Latex - A new (Exciting???) article series [modified]
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The Grand Negus wrote:
I've never understood why an author would prefer something like Latex to a more "wysiwyg" approach like this [^].
:| There is a little thing called "for free" or "for fee" and I think some of us go with the "for free" one.
If you try to write that in English, I might be able to understand more than a fraction of it. - Guffa
PaulC1972 wrote:
There is a little thing called "for free" or "for fee" and I think some of us go with the "for free" one.
Sorry, foreign thought to me. If God gives one something to do, it can be expected that He will also provide appropriate means (free or not). So the issue of which is "better", "more suited", or simply "more effective" should not hang, so to speak, on the price tag.
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PaulC1972 wrote:
There is a little thing called "for free" or "for fee" and I think some of us go with the "for free" one.
Sorry, foreign thought to me. If God gives one something to do, it can be expected that He will also provide appropriate means (free or not). So the issue of which is "better", "more suited", or simply "more effective" should not hang, so to speak, on the price tag.
The Grand Negus wrote:
So the issue of which is "better", "more suited", or simply "more effective" should not hang, so to speak, on the price tag.
:| It can. I've seen things for free being better than ones for fee...
If you try to write that in English, I might be able to understand more than a fraction of it. - Guffa
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I've never understood why an author would prefer something like Latex to a more "wysiwyg" approach like this [^]. Thoughts?
True, I (as most of you) prefer wysiwyg apps. The current version of Latex (Latex 2e) does not directly support wysiwyg but there are applications that are wysiwyg which use Latex as a backend. These are also free (eg: Lyx[^]). Further, Latex 3 is currently in development that does support wysiwyg editors. I have taught Latex at our university to the first years and the first question (always) is "why should we learn it when we could just use Word?". I also felt the same (when I was their age :)) but now I struggle to use anything but Latex (even Word) to write up documents. Many people are like that for example, some people feel more comfortable typing up an HTML document by source than by wysiwyg. Latex provides far more than is available in, say Word or Open Office. It is free and comes by default with most Linux and Mac installations. Windows versions are also free with many wysiwyg tools available for creating mathematical formulas, graphics and presentations. There is also an article on CP that uses Latex to create images for web pages: http://www.codeproject.com/dotnet/Eq2Img.asp[^] Latex is not difficult to learn but takes time because there is alot of features avaliable. If anybody wants an example of a document created in Latex, email me at tal@corpkey.net and I will send you a pdf with an explanation of the document.
The best times in life are the ones you can't remember!!!
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True, I (as most of you) prefer wysiwyg apps. The current version of Latex (Latex 2e) does not directly support wysiwyg but there are applications that are wysiwyg which use Latex as a backend. These are also free (eg: Lyx[^]). Further, Latex 3 is currently in development that does support wysiwyg editors. I have taught Latex at our university to the first years and the first question (always) is "why should we learn it when we could just use Word?". I also felt the same (when I was their age :)) but now I struggle to use anything but Latex (even Word) to write up documents. Many people are like that for example, some people feel more comfortable typing up an HTML document by source than by wysiwyg. Latex provides far more than is available in, say Word or Open Office. It is free and comes by default with most Linux and Mac installations. Windows versions are also free with many wysiwyg tools available for creating mathematical formulas, graphics and presentations. There is also an article on CP that uses Latex to create images for web pages: http://www.codeproject.com/dotnet/Eq2Img.asp[^] Latex is not difficult to learn but takes time because there is alot of features avaliable. If anybody wants an example of a document created in Latex, email me at tal@corpkey.net and I will send you a pdf with an explanation of the document.
The best times in life are the ones you can't remember!!!
Another thing, if you do any search on Google Scholar[^], any new document you download would have been written in Latex. The scope of Latex is huge in the academic fields and so anybody attempting to publish an article relating to research conducted or discoveries made require the authors to know Latex.
The best times in life are the ones you can't remember!!!
