Global warming: science and pseudo science [modified]
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Got into a conversation with some folks on another site recently about the global warming issue. This lead to some interesting research (web-only, of course) I know it's kinda like urinating on a hornet's nest, but in the hopes of enlightening a few of the remaining open minds around here, I offer these two web sites: http://stephenschneider.stanford.edu/[^] http://www.junkscience.com/[^] Compare and contrast! -- modified at 1:03 Friday 16th June, 2006
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ihoecken wrote:
in fact it cause a temperatur reduction there
This is still just theory and here you are stating confidently that europe will get colder because of global warming!
ihoecken wrote:
Because of building in rivers the number of floodings in the near of rivers has been increased
No shit. Sticking your head in food prcessor increases the chance of having your head turned to pulp.
ihoecken wrote:
because of barrages the speed of the turning of earth has been reduced
Link?
ihoecken wrote:
If you deforest a region, the climate changes
Why. Is the cliamte of a forrested part of a country different to the part composed of grassland? Nunc est bibendum
fat_boy wrote:
This is still just theory and here you are stating confidently that europe will get colder because of global warming!
Of course it is. We are talking about theories. In my first post I said, that I don't know wether it's true or not. But your arguements are taken out of some theories, too.
fat_boy wrote:
No sh*t. Sticking your head in food prcessor increases the chance of having your head turned to pulp.
I don't argue with you in that style.
fat_boy wrote:
Why. Is the cliamte of a forrested part of a country different to the part composed of grassland?
Yes, it is. There is a difference in temperature and rainfall. Take an island in the "Bodensee" (a like in Germany), there is a small island call Mainau. The temperature is much higher there, so that flowers and fruits grow there, you can't plant outdoor anywhere else in Germany. This island is about 45 hectares.
fat_boy wrote:
Link?
I don't have a good link (just some discussion about this theme in German), but the explanation is that the moon-rotation is reduced by the water (so today we see the same side), but the mass of the moon is able to slow down the rotation of earth (you can see it that earth isn't a sphere, it is baggy towards the moon). This effect is because that speed of water is slower than the speed of the rotation (it always follows the moon, but there is a difference). If more water is impound, less water can follow the moon, so the mass left behind is bigger. This leads to a reduction of the rotation. Link added: http://www.imweber.de/texte/gezeiten.htm Regards, Ingo ------------------------------ PROST Roleplaying Game War doesn't determine who's right. War determines who's left. -- modified at 10:15 Friday 16th June, 2006
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ihoecken wrote:
in fact it cause a temperatur reduction there
This is still just theory and here you are stating confidently that europe will get colder because of global warming!
ihoecken wrote:
Because of building in rivers the number of floodings in the near of rivers has been increased
No shit. Sticking your head in food prcessor increases the chance of having your head turned to pulp.
ihoecken wrote:
because of barrages the speed of the turning of earth has been reduced
Link?
ihoecken wrote:
If you deforest a region, the climate changes
Why. Is the cliamte of a forrested part of a country different to the part composed of grassland? Nunc est bibendum
fat_boy wrote:
This is still just theory and here you are stating confidently that europe will get colder because of global warming!
I don't think that's disputed. That fact is that it could - all it would take would be for the gulf stream to stop (or reverse, which would be even worse I'd expect). Climate is a chaotic syustem, and therefore by its very nature exceptionally hard to model. Given that and the vested interests on all sides it should be no surprise that there is no general agreement on what is (or is not) happening and why (or why not). What I do know is that chaotic systems can change without warning given a nudge which appears insignificant. Given that, I personally believe it's in our interest to ensure we disturb the environment as little as humanely possible. That's plainly not the case right now - quite frankly we are a bunch of irresponsible little brats when it comes to the integrity of our environment. Earth is, after all, the only planet we inhabit at the moment. If we screw it up right now we as a species won't get a second chance. :rose: Anna :rose: Currently working mostly on: Visual Lint :cool: Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "Be yourself - not what others think you should be" - Marcia Graesch "Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart" - A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work.
