A cartoon
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I forget the name of the bombing run, but I know what you're talking about. It was one specific bombing raid (using firebombs) that was supposed to have been done simply for retaliatory purposes and had no strategic value. Some leftist professor (is that redundant?) tried to convince me of that back in college, but after researching it on my own I found that the city housed numerous military factories.
"Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
You're probably talking about the bombing of Dresden. Yes there were nazis there. But I fail to see the point in more or less oblitterating the entire city for anything but revenge.
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>>If you are going to defeat the bad guys, you are going to have to go through the innocent civilians to get to them. I do not agree, it is not the same kind of beast they are fighting. Killing civilians in ww2 did not produce terrorists. Nor did germany have that many allies in the end to aid them. Palestina might possibly have the entire arab world on their side.
Roger J wrote:
Killing civilians in ww2 did not produce terrorists.
Yes it did. Bombing Germany increased their resolve, but screwed their military economy towards producing interceptors and AA guns. The Russians who invaded Berlin were killing 13 year old girls armed with panzerfausts.
Roger J wrote:
Nor did germany have that many allies in the end to aid them.
Other than hungary, slovakia, italy, japan, romania, austria, bulgaria etc, no.
Roger J wrote:
Palestina might possibly have the entire arab world on their side.
Not if we are clever and forment a Sunni/Shi'a war no.
Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
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It is the kind of propaganda that makes things even worse. Cut the bullshit and start thinking about the REAL cause of this. Or maybe your brain is surrounded by a bozone layer preventing logic from getting in.
-------- "I say no to drugs, but they don't listen." - Marilyn Manson
MP (2) wrote:
the REAL cause of this.
Whats that?
Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
Did it really have that much of an impact on the outcome?
That isn't the question. The question is, could we have won if we had been unwilling to kill innocent civilians to get to him. If we had said "can't do that!" He would have simply put all his resources behind lines of civilians and we would have been powerless to defeat him. By showing we would remorselessly slaughter innocents, we left him no place to hide. Was that an evil thing to do? Of course it was. But it is a perfect exmaple of two wrongs making a right. We won.
Thank God for disproportional force.
Stan Shannon wrote:
That isn't the question. The question is, could we have won if we had been unwilling to kill innocent civilians to get to him.
I think: yes, you could. You were already marching against the German troups, and Germany didn't had any resources left. Hitler didn't mind those bombing. But even though I think that it wasn't really right, I won't blame you for that. On the other hand I'm not a strategist, so perhaps war would have last two or three weeks longer... Regards, Ingo
------------------------------ PROST Roleplaying Game War doesn't determine who's right. War determines who's left.
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I forget the name of the bombing run, but I know what you're talking about. It was one specific bombing raid (using firebombs) that was supposed to have been done simply for retaliatory purposes and had no strategic value. Some leftist professor (is that redundant?) tried to convince me of that back in college, but after researching it on my own I found that the city housed numerous military factories.
"Everything I listed is intended to eliminate the tyranny of the majority." -Vincent Reynolds on American Democracy
espeir wrote:
I forget the name of the bombing run
In Germany it has been called "Feuersturm" translated it would have been named "Firestorm". Regards, Ingo
------------------------------ PROST Roleplaying Game War doesn't determine who's right. War determines who's left.
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I am trying to play the part of Devil's Advocate [^] Partly to show how stupid and dangerous the situation is becomming.
I know. I was just quoting someone else humorly and forgot to add the smiley face. But sadly, the quote rings to for those who claim that force is the way to peace, and leave no room for those wanting to be left in peace. Oh well, gotta go download some stuff and add it to My Privates Folder. :-D
There are II kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who understand Roman numerals. Web - Blog - RSS - Math
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ihoecken wrote:
Look at Rabin, he was on a point where it was almost peace.
Arafat takes most of the blame for that - he was lying through his teeth. http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=3&x_outlet=17&x_article=175[^]
Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
I don't doubt it one bit, and I doubt anyone else on this thread (Adnan aside, but what do you expect?) would disagree either. Arafat was no Mandela, that's for sure.
Anna :rose: Currently working mostly on: Visual Lint :cool: Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "Be yourself - not what others think you should be" - Marcia Graesch "Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart" - A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work.
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MP (2) wrote:
the REAL cause of this.
Whats that?
Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
That is the question. But people don't seem to care what is the cause and try to fix it, they only care about who will win.
-------- "I say no to drugs, but they don't listen." - Marilyn Manson
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You're probably talking about the bombing of Dresden. Yes there were nazis there. But I fail to see the point in more or less oblitterating the entire city for anything but revenge.
The reason for terror bombing at the time was to redirect Nazi industry towards producing flak and interceptors, not tanks and artillery. The actual damage caused by strategic bombing on industry was pretty low. There was an interesting documentary recently of a load of WW2 UK cabinet meetings, churchill was all for obliterating cute German villages in reprisal for German reprisals in Czechoslovakia, he was talked down. -- modified at 10:17 Wednesday 26th July, 2006
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digital man wrote:
I think you are being terribly naive if you believe that anyone who critices Israel is not also anti-Semtic.
I think you are being terribly naive if you think the opposite. I am against the actions of China in Tibet without being anti the Chinese people or their country's right to exist. Having the might to defend yourself also burdens you with the requirement to use that power responsibly when faced with those weaker than you. If you think that anyone who criticises Israel is anti-semitic, then how will anyone ever be able to say anything against what they do? Do you want Israel to have carte blanche to do whatever they like against their neighbours?
"He's got a lot on his mind, and it's not a load-bearing structure." - John Weak
That's not what I said. In my experience of all the people I have met or spoken to that have expressed an anti-Israel stance in circumstances such as those that Israel now finds herself in have also been anti-Semitic in tone as the conversation/discussion goes on or gets a little heated. Many people are unable to see Israel as a discreet political entity populated by Jews, Christains, Muslims, atheists, etc, etc. They just see her as the Jewish state, populated and run by Jews who also run the rest of the world, epecially the US or the UK, blah, blah, etc, etc. It's a fact of life. If you are not a Jew you will never have heard or suffered this in the same way. Much like I can never truly understand the prejudice that black people have suffered.
viaduct wrote:
Do you want Israel to have carte blanche to do whatever they like against their neighbours
Why not? Syria and Iran and the rest of the world appear to be giving that to Hamas and Hexzbollah by their inaction and cowardice and if Israel doesn't finish the job it'll go on and on and draw in other countries. Do you want that? No? Then stand up for freedom and self-determination and say no to terrorism, say no to missiles into cities, to kidnappings, murder, suicide bombers, blown up trains and night clubs and passenger planes. Stand up for a country that is pretty much fighting a battle for all of us on their own.
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The reason for terror bombing at the time was to redirect Nazi industry towards producing flak and interceptors, not tanks and artillery. The actual damage caused by strategic bombing on industry was pretty low. There was an interesting documentary recently of a load of WW2 UK cabinet meetings, churchill was all for obliterating cute German villages in reprisal for German reprisals in Czechoslovakia, he was talked down. -- modified at 10:17 Wednesday 26th July, 2006
Ryan Roberts wrote:
The actual damnage caused by strategic bombing on industry was pretty low.
Uh... pretty much EVERYTHING in the inner city of Dresden became rubble. That includes THOUSANDS of homes. If that's "low", I'm afraid to ask of you what "much" is. :~ Or did you mean that the damage on the industry was low? Commas are nice sometimes.. ;)
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
The actual damnage caused by strategic bombing on industry was pretty low.
Uh... pretty much EVERYTHING in the inner city of Dresden became rubble. That includes THOUSANDS of homes. If that's "low", I'm afraid to ask of you what "much" is. :~ Or did you mean that the damage on the industry was low? Commas are nice sometimes.. ;)
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
Or did you mean that the damage on the industry was low?
Yep. Stupid punctuation. Must remember the "I helped my uncle jack off a horse" example.
Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
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digital man wrote:
Yes, they'll deny it and say they're not anti-Semitic, just anti-Israel so we won't be offended by their ignorance.
Did you know that "semite" actually denotes a family of peoples, including israelis and arabs? And by the way, you're wrong. But then again, you were just trolling.
Indeed I did: thank you for reminding me. Sadly it only appears to be applied when referring to Jews these days. BTW, I'm not a troll: couldn't be bothered: I really like a good argument, fought well. As it is I'm liek an addict today. Every time I close my browser I get a nagging feeling that I should go back in, just take a wee peek; see if anyone has flamed me or written a damn good reply. Maybe I need CP Rehab!:laugh:
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bookmarks You can ignore relatives but the neighbours live next door -
Roger J wrote:
Killing civilians in ww2 did not produce terrorists.
