:
Or it could be the Atheists. Who knows, Stalin was a pretty nasty Atheist who killed more people than Hitler.
I don't think that any atheist who wishes to spread atheism is non-religious in nature. By doing that, he's pretty much implementing a religion of sorts (albeit one that's not based on a god). Also atheists shouldn't be equated with the communists of the former USSR era.
kgaddy wrote:
But that is not happening, so why are you worried about it?
I am not particularly worried about it. But I was trying to rationalize why there are Islamic terrorists and why many non-extremist Islamic followers are okay with it. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New) -
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Today - it's just Islamic extremists causing terrorism all over the world. Tomorrow, we don't know whether Christian, Hindu, Jewish extremists will follow suite in retaliation.
Or it could be the Atheists. Who knows, Stalin was a pretty nasty Atheist who killed more people than Hitler.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
It's bad enough that one religion is doing it. I'd hate to live in a world where every religion uses terrorism to propagate itself.
But that is not happening, so why are you worried about it? My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
kgaddy wrote:
But that is not happening, so why are you worried about it?
When did muslim terrosism start and why?
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kgaddy wrote:
Or it could be the Atheists. Who knows, Stalin was a pretty nasty Atheist who killed more people than Hitler.
I don't think that any atheist who wishes to spread atheism is non-religious in nature. By doing that, he's pretty much implementing a religion of sorts (albeit one that's not based on a god). Also atheists shouldn't be equated with the communists of the former USSR era.
kgaddy wrote:
But that is not happening, so why are you worried about it?
I am not particularly worried about it. But I was trying to rationalize why there are Islamic terrorists and why many non-extremist Islamic followers are okay with it. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New)Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
I don't think that any atheist who wishes to spread atheism is non-religious in nature. By doing that, he's pretty much implementing a religion of sorts (albeit one that's not based on a god). Also atheists shouldn't be equated with the communists of the former USSR era.
Atheism is a religion. Agnosticism is not.
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Judah, Your a better person than I am. I hear what you say and I know in my heart you are right. Some questions?
Judah Himango wrote:
the whole point of all of it, boils down to 2 things: love God, and love other people.
What if the other people do not love you back, and worse, want to kill you?
Judah Himango wrote:
but at least the disagreeing can be done with respect and without backstabbing and hatred;
I agree, and I pray for this. But when only one party is respectful, and the other ones want to kill you, what then? I hope someday that Christians, Jews and Muslims can live together and respect one another. But it seems a long way off. Only one group is doing 99% of the head chopping, and terrorism. What do we do until then? Good luck to your brother and I hope he stays safe. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
kgaddy wrote:
What if the other people do not love you back, and worse, want to kill you?
Luke 6:27-29 Luke 21:17 John 15:18-19 Matthew 10:28 Matthew 26:52 1 Peter 3:14-16 1 Thessalonians 4:11-12
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blog -
kgaddy wrote:
Your a better person than I am.
Not at all man, I've done my share of bad things, and plenty of them. I'm not here to put myself on some airy spiritual pedestal. I do appreciate your kind comments though, it encourages me.
kgaddy wrote:
What if the other people do not love you back, and worse, want to kill you?
That's a good question. I've been studying Paul lately; he sure had his share of people that wanted to kill him. He was often on trial (with possible death sentence), he was usually in jail, and he sure had a whole lot of people hating him and conspiring against him, all due to the message about Messiah. One thing that struck me about him is that Paul, AFAIK, never said, "I hate those people" or wished death on them or anything. He was always willing to share the message with those people even if they hated them. He pointed out evil when he saw it, condemned evil when he saw it, but didn't condemn the people. At least, that's what I've taken from his writings. Jesus had a lot of people hating him too (especially religious folks!). He would come down hard on them ("Pharisees, you hypocrites!" etc.) but it is obvious even then he reached out to them to pull them back into the light. One thing different about Jesus, though, is that Jesus actually had the authority to condemn people, not just actions, whereas Paul had no such authority. So it's a little different with Jesus, I think, although he didn't condemn too many people to hell either! On the contrary, it's apparent he opted to forgive and welcome back with open arms, rather than condemn to hell. So, from those things, I'd say you still have to treat Muslims and other non-Christians just as good as another Christian. "Love your neighbor" didn't include any exceptions like "except when they're unbelieving bastards!" ;) It's easier said than done, and you don't want to make a fool of yourself. I had a Jewish girl reply to one of my blogs in a terrible, hateful way, due to my belief in Jesus. I wanted so badly to show her a thing or two, point out her own faults and problems with her ideas, but I held back and tried my best to respond with respect. If we're really serious about believing in God, we should treat other people like God's children, regardless of their own beliefs and backgrounds. It's very easy, from this perspective, to get into the wishy-washy "everyone's way to God is fine" kind of thinking, as well as t
I agree with all this. And I guess I'm trying to understand this with modern events.
