Anti-Americanism 'feels like racism'
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Originally, Britain signed up to the European Economic Communitee. This was to be for trade between the individual nations that made up the EEC. But with that complications arose so many politician saw an opportunity for closer integration. There were (? still) fears in the UK that Europe is going down the federalists road. That road will be bumpy as all the EU nations are comming to it from a different standpoint. You will need to ask those living on the continent if a standardized currency (the Euro) is a benefit or a liability. In the UK there seems to continue to be little interest in joining a European Federal System. Regarding "the kid next door", personally, I don't particularly care if the kid next door does or doesn't like me as long as the kid next door doesn't start lobbing stones at my windows/house, then the kid next door will really understand the meaning of "my wrath".
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
In the UK there seems to continue to be little interest in joining a European Federal System.
That has been my understanding and what I would have expected out of the UK since there seems to be fairly significant cultural differences between you guys and the most of the rest of Europe. except for the fact that Europe is much older than the US, I see some similarities between the formation of the United States and the EU. It took 11 years before the 13 original colonies agreed upon a constitution granting stronger federal powers than any of them would have liked and it began much like the EU is now...Basically a loose coalition/confederacy of individual states united on mostly an economic front, but otherwise culturally very different. The need for a stronger federal government (the phase I see Europe in) led to the Continental Congress and eventually a stronger federal power. Of course that power strengthened over time from a veritable figure-head government to a very powerful one. Europe isn't there yet, but I definately see some similarities and expect the EU to eventually succumb to a federalist system. Given the stark differences Europe has had in the past...I also expect such a system to lead to another world war, but that's pretty far down the road.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Regarding "the kid next door", personally, I don't particularly care if the kid next door does or doesn't like me as long as the kid next door doesn't start lobbing stones at my windows/house, then the kid next door will really understand the meaning of "my wrath".
Last I checked, the US wasn't lobbing stones at the UK or leftists. We caught our other neighbors (in the Middle East) peeing on our Porsche, so we're beating the crap out of them.
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Do other Americans in other Countries have similar experiences?
My son just returned from a two week tour of Europe and England, he reported no abuse of any kind, but was traveling with a large group of other Americans, so didn't have the chance to interact with any of the locals on a one-on-one basis.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
And what should American Policymakers do about it?
I don't know. More bombs? "You have no concept of the depth and complexity of my beliefs." Jim A. Johnson
Stan Shannon wrote:
I don't know. More bombs?
Well I think you did your best trying to concoct a solution. ------------------------------ PROST Roleplaying Game War doesn't determine who's right. War determines who's left.
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led mike wrote:
By the time they are 10 years old they already know how hate other 10 year olds and behave like assholes
Surely as people become more educated and more older thus more world-wise don't you think people shug off this child-like attitude, or does it become more ingrained.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
don't you think people shug off this child-like attitude, or does it become more ingrained.
Relatively few actually shed their human nature. Most use their education and experience to hone their base human nature as though it was a "skill". I know... real downer eh? That's why we need things like "don't worry... be happy" :-D
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We'll see what Europeans are saying in 30 years when they are overrun by muslim fanatics.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blogJason Henderson wrote:
We'll see what Europeans are saying in 30 years when they are overrun by muslim fanatics.
Well let's take a look into the future: Look at the infidel Americans - what should European Policymakers do about them? I don't know. More bombs? ------------------------------ PROST Roleplaying Game War doesn't determine who's right. War determines who's left.
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
In the UK there seems to continue to be little interest in joining a European Federal System.
That has been my understanding and what I would have expected out of the UK since there seems to be fairly significant cultural differences between you guys and the most of the rest of Europe. except for the fact that Europe is much older than the US, I see some similarities between the formation of the United States and the EU. It took 11 years before the 13 original colonies agreed upon a constitution granting stronger federal powers than any of them would have liked and it began much like the EU is now...Basically a loose coalition/confederacy of individual states united on mostly an economic front, but otherwise culturally very different. The need for a stronger federal government (the phase I see Europe in) led to the Continental Congress and eventually a stronger federal power. Of course that power strengthened over time from a veritable figure-head government to a very powerful one. Europe isn't there yet, but I definately see some similarities and expect the EU to eventually succumb to a federalist system. Given the stark differences Europe has had in the past...I also expect such a system to lead to another world war, but that's pretty far down the road.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Regarding "the kid next door", personally, I don't particularly care if the kid next door does or doesn't like me as long as the kid next door doesn't start lobbing stones at my windows/house, then the kid next door will really understand the meaning of "my wrath".