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OK, here is my take on global warming. I dont know anything about the science, or the computer models, or so on but; A volcano spews out a hell of a lot of CO2, dust, SO2 and god knows what else. Volcanos happen every 5 years or so, so it is complete crap to talk about nature being non poluting. It was also a lot warmer before 1500 or so. Viking settlements in Greenland, Romans growing grapes in the north of England, all attest to that. The world, if we are to believe the scientists, millions of years ago, was a festering, methane and CO2 swamp, with volcanos erruoting and so on. ie, uninhabitable. And it stabilised. To what we have today. The system balanced itself. So tell me, can the human race really throw such a stable system off course? A system that can and has coped with such extreme conditions? I think not. And I think the temperature rise we are seeing is perfectly normal, and only taking us back to where we were in the time of the Romans. Nunc est bibendum
fat_boy wrote:
I dont know anything about the science, or the computer models, or so on but [here is my opinion anyway, using "facts" and arguments that are basically drawn straight from my own head and out of thin air despite the presence of at least one good source in this thread alone, because for some strange reason in our society scientific illiteracy is nothing to be ashamed of when making an argument on a scientific matter - and hey, if I'm wrong, someone who knows better can just come along and correct me, right? Saving me from actually actively seeking out information on the subject! Hooray!];
I mean, can you actually see yourself saying something like, "I don't know anything about electricity, but this is why there's no problem with the wiring in your house..." - F
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OK, here is my take on global warming. I dont know anything about the science, or the computer models, or so on but; A volcano spews out a hell of a lot of CO2, dust, SO2 and god knows what else. Volcanos happen every 5 years or so, so it is complete crap to talk about nature being non poluting. It was also a lot warmer before 1500 or so. Viking settlements in Greenland, Romans growing grapes in the north of England, all attest to that. The world, if we are to believe the scientists, millions of years ago, was a festering, methane and CO2 swamp, with volcanos erruoting and so on. ie, uninhabitable. And it stabilised. To what we have today. The system balanced itself. So tell me, can the human race really throw such a stable system off course? A system that can and has coped with such extreme conditions? I think not. And I think the temperature rise we are seeing is perfectly normal, and only taking us back to where we were in the time of the Romans. Nunc est bibendum
fat_boy wrote:
olcanos happen every 5 years or so, so it is complete crap to talk about nature being non poluting.
No one has said that.
fat_boy wrote:
It was also a lot warmer before 1500 or so. Viking settlements in Greenland, Romans growing grapes in the north of England, all attest to that.
Of course. Everybody understands that the climate changes naturally over time.
fat_boy wrote:
The world, if we are to believe the scientists, millions of years ago, was a festering, methane and CO2 swamp, with volcanos erruoting and so on. ie, uninhabitable.
That's baloney. Life has been on the planet for about 1/2 billion years, not a few million.
fat_boy wrote:
And it stabilised. To what we have today. The system balanced itself.
No, it's not stable; it's dynamic. Our global climate system is in a state that sientis refer to as "chaordic" - that is, right on the edge of order and chaos. (This is sometimes refered to as a "metastable" state.) A "stable" system is one in which all the water is either frozen or liquid (for example) - we don't want that.
fat_boy wrote:
I dont know anything about the science, or the computer models, or so on but;
Umm - perhaps you should educate yourself, then, rather than spouting opinions based on ignorance.
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fat_boy wrote:
A volcano spews out a hell of a lot of CO2, dust, SO2 and god knows what else. Volcanos happen every 5 years or so, so it is complete crap to talk about nature being non poluting.