Judah Himango wrote:
it's apparent he opted to forgive and welcome back with open arms, rather than condemn to hell.
But that is when they asked to be forgiven.In the meantime, does he expect all of us to close our eyes and take a sword to the head? I mean if that happens, all that believe in him are dead. I really do not mind living next to jews, muslims and everyone else for that matter. I just get upset with these terrorist, and when we try to defend ourselves, we end up being the racist ones. It makes no sense. We should be able to defend ourselves and still be good Christians, right? My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
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kgaddy wrote:
Your a better person than I am.
Not at all man, I've done my share of bad things, and plenty of them. I'm not here to put myself on some airy spiritual pedestal. I do appreciate your kind comments though, it encourages me.
kgaddy wrote:
What if the other people do not love you back, and worse, want to kill you?
That's a good question. I've been studying Paul lately; he sure had his share of people that wanted to kill him. He was often on trial (with possible death sentence), he was usually in jail, and he sure had a whole lot of people hating him and conspiring against him, all due to the message about Messiah. One thing that struck me about him is that Paul, AFAIK, never said, "I hate those people" or wished death on them or anything. He was always willing to share the message with those people even if they hated them. He pointed out evil when he saw it, condemned evil when he saw it, but didn't condemn the people. At least, that's what I've taken from his writings. Jesus had a lot of people hating him too (especially religious folks!). He would come down hard on them ("Pharisees, you hypocrites!" etc.) but it is obvious even then he reached out to them to pull them back into the light. One thing different about Jesus, though, is that Jesus actually had the authority to condemn people, not just actions, whereas Paul had no such authority. So it's a little different with Jesus, I think, although he didn't condemn too many people to hell either! On the contrary, it's apparent he opted to forgive and welcome back with open arms, rather than condemn to hell. So, from those things, I'd say you still have to treat Muslims and other non-Christians just as good as another Christian. "Love your neighbor" didn't include any exceptions like "except when they're unbelieving bastards!" ;) It's easier said than done, and you don't want to make a fool of yourself. I had a Jewish girl reply to one of my blogs in a terrible, hateful way, due to my belief in Jesus. I wanted so badly to show her a thing or two, point out her own faults and problems with her ideas, but I held back and tried my best to respond with respect. If we're really serious about believing in God, we should treat other people like God's children, regardless of their own beliefs and backgrounds. It's very easy, from this perspective, to get into the wishy-washy "everyone's way to God is fine" kind of thinking, as well as t
Paul was visciously attacked by his own Jewish brethren, yet he would have given up his place in heaven so they could be saved.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blog -
kgaddy wrote:
What if the other people do not love you back, and worse, want to kill you?
Luke 6:27-29 Luke 21:17 John 15:18-19 Matthew 10:28 Matthew 26:52 1 Peter 3:14-16 1 Thessalonians 4:11-12
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blog -
kgaddy wrote:
But that is not happening, so why are you worried about it?
When did muslim terrosism start and why?
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Paul was visciously attacked by his own Jewish brethren, yet he would have given up his place in heaven so they could be saved.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blogThe odds of any individual American being killed by a terrorist is very low. We are acting to protect Americans (other than ourselves) from being killed. If we do nothing, then we allow other Americans to be killed by Muslims which, in my view, is the same as murder. -- modified at 15:48 Wednesday 14th June, 2006
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kgaddy wrote:
But that is not happening, so why are you worried about it?
When did muslim terrosism start and why?
Right after Allah died.
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kgaddy wrote:
Or it could be the Atheists. Who knows, Stalin was a pretty nasty Atheist who killed more people than Hitler.
I don't think that any atheist who wishes to spread atheism is non-religious in nature. By doing that, he's pretty much implementing a religion of sorts (albeit one that's not based on a god). Also atheists shouldn't be equated with the communists of the former USSR era.
kgaddy wrote:
But that is not happening, so why are you worried about it?