Last I checked, the US wasn't lobbing stones at the UK or leftists. We caught our other neighbors (in the Middle East) peeing on our Porsche, so we're beating the crap out of them.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4881474.stm[^] A US citizen living in London, wrote to the BBC news website to express her concern about the amount of abuse she receives because of her nationality. Do other Americans in other Countries have similar experiences? And what should American Policymakers do about it?
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
And what should American Policymakers do about it?
Nothing! It is not and should not be thier concern that a bunch of drunks act rudely. I also suggest Ms. Coxs stop trolling the lower end of the pub line...
"The key, the whole key, and nothing but the key, so help me Codd"
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Espeir, The reason I posted that question was ... Britain is arguably Americas best ally, and this lady is receiving this kind of abuse from a friendly nation, something must be really wrong. I would expect unfriendliness from a country who despise everything that America stands for, but that should not be experienced by anybody living or visiting the UK. What should America do to improve its image.
Rool over and play dead? No, there's not much you can do. I know speak strictly for some of the anti-american feelings in Sweden and even then not for the muslims. Most journalists in Sweden are left-wing and have mostly been nice messangers for the Sovjets. So most of us have been told that americans are so and so. Many of these people are still in position of power but it has eased up. Perestrojka did open quite a few eyes but there's still a high voiced minority that blames US for everything bad -- even says that the 9/11 was their fault. I shamed to admit it but they do exist. Most of us have gotten their picture of US from the movies and the telly. Sweden is blamed with being "americanized" and I think that's true. But still, we do have that high voiced little group of people -- oldsters and quite a few youngsters... But, there's one thing, on a personal level. And I think that is what turns on most non-americans... You have an attitude... Admit it:) And that might rubb some noses, especially if they already knows their own failures. It's much easier to be angry on the messanger, especially if he/she have an attitude, then facing one owns failures... If there's a difference between US and the rest of the world, it propably are this national self-assurance, this "can do". As I've understand it, you're taught already from early ages to belive in yourself. In Sweden we were/are taught to fit in... and those of us who do not fit in will have a hard time being hamered into the square hole. Finally, there are stupids out there but most of us treats you as a human being and when we hear that you're an amercian:) We're intrigued and have finally the chance of asking all those questions that the movies and tv-shows caused us:-D ps. I was over in US some years ago... I walked those streets:) But for some reason I only spent time with europeans and canadians out side of work hours...
I have no problem with my hubris
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I have been living in Switzerland (for over three years now) and I'm Canadian and I feel it. I have also experienced it in France, the Czech Republic, Italy and Turkey. One exception was Greece. It's more along the lines of anti-North Americanism. Sometimes it is mild, sometimes quite severe. Speak North American English around anybody at your own risk. I get screamed at, eyes rolled at me, long stares, impatience and downright rudeness directed at me. I have even been called a "bloody capitalist" once. :rolleyes: The best is that usually within 10 seconds of initiating a conversation I get the inevitable: "So, where are you from?". I hate it. What should be done about it? Well, I think know that Europeans have large misconceptions regarding (North) American culture. Their source of what North America is all about comes from television and the news media which, generally, do not portray the U.S. in a positive light. Most reports are biased and critical of U.S. culture, society and politics. Consequently, they adopt this view of America via osmosis. Many of my European colleagues engage me in conversations that centre on what life is like in North America. My experience is that while they have many misconceptions of it, they are interested in what it is "really like". In my opinion, the North American governments need to promote an accurate, unbiased image of what North American society is and Europeans need to stop being so critical of North America. -- modified at 8:53 Wednesday 19th July, 2006 And that crap about "Tell people you're Canadian" is total rubbish. I get just as much flack as the author of that article does. I can sympathize with her experiences.
thealj wrote:
In my opinion, the North American governments need to promote an accurate, unbiased image of what North American society is
They already do. It's reporters with a bias that don't. Jeremy Falcon
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Jason Henderson wrote:
We'll see what Europeans are saying in 30 years when they are overrun by muslim fanatics.
