Anti-Americanism 'feels like racism'
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Espeir, The reason I posted that question was ... Britain is arguably Americas best ally, and this lady is receiving this kind of abuse from a friendly nation, something must be really wrong. I would expect unfriendliness from a country who despise everything that America stands for, but that should not be experienced by anybody living or visiting the UK. What should America do to improve its image.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
I would expect unfriendliness from a country who despise everything that America stands for, but that should not be experienced by anybody living or visiting the UK.
But your very question implies arrogance on your part. Did you ever stop to think that there might be something wrong with Britain. Maybe they are the ones who need to be introspective and change. Is it really all that important that there are members of US society who have not yet signed on to western civilizations suicide pact with itself? "You have no concept of the depth and complexity of my beliefs." Jim A. Johnson
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I suspect Stan doesn't give a rat's ass... How about it Stan? :)
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
How about it Stan?
You know me - sensitivity is my middle name! :laugh: "You have no concept of the depth and complexity of my beliefs." Jim A. Johnson -- modified at 9:56 Wednesday 19th July, 2006
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
I would expect unfriendliness from a country who despise everything that America stands for, but that should not be experienced by anybody living or visiting the UK.
But your very question implies arrogance on your part. Did you ever stop to think that there might be something wrong with Britain. Maybe they are the ones who need to be introspective and change. Is it really all that important that there are members of US society who have not yet signed on to western civilizations suicide pact with itself? "You have no concept of the depth and complexity of my beliefs." Jim A. Johnson
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Do I take your comments to my question "What should America do to improve its image." as either 1. You don't give a damn about what others think/feel/do 2. You are happy with your country's image 3. You don't have a view
You're limiting my possible responses, but closest to 1. One should not have to compromise his beliefs or position just because somebody else doesn't like it. It's not that I'm completely apathetic to the fact that the left is in disagreement (and acts completely inappropriately about it). It's that I don't intend to bend to their wishes because they call me names. I'm not 8 years old. But let's turn the table for a moment. What should liberals do to improve their image with conservatives? Europe isn't looking so good right now to us. Have you given any thought to that?
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I don't think this is a one-way solution. Europeans are highly critical of everything North American. This needs to stop. America is not Europe and Europe is not America. Something as simple as that should be so obvious but it, apparently, is not. One source of the confusion is the media. A quick scan through the BBC and CNN websites should suffice to illustrate what I mean. Unfortunately, most people take their information about a place from such secondhand sources like the media rather than visiting them firsthand. Consequently, impressions of America are biased by the source. This is particularly the case in Switzerland. In France, however, it is different. France is socialist, America is not. That is the difference in that case. The key problem is that Europeans have little first-hand experience of North American society - i.e. they have not lived there, they have not lived amongst the people, they have not "experienced" North America. 2-3 week vacations do not count as "cultural immersion". The reverse is true as well. So, two things: 1./ the onus is not solely on America doing something about it's image. That is only 1/2 of the problem. 2./ The other 1/2 of the problem is Europe doing something about their misconceptions of North America. I think both North Americans and Europeans need to engage each other absent the political situation. Both sides need to ignore the negative and biased media accounts, explore the positive accounts, and focus on the fact that at the most basic level everyone is human and each can learn a little something from the culture of the other. The last generation do have such close contact between the two societies was the Second World War Generation, but now the participants of that conflict are aging and decreasing in number. The younger generations are quite separated in comparison. People need to interact on a personal level rather than through the media. I think we need to get to know one another.
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You're limiting my possible responses, but closest to 1. One should not have to compromise his beliefs or position just because somebody else doesn't like it. It's not that I'm completely apathetic to the fact that the left is in disagreement (and acts completely inappropriately about it). It's that I don't intend to bend to their wishes because they call me names. I'm not 8 years old. But let's turn the table for a moment. What should liberals do to improve their image with conservatives? Europe isn't looking so good right now to us. Have you given any thought to that?
Sorry, I grant to rights to extend options by including your own.
espeir wrote:
Europe isn't looking so good right now to us. Have you given any thought to that
I will have views when you tell me what you consider Europe's failings are. But please don't presume that UK is Europe, or Germany is Europe etc as we are all independant nations, so what you consider as relevant to, say, France is not necessarily relevant elsewhere in Europe.
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Sorry, I grant to rights to extend options by including your own.
espeir wrote:
Europe isn't looking so good right now to us. Have you given any thought to that
I will have views when you tell me what you consider Europe's failings are. But please don't presume that UK is Europe, or Germany is Europe etc as we are all independant nations, so what you consider as relevant to, say, France is not necessarily relevant elsewhere in Europe.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
I will have views when you tell me what you consider Europe's failings are. But please don't presume that UK is Europe, or Germany is Europe etc as we are all independant nations, so what you consider as relevant to, say, France is not necessarily relevant elsewhere in Europe.