Yes, but volcanism is fairly constant. Volcanos spew co2 into the atmosphere and the biosphere absorbs it at a constant rate that has kept the envirionment more or less stable. In addition to that normal rate, humans are adding billions of tons of co2 into the atmosphere. That is an artifical change and can be logically expected to produce artifical results. The planet itself is probably in little danger from a little extra CO2. The question is can we purturb the atmosphere just enough to make life very,very, rough on ourselves. "You get that which you tolerate"
Your first 5 from me, Stan. Watch it ;')
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I happen to agree that global warming is a serious man-made threat, but the conservative side needs to understand that opposing the issue of the environment, regardless of the truth, is a lost cause. Every time there is a little warmer weather, or a little stronger hurricane, more people will join the lefty cause out of fear (and lets face it, this is leftist fear mongering for political gain, just as terrorism is republican fear mongering for political gain). Just as with race, if the conservatives don't begin offering conservative solutions to the problem, all the solutions are going to be Marxist, and take us further down the road to the totalitarian Marxist state people on the left want so badly. "You get that which you tolerate"
There's just no happy middle ground for you, ha?
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I wonder what type of pirate is being counted? Certainly there are more than 17 software pirates in existence. :) Good poke at co-relation and causation, though. :) Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] When no one was looking, every single American woman between the ages of 18 and 32 went out and got a tatoo just above their rumpus. [link[^]]
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Stan Shannon wrote:
the biosphere absorbs it
By what process? There is absoloutely no link betwen global temperature and mankinds actions. Can the world temperature vary widely without any input from man (before man was industrialised)? Yes. So, the inverse question, can mankind now that he is industrialised, have an effect on global temperatures? Yes. Put it together, is the effect of mankind dwarfed into insignificance by the massive changes the earth is capable of on its own? Yes. Nunc est bibendum
fat_boy wrote:
By what process?
6H2O + 6CO2 ----------> C6H12O6+ 6O2 photosynthsis Since you are probably chemistry challenged :) this means six molecules of water plus six molecules of carbon dioxide produce one molecule of sugar plus six molecules of oxygen. We need to preserve our greens. Richard Suppose you were an idiot... And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeat myself. --Mark Twain
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I happen to agree that global warming is a serious man-made threat, but the conservative side needs to understand that opposing the issue of the environment, regardless of the truth, is a lost cause. Every time there is a little warmer weather, or a little stronger hurricane, more people will join the lefty cause out of fear (and lets face it, this is leftist fear mongering for political gain, just as terrorism is republican fear mongering for political gain). Just as with race, if the conservatives don't begin offering conservative solutions to the problem, all the solutions are going to be Marxist, and take us further down the road to the totalitarian Marxist state people on the left want so badly. "You get that which you tolerate"
Gave you a 1 on that, Stan. You were actually making a sane, persuasive argument in the first paragraph, but then your meds must have worn off, because the second paragraph sounds like it was written by a looney.
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OK, here is my take on global warming. I dont know anything about the science, or the computer models, or so on but; A volcano spews out a hell of a lot of CO2, dust, SO2 and god knows what else. Volcanos happen every 5 years or so, so it is complete crap to talk about nature being non poluting. It was also a lot warmer before 1500 or so. Viking settlements in Greenland, Romans growing grapes in the north of England, all attest to that. The world, if we are to believe the scientists, millions of years ago, was a festering, methane and CO2 swamp, with volcanos erruoting and so on. ie, uninhabitable. And it stabilised. To what we have today. The system balanced itself. So tell me, can the human race really throw such a stable system off course? A system that can and has coped with such extreme conditions? I think not. And I think the temperature rise we are seeing is perfectly normal, and only taking us back to where we were in the time of the Romans. Nunc est bibendum
fat_boy wrote:
A volcano spews out a hell of a lot of CO2, dust, SO2 and god knows what else
A post a couple of days ago pointed out that man-made CO2 emissions are 150 times greater than volcanic emissions. Look it up for yourself. This psuedo-argument that volcanos cause more global warming than humans must be put to bed once and for all. It is not true.