Well let's take a look into the future: Look at the infidel Americans - what should European Policymakers do about them? I don't know. More bombs? ------------------------------ PROST Roleplaying Game War doesn't determine who's right. War determines who's left.
That's exactly what I expect to happen when Europe is majority Islam.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
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Do I take your comments to my question "What should America do to improve its image." as either 1. You don't give a damn about what others think/feel/do 2. You are happy with your country's image 3. You don't have a view
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
What should America do to improve its image.
Nothing. We're doing a good job of it already. (Don't turn this into an Iraq thing). If Europeans have the problem, it's just that - their problem. And they need to fix it. While I can't speak for the whole country, I can say that around here Europeans do not get treated like garbage (at least from what I've seen). We're better than that. And yes David Wulff (he'll be reading this I bet), I know stupid people exist everywhere. And I'm sure, some people had horrible experiences over here as well. But, I'm whining, so there. :laugh: Jeremy Falcon
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Educate me on what you consider wrong with Britain (and don't hold any punches now! we Brits I really want to know your views)
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Educate me on what you consider wrong with Britain
For one, you're defending racism on the basis of nationality. And before you deny it (I'm sure you will). You are defending it by refusing to believe there's no problem with it on your end. And stop blaming other people, there's too much of that crap today already. If Britian's treat Americans like garbage, your first question should be what's wrong with the Britains that are doing that. Jeremy Falcon
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It doesn't suprise me in the least, given conversations I have overheard and taken part in. Knee Jerk lefties blame America for pretty much everything. The fact that your president if percived as an incoherant retard really doesn't help either. Personaly I can't blame you too much for voting him in though, given the competition. Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Personaly I can't blame you too much for voting him in though, given the competition.
That was my take on it. It was a competition between dumb and dumber. Jeremy Falcon
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4881474.stm[^] A US citizen living in London, wrote to the BBC news website to express her concern about the amount of abuse she receives because of her nationality. Do other Americans in other Countries have similar experiences? And what should American Policymakers do about it?
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
And what should American Policymakers do about it?
Nothing Policymakers can do would change this - Americans (and perhaps Canadians) should file lawsuits against the European press for collective slander and hate speach. Maybe that would change things...
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This is complete bullsh1t. No one I know or work with has or openly airs anti-American sentiment; quite the reverse, usually. They may not like President Bush and his administration or what he/they represent through their policies but they are smart enough not to confuse Bush with every other American. Besides, having lived in the States and with many American friends (and family) I can quite happily say that ordinary Americans are exactly the same as everyone else: they have the same basic needs and do the same basic things. They have families, work, pay bills and worry about crime and schools and medicine, etc, etc. The only difference is the cultural backdrop in which these activities take place. Footnote: the only people I have met that didn't like Yanks turned out never to have actually met or talked with one: they based their bias on what they saw and heard in the media. Shame. home
bookmarks You can ignore relatives but the neighbours live next doordigital man wrote:
No one I know or work with has or openly airs anti-American sentiment; quite the reverse, usually. They may not like President Bush and his administration or what he/they represent through their policies but they are smart enough not to confuse Bush with every other American.
