A cartoon
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>>if for example you stood surrounded by your family and pointed a gun at me, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot no matter who was in the way. o'rly? What if someone stood surrounded with your children? would you still fire? if not, why are your children more worth than children in palestina? (that cant decide to leave even if Israel warns)
Dumb-diddly-um-dumb. Of course my kids are more important than someone elses.
Roger J wrote:
that cant decide to leave even if Israel warns
Complete, total and utter horsehit. They can leave if and when their hezzbollah loving parents decide to take them.
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>>if for example you stood surrounded by your family and pointed a gun at me, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot no matter who was in the way. o'rly? What if someone stood surrounded with your children? would you still fire? if not, why are your children more worth than children in palestina? (that cant decide to leave even if Israel warns)
Roger J wrote:
why are your children more worth than children in palestin
Er, because they would be mine. Same old story, the only people in the world who expected to actualy act like Christians are the Jews.
Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
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It just never comes across that way and I think you are being terribly naive if you believe that anyone who critices Israel is not also anti-Semtic. In my experience (and I've had a lot) I've never met an anti-Israeli who wasn't also an anti-Semite. And why the need to be 'anti-Israel? Why not support her as she fights to defend herself from terrorism? Or are you against the tenet of self-defence in the face of an enemy hell-bent on exterminating you?
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bookmarks You can ignore relatives but the neighbours live next doordigital man wrote:
It just never comes across that way and I think you are being terribly naive if you believe that anyone who critices Israel is not also anti-Semtic. In my experience (and I've had a lot) I've never met an anti-Israeli who wasn't also an anti-Semite.
And I've never met a white American who didn't support slavery.... hey - look absurd generalization can work both ways. (And no. I do not think all white americans support slavery, or even just a percentage of them do. I'm not as ignorant as the person I quoted) Learn more of people and the world before making absurd comments. You can easily dislike/be against some of a nations actions withouth being "anti-nation". Heck, I even think Israel is somewhat justified trying to hunt down Hezbolla when Lebanon can't themselves, however - I'm not stupid enough to think like you do.
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It just never comes across that way and I think you are being terribly naive if you believe that anyone who critices Israel is not also anti-Semtic. In my experience (and I've had a lot) I've never met an anti-Israeli who wasn't also an anti-Semite. And why the need to be 'anti-Israel? Why not support her as she fights to defend herself from terrorism? Or are you against the tenet of self-defence in the face of an enemy hell-bent on exterminating you?
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bookmarks You can ignore relatives but the neighbours live next doorThere is a world of difference between criticising Israel for being heavy-handed/disproportionate in its use of force and being an anti-Semite - and if people can't see that, then there is little point in trying to have a discussion at all. It reminds me of people who say that if you criticise Bush, then you are anti-American. Hell, I regualrly criticise Blair - does that make me an anti-British Brit? :)
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Presumably, if you cannot be moral them you must be immoral. Unless you think otherwise.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Presumably, if you cannot be moral them you must be immoral. Unless you think otherwise.
Moral relativism is inherently immoral. You're presenting both sides as morally valid based merely on yout viewpoint. I'm stating that in war you don't squabble over whether you're more or less moral than your enemy because they will kill you as you ponder. Everybody knows that war is fraught with immoral acts. However, sometimes it's necessary in order to preserve a moral way of life.
"Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
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I have no solution, Im just saying that what they do is _not_ the solution. Eg if you have prostate cancer, i can tell you not to use steroids because it will only get worse, still , I cant cure cancer.. its the same thing...
Roger J wrote:
what they do is _not_ the solution.
Tell that to Adolph Hitler.
Thank God for disproportional force.
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I have no solution, Im just saying that what they do is _not_ the solution. Eg if you have prostate cancer, i can tell you not to use steroids because it will only get worse, still , I cant cure cancer.. its the same thing...
So, the cowering then. Maybe we could ask them not to bang the oven doors too loudly too?
Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
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digital man wrote:
It just never comes across that way and I think you are being terribly naive if you believe that anyone who critices Israel is not also anti-Semtic. In my experience (and I've had a lot) I've never met an anti-Israeli who wasn't also an anti-Semite.
And I've never met a white American who didn't support slavery.... hey - look absurd generalization can work both ways. (And no. I do not think all white americans support slavery, or even just a percentage of them do. I'm not as ignorant as the person I quoted) Learn more of people and the world before making absurd comments. You can easily dislike/be against some of a nations actions withouth being "anti-nation". Heck, I even think Israel is somewhat justified trying to hunt down Hezbolla when Lebanon can't themselves, however - I'm not stupid enough to think like you do.
Not every anti zionist is an anti semite, but every anti semite is anti zionist.
Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
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Roger J wrote:
what they do is _not_ the solution.
Tell that to Adolph Hitler.
Thank God for disproportional force.
huh?
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Perhaps Hezbollah and Hamas look upon Israel and its supporters as vermin, which appears to be no change from Israel and its supports looking at Hezbollah and Hamas as vermin. Either they are both right, neither right, or one or other of them is right.
Aha, here lies the problem. I don't consider Israel 'they' I consider them 'we'. You would too, if you had any comprehension of the ideology of our enemies.
Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Presumably, if you cannot be moral them you must be immoral. Unless you think otherwise.
Moral relativism is inherently immoral. You're presenting both sides as morally valid based merely on yout viewpoint. I'm stating that in war you don't squabble over whether you're more or less moral than your enemy because they will kill you as you ponder. Everybody knows that war is fraught with immoral acts. However, sometimes it's necessary in order to preserve a moral way of life.
"Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
From your own viewpoint you are making a moral judgement on the morality of others. Which may be an immoral judgement from somebody elses viewpoint. But from an outsiders' viewpoint, whose viewpoint is right ?
espeir wrote:
I'm stating that in war you don't squabble over whether you're more or less moral than your enemy because they will kill you as you ponder. Everybody knows that war is fraught with immoral acts. However, sometimes it's necessary in order to preserve a moral way of life.
I understand fully your comments.
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So, the cowering then. Maybe we could ask them not to bang the oven doors too loudly too?
Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
Did I say that? I thought I said that I didnt have the solution. They could possibly invade by ground. Its better to snipe the terrorists than bomb civilians. It would probably cost a few more israeli soldiers, but by sparing as many civilians as possible they atleast show the world that they do the best they can. I _do_ think Israel should defend themselves, and I _dont_ think the war is wrong, I just think that Israel is not doing their best to spare the innocent.
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Aha, here lies the problem. I don't consider Israel 'they' I consider them 'we'. You would too, if you had any comprehension of the ideology of our enemies.
Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
By the same token, somebody from, for instance, Indonesia, might say "I don't consider Islam 'they' I consider them 'we'" And they might also say "You would too, if you had any comprehension of the ideology of our enemies" Strange how words can be easily manipulated.
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From your own viewpoint you are making a moral judgement on the morality of others. Which may be an immoral judgement from somebody elses viewpoint. But from an outsiders' viewpoint, whose viewpoint is right ?
espeir wrote:
I'm stating that in war you don't squabble over whether you're more or less moral than your enemy because they will kill you as you ponder. Everybody knows that war is fraught with immoral acts. However, sometimes it's necessary in order to preserve a moral way of life.
I understand fully your comments.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
From your own viewpoint you are making a moral judgement on the morality of others. Which may be an immoral judgement from somebody elses viewpoint. But from an outsiders' viewpoint, whose viewpoint is right ?
Clap....Clap....Clap. That's the whole basis of moral relativism...That there is no right, only our personal viewpoints of it. I'm telling you that there is right and there is wrong and our biases cause us to see situations incorrectly. However, I'm also saying that if you apply moral relativism in war, then you will quickly be naturally selected out of the population.
"Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
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It just goes to show how insidious the Soapbox is: I've now spent so much time on here today that I'll probably have to work late to catch up. And, therefore, please feel free to take that honour for yourself. I have just got to do some work! (Stoopid NHibernate/HQL).
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bookmarks You can ignore relatives but the neighbours live next door -
huh?
Bombing innocent civilians was certainly the solution when it came to getting him.
Thank God for disproportional force.
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viaduct wrote:
One can be strongly against the actions of the State of Israel without being anti-Israel, anti-Israeli or anti-Semitic.
that is pure crap. put as much energy into anti-Hizbolluh rhetoric and your opinion would have some validity.
Mike Dear NYT - the fact is, the founding fathers hung traitors. dennisd45 wrote: My view of the world is slightly more nuanced
I think you are missing the point. Israel is a country, we expect it to act according to human rights etc, and atleast try to minimize the civilian losses. we all know that Hizbolluh are terrorists and no one here expects them to try to act as good as possible. I think you, digital man , Stan & CO , fails to see this. Most of us do hate the terrorists and think they are fuckers. But since Israel is one of "us", we expect Istrael to behave a bit better. If some fuckhead punches my brother in his face, I dont expect him to go home to the fuckhead and kill his family.
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
From your own viewpoint you are making a moral judgement on the morality of others. Which may be an immoral judgement from somebody elses viewpoint. But from an outsiders' viewpoint, whose viewpoint is right ?
Clap....Clap....Clap. That's the whole basis of moral relativism...That there is no right, only our personal viewpoints of it. I'm telling you that there is right and there is wrong and our biases cause us to see situations incorrectly. However, I'm also saying that if you apply moral relativism in war, then you will quickly be naturally selected out of the population.
"Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
espeir wrote:
However, I'm also saying that if you apply moral relativism in war, then you will quickly be naturally selected out of the population
So Espeir, can I assume that, the bombing of Heifa and the bombing of Beirut, it is neither morally right nor morally wrong. The viewpoint is irrelevant.
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Once again the cry of Anti-Semitism goes up. One can be strongly against the actions of the State of Israel without being anti-Israel, anti-Israeli or anti-Semitic. Too often the accusation of anti-semitism has been used to shout down legitimate complaints about the actions of the State of Israel. The actions of the Nazis in WW2 was anti-semitic; suggesting that rocketing a clearly-marked ambulance is wrong, is definitely not. Israel as a whole needs to learn to understand that people can complain about its actions without being anti-semitic, and not to use people's post-Holocaust fear of being labelled "anti-semitic" as a shield.
Asynes yw brassa ages kwilkynyow.
viaduct wrote:
Once again the cry of Anti-Semitism goes up. One can be strongly against the actions of the State of Israel without being anti-Israel, anti-Israeli or anti-Semitic.
Of course you can. I know some Jews who are against the actions of Israel. I'm not against Israel and I understand their reaction, but I don't like the way they react and I know this way won't lead to peace. If they drop more bombs in the way they do, there will be more terrorists. Look at Rabin, he was on a point where it was almost peace. Some more years and the whole situation could have changed. But he was killed and while all the politician who came after him react in another way, more terrorists are activated. Regards, Ingo
------------------------------ PROST Roleplaying Game War doesn't determine who's right. War determines who's left.