Yes it did. Bombing Germany increased their resolve, but screwed their military economy towards producing interceptors and AA guns. The Russians who invaded Berlin were killing 13 year old girls armed with panzerfausts.
Roger J wrote:
Nor did germany have that many allies in the end to aid them.
Other than hungary, slovakia, italy, japan, romania, austria, bulgaria etc, no.
Roger J wrote:
Palestina might possibly have the entire arab world on their side.
Not if we are clever and forment a Sunni/Shi'a war no.
Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Yes it did. Bombing Germany increased their resolve, but screwed their military economy towards producing interceptors and AA guns. The Russians who invaded Berlin were killing 13 year old girls armed with panzerfausts.
Not only armed. My father-in-law was in a group of some unarmed women and children when the red-army came hiding in a barn. They started to execute every single person they saw, until some of the "Wehrmacht" came and they left to fight against them. Many who saw that wanted to protect themselves with weapons But I think in every war there are war criminals and you can't judge the everyone because there were some slayers among them and - of course - Germans did the same earlier.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Other than hungary, slovakia, italy, japan, romania, austria, bulgaria etc, no.
At the end? When the US-Army came, italy changed the sides and some other countries, too. Did you ever noticed that Germany was the only country that was blamened? Regards, Ingo
------------------------------ PROST Roleplaying Game War doesn't determine who's right. War determines who's left.
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that explains the difference[^] The thread below by fat_kid is rife with pissing and moaning about what Israel is doing in self defense. The complaints about civilian deaths are a by product of the way the ***heads choose to fight. They obviously have no respect for life: putting civilians at risk for their own protection, storing rockets in homes, etc. Fuck'em. The problem wouldn't exist had they simply stayed on the other side of the border. Yes, the Bush administration has no doubt given Israel the green light - and that is a good thing as long as they carry through and eliminate the vermin.
Mike Dear NYT - the fact is, the founding fathers hung traitors. dennisd45 wrote: My view of the world is slightly more nuanced
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Stan Shannon wrote:
That isn't the question. The question is, could we have won if we had been unwilling to kill innocent civilians to get to him.
I think: yes, you could. You were already marching against the German troups, and Germany didn't had any resources left. Hitler didn't mind those bombing. But even though I think that it wasn't really right, I won't blame you for that. On the other hand I'm not a strategist, so perhaps war would have last two or three weeks longer... Regards, Ingo
------------------------------ PROST Roleplaying Game War doesn't determine who's right. War determines who's left.
ihoecken wrote:
Germany didn't had any resources left
Because we had been bombing them. By your reasoning, he would have just hidden all his resources behind civilians and kept them perfectly safe.
Thank God for disproportional force.
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Don't waste your time. If you don't join in their choir, you're just another terrorist lover. Remember, it's either "with us or against us".
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
If you don't join in their choir
feel free to sit on the side lines.
Mike Dear NYT - the fact is, the founding fathers hung traitors. dennisd45 wrote: My view of the world is slightly more nuanced
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If I'm not mistaken, the bombing of german civilians was just a retaliation on an "eye for an eye"-basis for what Hitler did to London. Did it really have that much of an impact on the outcome?
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Bombing innocent civilians was certainly the solution when it came to getting him.
That is interesting, isn't it? The "civilized world" is supposed to adhere to some sort of politically correct warfare whilst the primitive vermin can whale away indiscriminately - lobbing uncontrollable rockets into population centers (without international criticism).
Mike Dear NYT - the fact is, the founding fathers hung traitors. dennisd45 wrote: My view of the world is slightly more nuanced
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
vermin
From a dictionary definition ... "an offensive term for a person or group considered to be extremely unpleasant or undesirable" ---- Option 1 : If you were an Israeli or a supporter of Israel (eg USA) you obviously consider Islamic followers as "vermin" Option 2 :If you were an Islamic follower or a supporter of Islam you obviously consider Israel and its supports as "vermin" Which is correct, the first option, the second option, neither option, or both options. Now answer again if your are NEITHER Israeli, Israeli supporter, Islamic nor Islamic supporter. Then properly JUSTIFY your answers