I never once seen a French guy over here treated badly for their nationality. But, I can't swear it never happened. The point is, the world is bigger than you think. :) Jeremy Falcon
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I don't think this is a one-way solution. Europeans are highly critical of everything North American. This needs to stop. America is not Europe and Europe is not America. Something as simple as that should be so obvious but it, apparently, is not. One source of the confusion is the media. A quick scan through the BBC and CNN websites should suffice to illustrate what I mean. Unfortunately, most people take their information about a place from such secondhand sources like the media rather than visiting them firsthand. Consequently, impressions of America are biased by the source. This is particularly the case in Switzerland. In France, however, it is different. France is socialist, America is not. That is the difference in that case. The key problem is that Europeans have little first-hand experience of North American society - i.e. they have not lived there, they have not lived amongst the people, they have not "experienced" North America. 2-3 week vacations do not count as "cultural immersion". The reverse is true as well. So, two things: 1./ the onus is not solely on America doing something about it's image. That is only 1/2 of the problem. 2./ The other 1/2 of the problem is Europe doing something about their misconceptions of North America. I think both North Americans and Europeans need to engage each other absent the political situation. Both sides need to ignore the negative and biased media accounts, explore the positive accounts, and focus on the fact that at the most basic level everyone is human and each can learn a little something from the culture of the other. The last generation do have such close contact between the two societies was the Second World War Generation, but now the participants of that conflict are aging and decreasing in number. The younger generations are quite separated in comparison. People need to interact on a personal level rather than through the media. I think we need to get to know one another.
thealj wrote:
The key problem is that Europeans have little first-hand experience of North American society - i.e. they have not lived there, they have not lived amongst the people, they have not "experienced" North America.
This is one reason why i used to love hearing Alistair Cooke's "Letter from America". The primary reason was that the man could tell a story, a skill lacking in so many commentators, foreign and domestic, that sadly doesn't prevent them trying anyway. But the other reason was that he told his stories, not from the perspective of the proud native Citizen, and not from the perspective of the aloof foreign Observer... but from the perspective of the interested Guest. He spoke, of our successes and failures as one might speak of a dear friend. We could use more of this.
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Americans receive just as much abuse from left-wing Americans. I do not believe that conservative Americans (presumably the ones hated by left-wing Europe) need to compromise our position because leftists disagree. They can disagree all they want, but they does not mean that we cannot disagree with them. Case in point: My wife's best friend's boyfriend is an American (barely) and a left-wing extremist. He told my wife's friend that my wife is a murderer because she drives an SUV. Do I feel compelled to be apologetic to somebody like that? Answer: No.
espeir wrote:
Americans receive just as much abuse from left-wing Americans
You mean right-wing Americans receive just as much abuse from left-wing Americans, of course. And there would be fewer complaints from the center if the right wing were actually conservative. Instead, they are only socially conservative -- anti-gay, anti-privacy. Fiscally, they are completely, off-the-charts liberal. Borrowing money for enormously expensive experiments in nation-building is not the least bit conservative.
espeir wrote:
He told my wife's friend that my wife is a murderer because she drives an SUV
You're wife's best friend didn't say that because he's a left-wing extremist. He said that because he's an idiot.
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espeir wrote:
Americans receive just as much abuse from left-wing Americans
You mean right-wing Americans receive just as much abuse from left-wing Americans, of course. And there would be fewer complaints from the center if the right wing were actually conservative. Instead, they are only socially conservative -- anti-gay, anti-privacy. Fiscally, they are completely, off-the-charts liberal. Borrowing money for enormously expensive experiments in nation-building is not the least bit conservative.
espeir wrote:
He told my wife's friend that my wife is a murderer because she drives an SUV
You're wife's best friend didn't say that because he's a left-wing extremist. He said that because he's an idiot.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
You're wife's best friend didn't say that because he's a left-wing extremist. He said that because he's an idiot.
What's the difference? "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
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I agree that I will never understand the madness of Islam.
espeir wrote for himself:
I agree that I will never understand the my own madness of Islam.
Oh Fisticuffs, I Need Your Approval For I Am Misguided Without Your Awesome Insight Please Validate My Existence With You're Internet Powers By Pumpkinhead, Age 15 or something
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espeir wrote for himself:
I agree that I will never understand the my own madness of Islam.
Oh Fisticuffs, I Need Your Approval For I Am Misguided Without Your Awesome Insight Please Validate My Existence With You're Internet Powers By Pumpkinhead, Age 15 or something
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That little crossout thing you do reminds me of how the Taliban blew up those big Buddha statues. "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
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Vincent Reynolds wrote:
You're wife's best friend didn't say that because he's a left-wing extremist. He said that because he's an idiot.
What's the difference? "Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
espeir wrote:
What's the difference?
Spoken like a true right-wing extremist.