I am not particularly worried about it. But I was trying to rationalize why there are Islamic terrorists and why many non-extremist Islamic followers are okay with it. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New)Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Also atheists shouldn't be equated with the communists of the former USSR era.
Not all Athiests are communist. I was just pointing out an Athiest, outlawing other religions, and killing many people.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
I am not particularly worried about it. But I was trying to rationalize why there are Islamic terrorists and why many non-extremist Islamic followers are okay with it.
Yes, this is scary. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
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Right after Allah died.
espeir wrote:
Right after Allah died.
You probably mean Mohammed? Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New) -
espeir wrote:
Right after Allah died.
You probably mean Mohammed? Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New)That's the one.
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Judah Himango wrote:
I don't buy the nonsense that everyone's way to God is alright
That's strange to me. So to you, the only way to God is the Jesus way - any other way won't get to God. To Adnan, it's through Mohammed's ways and no other. And to Hindus, through temples and Hindu prayers (though moderate Hindus believe that Christians and Muslims eventually pray to the same single-god-entity as Hindus do). Why cannot there be multiple paths to a god (or gods)? Why go by the "my belief is the only true belief" theory? Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New)i dont know about hinduism but if you obeserve abrahamic faith closely then you will find similarity that all talks about same God which is called yahweh by Judah hamingo,God by C.Garaus and Allah by me.Different language same meaning.Yes,its sad but true that same GOd become disputed due to People who were sent in ancien times by God,His representatives who were named as David(AS),Moses(AS),Jesus(AS) and Muhammad(SAW).I often use analogy of a product promoted by marketing agents.God had a product or say a "message" which He wanted to be promoted to people of earth.Now I think its a bit weird or illogical that God goes door to door to spread His message.It doesnt even happen in our world and only marketting agents go door to door to spread "word" about their product.Now if a message of Agents is not understood properly then should Owner of product be blamed for the product?now two people who heard about product from two different agents will argue everytime and abuse each other becuase they were not capable to grasp the main message of product owner.This is what happened with these 3 faiths.My analogy doesnt work cent percent for religions but some how its relevent to how message of God spread on earth by few people.
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Judah Himango wrote:
I don't buy the nonsense that everyone's way to God is alright
That's strange to me. So to you, the only way to God is the Jesus way - any other way won't get to God. To Adnan, it's through Mohammed's ways and no other. And to Hindus, through temples and Hindu prayers (though moderate Hindus believe that Christians and Muslims eventually pray to the same single-god-entity as Hindus do). Why cannot there be multiple paths to a god (or gods)? Why go by the "my belief is the only true belief" theory? Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New)Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
to Hindus, through temples and Hindu prayers
Because some are true and some are not. :) If a man came along and said, "money is my god, and the more I spend the more he's happy", that doesn't mean he is right. I reject the notion that people should be punished for something in their "past life" which they've no knowledge of; I am not a Hindu. I reject the notion the conquest and robbery is God's way; I am not a follower of Mohammed. Jews are just about right; they are looking for Messiah (even in modern times, they're still looking for him), but they've turned faith into God into a ritual ceremony; I am not a practicer of Judaism. But I do accept the reality that God is all about love and forgiveness; I believe in Jesus, who is the Messiah. You can't have real belief in God and believe that all ways lead to God; it doesn't work if God is real. You can't be intellectually honest with yourself if you say, "I believe in Jesus", only to turn around and say that everyone from Hindus to Buddhists are living right before God. Why? God has rules for right living. If he didn't, there would be no good and evil, no real right and wrong beyond human speculation. One thing Jesus said is that no one comes to God but through him. He was specially setup as Messiah for this purpose. We don't call him Messiah just because he was some old guy that talked about God alot; he is Messiah because he was specially appointed by God so that everyone -- whether Jew, gentile, Hindu, any race, color, religion, can come to God through Him. (see John 14:6[^]). Whereas previously God had picked a small group of people, Israel, to be a people of God (this was thanks to some promises God gave to a few certain folks for their faith in God), Jesus swung the doors wide open for all humanity to come into light, to know the real God, the one and only. If I have this knowledge, and I am honest in believing that this Jesus is the person he claimed to be, how could I ever say "all paths lead to God", when they clearly don't? (As a someone who tried the do-it-your-own-way of living, I can say most paths lead downward!) To say all paths lead to God is nothing short of a lie meant to pacify differences between religions. That's not what God is about. God is about