When I say Europe, I generally mean to exclude the UK because I don't have anything particularly against the UK. I'm against the hyper-secular, socialist regimes of the European mainland. There is a segment of society sympathetic with that mindset in both the US (see Vincent Reynolds as an example) and the UK as well, but our nations have not yet completely succumbed to that flawed way of thinking (the details of which can fill many books, so I will leave them out here). But I must add that by forming the European Union, Europe as fast becoming a conglomerate nation in my mind (and certainly others). You have sacrificed your national identities in favor of economic power. So just as you view the US as a single entity (even though the differences between Texas and California are just as significant as those between the UK and France), I'm am beginning to view Europe in the same way. So, in closing, it's the left that I oppose and the European mainland has chosen embrace that ideology. Being a mature adult, I feel no need to compromise my personal beliefs and ideology because the kid next door doesn't like me. Now why don't you explain why, being the kid next door who doesn't like me, you feel that I need to change in order to suit you.
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I don't think this is a one-way solution. Europeans are highly critical of everything North American. This needs to stop. America is not Europe and Europe is not America. Something as simple as that should be so obvious but it, apparently, is not. One source of the confusion is the media. A quick scan through the BBC and CNN websites should suffice to illustrate what I mean. Unfortunately, most people take their information about a place from such secondhand sources like the media rather than visiting them firsthand. Consequently, impressions of America are biased by the source. This is particularly the case in Switzerland. In France, however, it is different. France is socialist, America is not. That is the difference in that case. The key problem is that Europeans have little first-hand experience of North American society - i.e. they have not lived there, they have not lived amongst the people, they have not "experienced" North America. 2-3 week vacations do not count as "cultural immersion". The reverse is true as well. So, two things: 1./ the onus is not solely on America doing something about it's image. That is only 1/2 of the problem. 2./ The other 1/2 of the problem is Europe doing something about their misconceptions of North America. I think both North Americans and Europeans need to engage each other absent the political situation. Both sides need to ignore the negative and biased media accounts, explore the positive accounts, and focus on the fact that at the most basic level everyone is human and each can learn a little something from the culture of the other. The last generation do have such close contact between the two societies was the Second World War Generation, but now the participants of that conflict are aging and decreasing in number. The younger generations are quite separated in comparison. People need to interact on a personal level rather than through the media. I think we need to get to know one another.
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Espeir, The reason I posted that question was ... Britain is arguably Americas best ally, and this lady is receiving this kind of abuse from a friendly nation, something must be really wrong. I would expect unfriendliness from a country who despise everything that America stands for, but that should not be experienced by anybody living or visiting the UK. What should America do to improve its image.
No, Blair is Bush's best ally. Not the same thing which is where a lot of the resentment comes from. Improve it's image? Admit that is it an empire adn then they can deal with issues in a much mroe realistic way. An empire isn't intrinsically good or bad but needs managed peoperly. Elaine :rose: The tigress is here :-D
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No, Blair is Bush's best ally. Not the same thing which is where a lot of the resentment comes from. Improve it's image? Admit that is it an empire adn then they can deal with issues in a much mroe realistic way. An empire isn't intrinsically good or bad but needs managed peoperly. Elaine :rose: The tigress is here :-D
Trollslayer wrote:
Admit that is it an empire
I feel the need to be pedantic in that you should not confuse "empire" with "imperialism". By definition, the U.S. is not an empire. While they may exert influence on other nations, they do not exercise dominion over them. It is an important difference and delineates between empire and not empire. Having lived in many countries throughout the world, including the U.S. and much of Europe, I feel the need to state that it is not just the U.S. that needs to invest effort in it's image. Empires are bad in that they exert dominion over foreign cultures. This generally takes the form of oppression or suppression of the native culture in favour of the state that holds dominion over them.
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
I would expect unfriendliness from a country who despise everything that America stands for, but that should not be experienced by anybody living or visiting the UK.
But your very question implies arrogance on your part. Did you ever stop to think that there might be something wrong with Britain. Maybe they are the ones who need to be introspective and change. Is it really all that important that there are members of US society who have not yet signed on to western civilizations suicide pact with itself? "You have no concept of the depth and complexity of my beliefs." Jim A. Johnson
Stan Shannon wrote:
Did you ever stop to think that there might be something wrong with Britain.
