Do Christians drink ?
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That's correct - the hour of day was too early for them to be likely to be drinking, and so the accusation was that they were 'drunk on grape juice', i.e. that they were acting as if drunk at an hour when they clearly were not. New wine is clearly grape juice - it's not fermented precisely because it's 'new'. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. "But there isn't a whole lot out there that pisses me off more than someone leaving my code looking like they leaned on the keyboard and prayed that it would compile. - Jamie Hale, 17/4/2002
I've been trying to stay out of these religion debates, but I need to get my post count up :-) Christian Graus wrote: New wine is clearly grape juice - it's not fermented precisely because it's 'new'. Yeah, this belief has been around for a while. The difference between the two wines. A lot of confusion has been caused through these bad translations. Wine and Grape Juice were in common usage back then and had usage for reasons of hygiene, Instead of drinking stagnant water in towns, but beer was popular as the beverage for drinking for alcoholic pleasure. Quite possibly Jesus converted water into "strong drink" rather than wine. I think this can be found in the Ariamac texts. Anyhow check Proverbs 20:1 for a difference between wine and beer :-) Also Timothy 5:23 can be read a couple of different ways. On another note, I wish someone would publish texts better than KJV for wide usage, the Greek texts have enough errors in them as it is. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
"real Americans don't criticize their leaders - because they don't want the terrorists to win." -- Quote from Chris Losinger a real American"
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The core issue as far as Romans is I guess if you want to follow God as much as you can, or as much as suits. Isn't it easier to not drink than to have to sneak around for the benefit of people whom it may cause harm ? Of course, getting into the Greek makes the Romans passage the weakest link in the argument, but from an English version it is probably the strongest and IMO more than strong enough. It's not about strength of faith in terms of what you allow, it's about doing what God says. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
Christian Graus wrote: Isn't it easier to not drink than to have to sneak around for the benefit of people whom it may cause harm ? Is it easier to be a vegetarian than to avoid rubbing meat into the faces of those who are? If you're drinking in a bar, those around you are likely to not have a problem with drinking; if you are drinking at home or with friends, you will know the beliefs of those around you and respect them. Christian Graus wrote: It's not about strength of faith in terms of what you allow, it's about doing what God says. Going back to the bit in Romans you quoted earlier: Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? To his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. That said, I can certainly understand you not wanting to drink; i've seen enough people drink who shouldn't be, including myself at times. --------_**
And we die young. Faster we run.
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Alice in Chains, We Die Young
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Christian Graus wrote: Isn't it easier to not drink than to have to sneak around for the benefit of people whom it may cause harm ? Is it easier to be a vegetarian than to avoid rubbing meat into the faces of those who are? If you're drinking in a bar, those around you are likely to not have a problem with drinking; if you are drinking at home or with friends, you will know the beliefs of those around you and respect them. Christian Graus wrote: It's not about strength of faith in terms of what you allow, it's about doing what God says. Going back to the bit in Romans you quoted earlier: Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? To his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. That said, I can certainly understand you not wanting to drink; i've seen enough people drink who shouldn't be, including myself at times. --------_**
And we die young. Faster we run.
**_
Alice in Chains, We Die Young
Shog9 wrote: Is it easier to be a vegetarian than to avoid rubbing meat into the faces of those who are? Is eating meat likely to cause offence ? It did in Paul's day, because it could have been sacrificed to idols. Shog9 wrote: If you're drinking in a bar, those around you are likely to not have a problem with drinking; if you are drinking at home or with friends, you will know the beliefs of those around you and respect them. To not offend someone who will be offended/tempted that you drink, you need to keep it a secret from them, totally. Paul didn't say he'd keep eating meat a secret, he said he would not do it at all. Shog9 wrote: Going back to the bit in Romans you quoted earlier: Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? To his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. you're trying to prove the opposite to what paul was saying - he was saying he would not judge someone for being weak in the faith, and instead go without rather than tempt them. You're using the verse as an excuse to lawlessness. Read 1 Cor if you think Paul thought Christians could do what they wanted and should only be told they were wrong by God. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
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Shog9 wrote: Is it easier to be a vegetarian than to avoid rubbing meat into the faces of those who are? Is eating meat likely to cause offence ? It did in Paul's day, because it could have been sacrificed to idols. Shog9 wrote: If you're drinking in a bar, those around you are likely to not have a problem with drinking; if you are drinking at home or with friends, you will know the beliefs of those around you and respect them. To not offend someone who will be offended/tempted that you drink, you need to keep it a secret from them, totally. Paul didn't say he'd keep eating meat a secret, he said he would not do it at all. Shog9 wrote: Going back to the bit in Romans you quoted earlier: Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? To his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. you're trying to prove the opposite to what paul was saying - he was saying he would not judge someone for being weak in the faith, and instead go without rather than tempt them. You're using the verse as an excuse to lawlessness. Read 1 Cor if you think Paul thought Christians could do what they wanted and should only be told they were wrong by God. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
Christian Graus wrote: Is eating meat likely to cause offence ? Possibly, although for different reasons. Christian Graus wrote: You're using the verse as an excuse to lawlessness. I took the verse out of context, although my intention was simply to call attention it. I missed your original interpretation of the quote it seems. --- I have a bad tendancy to sidetrack these discussions, so I'm not going to attempt a better reply tonight. I am intrigued; yours is a different take on this subject from that to which i've been exposed up until now... I'll have to do some research on this. kudos btw on posting something interesting in R&R; wonder if it'll start a trend... :) --------_**
And we die young. Faster we run.