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I dont know the figures for volcano vs human being, anyone out there got any? Re the viking settlements in greenland. They were there, but it got just too cold in the 15th century for them to survice. And the Romand were growing grapes in the north of England.
ihoecken wrote:
I think that is not true at all. The medium temperatur of the earth was less at that time. Global warming doesn't mean that temperatur is getting hotter in england, in fact it cause a temperatur reduction there (like in Germany) because of the decrease / loss of gulfstream.
So you are stating that the reason we cant grow grapes in the north of england is because of the gulf stream being deflected? But the temperasture fell in the 15th century! That is when the Viking colonies failed! Long before any supposed impact mankind could have had.
ihoecken wrote:
Of course. Human can
Why? Why 'of course'. You take it as a matter of fact that we can. Where is your proof? Nunc est bibendum
fat_boy wrote:
Re the viking settlements in greenland. They were there, but it got just too cold in the 15th century for them to survice. And the Romand were growing grapes in the north of England.
The cooling period that drove the Vikings from Greenland was "The Little Ice Age". And unusually cool period probably caused by reduced solar activity. To make it worse, it followed an unusually warm period. The Little Ice Age didn't end until the mid 19th century. The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance.
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fat_boy wrote:
This is still just theory and here you are stating confidently that europe will get colder because of global warming!
I don't think that's disputed. That fact is that it could - all it would take would be for the gulf stream to stop (or reverse, which would be even worse I'd expect). Climate is a chaotic syustem, and therefore by its very nature exceptionally hard to model. Given that and the vested interests on all sides it should be no surprise that there is no general agreement on what is (or is not) happening and why (or why not). What I do know is that chaotic systems can change without warning given a nudge which appears insignificant. Given that, I personally believe it's in our interest to ensure we disturb the environment as little as humanely possible. That's plainly not the case right now - quite frankly we are a bunch of irresponsible little brats when it comes to the integrity of our environment. Earth is, after all, the only planet we inhabit at the moment. If we screw it up right now we as a species won't get a second chance. :rose: Anna :rose: Currently working mostly on: Visual Lint :cool: Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "Be yourself - not what others think you should be" - Marcia Graesch "Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart" - A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work.
One thing that bothers me quite a lot is that politicians ignore a very simple truth. Regardless whether the earth is warming up or not, we let toxic stuff into nature. That stuff will eventually find its way into ourselves. There should be some kind of pressure on corporations to make them spend parts of their profit to research cleaner and safer options. If we don't die drowning in molten polar ice, we'll die in our own filth. :sigh:
-- 100% natural. No superstitious additives.
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fat_boy wrote:
By what process?
6H2O + 6CO2 ----------> C6H12O6+ 6O2 photosynthsis Since you are probably chemistry challenged :) this means six molecules of water plus six molecules of carbon dioxide produce one molecule of sugar plus six molecules of oxygen. We need to preserve our greens. Richard Suppose you were an idiot... And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeat myself. --Mark Twain
Richard Stringer wrote:
We need to preserve our greens.
Tell that to the meat industry in Brazil. :sigh:
-- 100% natural. No superstitious additives.
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One thing that bothers me quite a lot is that politicians ignore a very simple truth. Regardless whether the earth is warming up or not, we let toxic stuff into nature. That stuff will eventually find its way into ourselves. There should be some kind of pressure on corporations to make them spend parts of their profit to research cleaner and safer options. If we don't die drowning in molten polar ice, we'll die in our own filth. :sigh:
-- 100% natural. No superstitious additives.
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I dont have a problem with what you are saying there! Quite agree, all the pesticides, dioxins, heavy metals etc are really screwing up nature, and will, one day, screw us up more than a few billion tons of CO2. Nunc est bibendum
fat_boy wrote:
screw us up more than a few billion tons of CO2
That remains to be seen I think. Ultimately, we need a what-if-machine. :rolleyes:
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There's just no happy middle ground for you, ha?
Middle ground is a Marxist concept!
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fat_boy wrote:
By what process?