There is nothing wrong with Britain! There is something seriously wrong with PEOPLE! There has been for thousands of years. By the time they are 10 years old they already know how hate other 10 year olds and behave like assholes. The only difference today is due to the advance in technology in the past few centuries we behave like assholes using new technology rather than spears and shields. At one time the universe was not a void but filled with oxygen, now oxygen only exists around the planet Earth because people suck so hard...... :-D
Last modified: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 10:27:55 AM -- typo
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Just observations I have made having lived extensively in both Europe and North America. I don't claim to have a definitive solution for everything! ;)
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
I will have views when you tell me what you consider Europe's failings are. But please don't presume that UK is Europe, or Germany is Europe etc as we are all independant nations, so what you consider as relevant to, say, France is not necessarily relevant elsewhere in Europe.
When I say Europe, I generally mean to exclude the UK because I don't have anything particularly against the UK. I'm against the hyper-secular, socialist regimes of the European mainland. There is a segment of society sympathetic with that mindset in both the US (see Vincent Reynolds as an example) and the UK as well, but our nations have not yet completely succumbed to that flawed way of thinking (the details of which can fill many books, so I will leave them out here). But I must add that by forming the European Union, Europe as fast becoming a conglomerate nation in my mind (and certainly others). You have sacrificed your national identities in favor of economic power. So just as you view the US as a single entity (even though the differences between Texas and California are just as significant as those between the UK and France), I'm am beginning to view Europe in the same way. So, in closing, it's the left that I oppose and the European mainland has chosen embrace that ideology. Being a mature adult, I feel no need to compromise my personal beliefs and ideology because the kid next door doesn't like me. Now why don't you explain why, being the kid next door who doesn't like me, you feel that I need to change in order to suit you.
Originally, Britain signed up to the European Economic Communitee. This was to be for trade between the individual nations that made up the EEC. But with that complications arose so many politician saw an opportunity for closer integration. There were (? still) fears in the UK that Europe is going down the federalists road. That road will be bumpy as all the EU nations are comming to it from a different standpoint. You will need to ask those living on the continent if a standardized currency (the Euro) is a benefit or a liability. In the UK there seems to continue to be little interest in joining a European Federal System. Regarding "the kid next door", personally, I don't particularly care if the kid next door does or doesn't like me as long as the kid next door doesn't start lobbing stones at my windows/house, then the kid next door will really understand the meaning of "my wrath".
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I have been living in Switzerland (for over three years now) and I'm Canadian and I feel it. I have also experienced it in France, the Czech Republic, Italy and Turkey. One exception was Greece. It's more along the lines of anti-North Americanism. Sometimes it is mild, sometimes quite severe. Speak North American English around anybody at your own risk. I get screamed at, eyes rolled at me, long stares, impatience and downright rudeness directed at me. I have even been called a "bloody capitalist" once. :rolleyes: The best is that usually within 10 seconds of initiating a conversation I get the inevitable: "So, where are you from?". I hate it. What should be done about it? Well, I think know that Europeans have large misconceptions regarding (North) American culture. Their source of what North America is all about comes from television and the news media which, generally, do not portray the U.S. in a positive light. Most reports are biased and critical of U.S. culture, society and politics. Consequently, they adopt this view of America via osmosis. Many of my European colleagues engage me in conversations that centre on what life is like in North America. My experience is that while they have many misconceptions of it, they are interested in what it is "really like". In my opinion, the North American governments need to promote an accurate, unbiased image of what North American society is and Europeans need to stop being so critical of North America. -- modified at 8:53 Wednesday 19th July, 2006 And that crap about "Tell people you're Canadian" is total rubbish. I get just as much flack as the author of that article does. I can sympathize with her experiences.
We'll see what Europeans are saying in 30 years when they are overrun by muslim fanatics.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
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I don't think this is a one-way solution. Europeans are highly critical of everything North American. This needs to stop. America is not Europe and Europe is not America. Something as simple as that should be so obvious but it, apparently, is not. One source of the confusion is the media. A quick scan through the BBC and CNN websites should suffice to illustrate what I mean. Unfortunately, most people take their information about a place from such secondhand sources like the media rather than visiting them firsthand. Consequently, impressions of America are biased by the source. This is particularly the case in Switzerland. In France, however, it is different. France is socialist, America is not. That is the difference in that case. The key problem is that Europeans have little first-hand experience of North American society - i.e. they have not lived there, they have not lived amongst the people, they have not "experienced" North America. 2-3 week vacations do not count as "cultural immersion". The reverse is true as well. So, two things: 1./ the onus is not solely on America doing something about it's image. That is only 1/2 of the problem. 2./ The other 1/2 of the problem is Europe doing something about their misconceptions of North America. I think both North Americans and Europeans need to engage each other absent the political situation. Both sides need to ignore the negative and biased media accounts, explore the positive accounts, and focus on the fact that at the most basic level everyone is human and each can learn a little something from the culture of the other. The last generation do have such close contact between the two societies was the Second World War Generation, but now the participants of that conflict are aging and decreasing in number. The younger generations are quite separated in comparison. People need to interact on a personal level rather than through the media. I think we need to get to know one another.
thealj wrote:
I think we need to get to know one another.