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Alice in Chains, We Die Young
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That's correct - the hour of day was too early for them to be likely to be drinking, and so the accusation was that they were 'drunk on grape juice', i.e. that they were acting as if drunk at an hour when they clearly were not. New wine is clearly grape juice - it's not fermented precisely because it's 'new'. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. "But there isn't a whole lot out there that pisses me off more than someone leaving my code looking like they leaned on the keyboard and prayed that it would compile. - Jamie Hale, 17/4/2002
That's correct - the hour of day was too early for them to be likely to be drinking, and so the accusation was that they were 'drunk on grape juice', i.e. that they were acting as if drunk at an hour when they clearly were not. But others jeered at the believers, saying, "They are drunk on new wine!" If it was grape juice, why would the others be jeering that they were drunk on grape juice?? I mean yes, it was an early hour and that was their excuse as to the fact that they weren't drunk, but the group was saying (jerred) that they were. It doesn't make sence if it wasn't alcholic. Have fun, Paul Westcott.
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Shog9 wrote: Is it easier to be a vegetarian than to avoid rubbing meat into the faces of those who are? Is eating meat likely to cause offence ? It did in Paul's day, because it could have been sacrificed to idols. Shog9 wrote: If you're drinking in a bar, those around you are likely to not have a problem with drinking; if you are drinking at home or with friends, you will know the beliefs of those around you and respect them. To not offend someone who will be offended/tempted that you drink, you need to keep it a secret from them, totally. Paul didn't say he'd keep eating meat a secret, he said he would not do it at all. Shog9 wrote: Going back to the bit in Romans you quoted earlier: Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? To his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. you're trying to prove the opposite to what paul was saying - he was saying he would not judge someone for being weak in the faith, and instead go without rather than tempt them. You're using the verse as an excuse to lawlessness. Read 1 Cor if you think Paul thought Christians could do what they wanted and should only be told they were wrong by God. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
To not offend someone who will be offended/tempted that you drink, you need to keep it a secret from them, totally. Paul didn't say he'd keep eating meat a secret, he said he would not do it at all. So should I not eat anything sweet as it it tempting my mother who is a diabetic? (and actually I don't really, but this is my personal choice, and I am not offended/tempted by those who do) So should I not eat anything with nuts as there are people out there who are allergic to nuts? So should I not going to the countryside because there are people who get bad hay fever and thus can't? Should I not walk because there are people out there who don't have the use of their legs? Should I not read a book because there are people out too old to learn? If I have extreme talent, should I not use that talent because it will cause offence to other people? Ok, there are just being silly now. But when does one draw the line? I think the bible is just saying what modern science says about drinking. Do it in moderation and it's OK (actually not only OK, but good for you. Light drinkers live longer than abstainers, I remember a study saying.) But do it in excess and it's bad bad bad. Kills braincells, destroys your liver, social problems, all sorts of nasty stuff. Now if you (personally) choose not to drink then fine (commendable even). But the I think you are stretching the bibles translation to think that you shouldn't do anything that might cause offence/temptation to others. Have fun, Paul Westcott.
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To not offend someone who will be offended/tempted that you drink, you need to keep it a secret from them, totally. Paul didn't say he'd keep eating meat a secret, he said he would not do it at all. So should I not eat anything sweet as it it tempting my mother who is a diabetic? (and actually I don't really, but this is my personal choice, and I am not offended/tempted by those who do) So should I not eat anything with nuts as there are people out there who are allergic to nuts? So should I not going to the countryside because there are people who get bad hay fever and thus can't? Should I not walk because there are people out there who don't have the use of their legs? Should I not read a book because there are people out too old to learn? If I have extreme talent, should I not use that talent because it will cause offence to other people? Ok, there are just being silly now. But when does one draw the line? I think the bible is just saying what modern science says about drinking. Do it in moderation and it's OK (actually not only OK, but good for you. Light drinkers live longer than abstainers, I remember a study saying.) But do it in excess and it's bad bad bad. Kills braincells, destroys your liver, social problems, all sorts of nasty stuff. Now if you (personally) choose not to drink then fine (commendable even). But the I think you are stretching the bibles translation to think that you shouldn't do anything that might cause offence/temptation to others. Have fun, Paul Westcott.