6H2O + 6CO2 ----------> C6H12O6+ 6O2 photosynthsis Since you are probably chemistry challenged :) this means six molecules of water plus six molecules of carbon dioxide produce one molecule of sugar plus six molecules of oxygen. We need to preserve our greens. Richard Suppose you were an idiot... And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeat myself. --Mark Twain
Ah, OK, it was the term 'biosphere', I havent heard of it used to mean just plain old green plants. However, excess CO2 can be absorbed very very quickly resulting in increased plany growth. If anyone doubts me then I have absoloute proof: A friend of mine grew some big bud in his spare room using hydroponics. He used a CO2 bottle to increase the CO" in their 'biosphere' to increase the growth of the plants. Nunc est bibendum
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fat_boy wrote:
I dont know anything about the science, or the computer models, or so on but [here is my opinion anyway, using "facts" and arguments that are basically drawn straight from my own head and out of thin air despite the presence of at least one good source in this thread alone, because for some strange reason in our society scientific illiteracy is nothing to be ashamed of when making an argument on a scientific matter - and hey, if I'm wrong, someone who knows better can just come along and correct me, right? Saving me from actually actively seeking out information on the subject! Hooray!];
I mean, can you actually see yourself saying something like, "I don't know anything about electricity, but this is why there's no problem with the wiring in your house..." - F
Would you expect me to comment on the accuracy of the computer models given that I have no knowledge of them at all? I am just drawing a conclusion based on known facts; that the earth was a lot warmer when the romans were in britain and when the viking colonies in greenland were viable. And that there was also an iceage that ended 10 thousand years ago. ie, that the earth is capable of large changes on its own. All of which happened without mans intervention. Do you have such a reverence for 'scientists' that you do not dispute everything they say? Do you not have a brain of your own that you use to make up you own mind or do you always do what your 'betters' tell you? You are a bit weak in the head if you do. Nunc est bibendum
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fat_boy wrote:
olcanos happen every 5 years or so, so it is complete crap to talk about nature being non poluting.
No one has said that.
fat_boy wrote:
It was also a lot warmer before 1500 or so. Viking settlements in Greenland, Romans growing grapes in the north of England, all attest to that.
Of course. Everybody understands that the climate changes naturally over time.
fat_boy wrote:
The world, if we are to believe the scientists, millions of years ago, was a festering, methane and CO2 swamp, with volcanos erruoting and so on. ie, uninhabitable.
That's baloney. Life has been on the planet for about 1/2 billion years, not a few million.
fat_boy wrote:
And it stabilised. To what we have today. The system balanced itself.
No, it's not stable; it's dynamic. Our global climate system is in a state that sientis refer to as "chaordic" - that is, right on the edge of order and chaos. (This is sometimes refered to as a "metastable" state.) A "stable" system is one in which all the water is either frozen or liquid (for example) - we don't want that.
fat_boy wrote:
I dont know anything about the science, or the computer models, or so on but;
Umm - perhaps you should educate yourself, then, rather than spouting opinions based on ignorance.
Jim A. Johnson wrote:
fat_boy wrote: The world, if we are to believe the scientists, millions of years ago, was a festering, methane and CO2 swamp, with volcanos erruoting and so on. ie, uninhabitable. That's baloney. Life has been on the planet for about 1/2 billion years, not a few million.
Err, I stated 'millions of years ago' ie, plural, many. I didnt state how many, so 500 thousand million is still millions. Idiot.
Jim A. Johnson wrote:
"chaordic"
Yep, you have to be american to use a word like that. Tell me, is this the latest tredny word in weather science?
Jim A. Johnson wrote:
Umm - perhaps you should educate yourself, then, rather than spouting opinions based on ignorance
So you either: 1) KNow all about the science and models. 2) Dont know about them either, but dont have enough of a brain to form an opinion based on what you do know. 3) Are just an arse hole. Go on, let us know which one. Nunc est bibendum