Isn't that what the internet was supposed to do - Bring us closer together? It ain't workin'.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
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You don't have to leave America for anti-Americanism! Just come to the Soapbox!
espeir wrote:
You don't have to leave America for anti-Americanism! Just come to the Soapbox!
I'm sorry that you think so. Perhaps you can find here some anti-Americanism, but the most are not anti-American. But when you just see those who don't like you, then it's not astonishing that you feel hatred. I don't like your president and I will always tell you so, but I'm not anti-American - the opposite is the truth. Regards, Ingo ------------------------------ PROST Roleplaying Game War doesn't determine who's right. War determines who's left.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Did you ever stop to think that there might be something wrong with Britain.
There is nothing wrong with Britain! There is something seriously wrong with PEOPLE! There has been for thousands of years. By the time they are 10 years old they already know how hate other 10 year olds and behave like assholes. The only difference today is due to the advance in technology in the past few centuries we behave like assholes using new technology rather than spears and shields. At one time the universe was not a void but filled with oxygen, now oxygen only exists around the planet Earth because people suck so hard...... :-D
Last modified: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 10:27:55 AM -- typo
led mike wrote:
By the time they are 10 years old they already know how hate other 10 year olds and behave like assholes
Surely as people become more educated and more older thus more world-wise don't you think people shug off this child-like attitude, or does it become more ingrained.
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Originally, Britain signed up to the European Economic Communitee. This was to be for trade between the individual nations that made up the EEC. But with that complications arose so many politician saw an opportunity for closer integration. There were (? still) fears in the UK that Europe is going down the federalists road. That road will be bumpy as all the EU nations are comming to it from a different standpoint. You will need to ask those living on the continent if a standardized currency (the Euro) is a benefit or a liability. In the UK there seems to continue to be little interest in joining a European Federal System. Regarding "the kid next door", personally, I don't particularly care if the kid next door does or doesn't like me as long as the kid next door doesn't start lobbing stones at my windows/house, then the kid next door will really understand the meaning of "my wrath".
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
In the UK there seems to continue to be little interest in joining a European Federal System.
That has been my understanding and what I would have expected out of the UK since there seems to be fairly significant cultural differences between you guys and the most of the rest of Europe. except for the fact that Europe is much older than the US, I see some similarities between the formation of the United States and the EU. It took 11 years before the 13 original colonies agreed upon a constitution granting stronger federal powers than any of them would have liked and it began much like the EU is now...Basically a loose coalition/confederacy of individual states united on mostly an economic front, but otherwise culturally very different. The need for a stronger federal government (the phase I see Europe in) led to the Continental Congress and eventually a stronger federal power. Of course that power strengthened over time from a veritable figure-head government to a very powerful one. Europe isn't there yet, but I definately see some similarities and expect the EU to eventually succumb to a federalist system. Given the stark differences Europe has had in the past...I also expect such a system to lead to another world war, but that's pretty far down the road.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Regarding "the kid next door", personally, I don't particularly care if the kid next door does or doesn't like me as long as the kid next door doesn't start lobbing stones at my windows/house, then the kid next door will really understand the meaning of "my wrath".
Last I checked, the US wasn't lobbing stones at the UK or leftists. We caught our other neighbors (in the Middle East) peeing on our Porsche, so we're beating the crap out of them.
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Do other Americans in other Countries have similar experiences?
My son just returned from a two week tour of Europe and England, he reported no abuse of any kind, but was traveling with a large group of other Americans, so didn't have the chance to interact with any of the locals on a one-on-one basis.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
And what should American Policymakers do about it?
I don't know. More bombs? "You have no concept of the depth and complexity of my beliefs." Jim A. Johnson
Stan Shannon wrote:
I don't know. More bombs?
Well I think you did your best trying to concoct a solution. ------------------------------ PROST Roleplaying Game War doesn't determine who's right. War determines who's left.
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led mike wrote:
By the time they are 10 years old they already know how hate other 10 year olds and behave like assholes
Surely as people become more educated and more older thus more world-wise don't you think people shug off this child-like attitude, or does it become more ingrained.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
don't you think people shug off this child-like attitude, or does it become more ingrained.
Relatively few actually shed their human nature. Most use their education and experience to hone their base human nature as though it was a "skill". I know... real downer eh? That's why we need things like "don't worry... be happy" :-D