Paul Westcott wrote: But the I think you are stretching the bibles translation to think that you shouldn't do anything that might cause offence/temptation to others. Because it's exactly what Paul said in Romans ? The difference with all of your examples is that it's not a case of upsetting someone who cannot drink, but causing offence to someone who has been delivered from the debilitating effects of alcoholism. There's your line, pure and simple. As I've said already, this is far from the clearest the original text is on the matter, but Paul makes clear here that if something could cause offence to a brother ( as meat sacrificed to idols was clearly a problem at the time ) then he'd rather do without it. The parallel is clear in the case of drugs and alcohol because these are things that destroy lives, not always, but for some, and those people are very likely to be sitting next to you in church. Would you seek to offend them for the sake of a drop of red ? Paul wouldn't, and that is the point he is making. Are we just going in circles ? I suspect we're hitting a point of saying the same thing to each other post after post. If you agree, I'm happy to drop it there. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
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Moved here from the lounge.... I don't disagree that the bible is against drunkeness. What I am saying is that it is not against enjoying a glass of wine or two over dinner - or in some social situation. The best evidence of this is from Paul: Romans 14:1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s. 9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 13Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way. 14I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. 16Let not then your good be evil spoken of: 17For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 18For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. 19Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. 20For meat destr
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You could also refer to the ecclesiast, 5:18 and 8:15. We're talking shit, 'cause life is a 'biz You know it is Everybody tryin' to get rich God damn! All I wanna do is live ! KoRn, Children of the Korn
In this statement I assume that you are referring to those examples as aiding my argument, not Christian's? Have fun, Paul Westcott.
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Paul Westcott wrote: But the I think you are stretching the bibles translation to think that you shouldn't do anything that might cause offence/temptation to others. Because it's exactly what Paul said in Romans ? The difference with all of your examples is that it's not a case of upsetting someone who cannot drink, but causing offence to someone who has been delivered from the debilitating effects of alcoholism. There's your line, pure and simple. As I've said already, this is far from the clearest the original text is on the matter, but Paul makes clear here that if something could cause offence to a brother ( as meat sacrificed to idols was clearly a problem at the time ) then he'd rather do without it. The parallel is clear in the case of drugs and alcohol because these are things that destroy lives, not always, but for some, and those people are very likely to be sitting next to you in church. Would you seek to offend them for the sake of a drop of red ? Paul wouldn't, and that is the point he is making. Are we just going in circles ? I suspect we're hitting a point of saying the same thing to each other post after post. If you agree, I'm happy to drop it there. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
Are we just going in circles ? I suspect we're hitting a point of saying the same thing to each other post after post. If you agree, I'm happy to drop it there. Yep, fine by me. I think that fact that we have two points of view shows that the argument is far from clear. Have fun, Paul Westcott.
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Are we just going in circles ? I suspect we're hitting a point of saying the same thing to each other post after post. If you agree, I'm happy to drop it there. Yep, fine by me. I think that fact that we have two points of view shows that the argument is far from clear. Have fun, Paul Westcott.
There are people who think the moon landing was faked and the Earth was flat. There being two opinions does not make them both well informed, or equally valid. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
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There are people who think the moon landing was faked and the Earth was flat. There being two opinions does not make them both well informed, or equally valid. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
My point exactly. Thanks for that. Have fun, Paul Westcott.
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You could also refer to the ecclesiast, 5:18 and 8:15. We're talking shit, 'cause life is a 'biz You know it is Everybody tryin' to get rich God damn! All I wanna do is live ! KoRn, Children of the Korn
It's a heck of a stretch to assume that the word drink here means alcohol, although it's also moot, as it's only in the NT that God's followers are all called to avoid alcohol, in the OT the priesthood stood between man and God, and they were the ones who were to abstain. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
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In this statement I assume that you are referring to those examples as aiding my argument, not Christian's? Have fun, Paul Westcott.
Because I don't ever understand what Christian wrote :-O , , I would agree with you :) IMHO, ff alcohol would have been "prohibited", wine would not have been chosen as symbol so many times (Cana wedding, Last Supper). We're talking shit, 'cause life is a 'biz You know it is Everybody tryin' to get rich God damn! All I wanna do is live ! KoRn, Children of the Korn