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Another thing, if you do any search on Google Scholar[^], any new document you download would have been written in Latex. The scope of Latex is huge in the academic fields and so anybody attempting to publish an article relating to research conducted or discoveries made require the authors to know Latex.
The best times in life are the ones you can't remember!!!
Tal Even-Tov wrote:
The scope of Latex is huge in the academic fields and so anybody attempting to publish an article relating to research conducted or discoveries made require the authors to know Latex.
Which brings me back to my original question. Why should (or would) an author - who is attempting (presumably) to express himself, prefer an indirect method of doing so, when a comparable but more direct method is available? Case in point: Is it good that I have to hit the "Preview" button to see what this very post is going to look like? Wouldn't a wysiwyg editor be more effective here, in every way? Where is the advantage?
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Tal Even-Tov wrote:
The scope of Latex is huge in the academic fields and so anybody attempting to publish an article relating to research conducted or discoveries made require the authors to know Latex.
Which brings me back to my original question. Why should (or would) an author - who is attempting (presumably) to express himself, prefer an indirect method of doing so, when a comparable but more direct method is available? Case in point: Is it good that I have to hit the "Preview" button to see what this very post is going to look like? Wouldn't a wysiwyg editor be more effective here, in every way? Where is the advantage?
Because of inertia. You cannot easily change the methodology that people use; for this and for any technology ( including your own ). I'm certain that there are a lot of younger people that are using Publicon ( or even Word ) to typeset their papers than older "academic" people who are used to type their formulas with vi/emacs/notepag and LaTeX. One of the BIG problem with WYSIWYG softwares is that people tend to look at the container instead at what they have to put inside.
Maximilien Lincourt Your Head A Splode - Strong Bad
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Because of inertia. You cannot easily change the methodology that people use; for this and for any technology ( including your own ). I'm certain that there are a lot of younger people that are using Publicon ( or even Word ) to typeset their papers than older "academic" people who are used to type their formulas with vi/emacs/notepag and LaTeX. One of the BIG problem with WYSIWYG softwares is that people tend to look at the container instead at what they have to put inside.
Maximilien Lincourt Your Head A Splode - Strong Bad
Maximilien wrote:
Because of inertia. You cannot easily change the methodology that people use...
Especially if one is resigned to it. Active opposition to that which is worse and active support of that which is better is not an alternative, it's a duty. "Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate," Amos 5:15.
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Maximilien wrote:
Because of inertia. You cannot easily change the methodology that people use...
Especially if one is resigned to it. Active opposition to that which is worse and active support of that which is better is not an alternative, it's a duty. "Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate," Amos 5:15.
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Well, then, I bless you with the Great Osmosian Blessing: "May God give you exactly what you're asking for."
OK guys, sheesh :) OK, if you were to compare typesetting with Latex to creating an HTML page: You have plenty wysiwyg editors for creating web pages in HTML. So much so that anybody can put together a web page without knowing a stitch of HTML. However, if you want to then add more complex features using javascript, you wouldn't get very far without knowing HTML. If you wanted to change a picture every 3 seconds (for example), you would struggle. Similarly, typesetting can be done with any wysiwyg editor (free or not, makes no difference). If, however, you wanted to change/add something that the wysiwyg editor did not support you would either struggle or be unable to. You may or may not agree with the idea of scripting a document but whether you like it or not, Latex is used worldwide, mostly by academic institutes and research organisations (even Google). Almost every faculty, school and deparment at my university offers a course in Latex. In our School of Computer Science, it is the first course required for the undergraduate degree. The purpose of this article series would be to teach Latex from the ground up (as you would with HTML, say). It may seem difficult for some to understand the need for Latex but coming from an academic and research background, I couldn't get by without it.
The best times in life are the ones you can't remember!!!
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Hi all, I just wanted to ask you all about whether or not putting together a series of articles on Latex would be wanted. Latex is a scripting language used for generating high quality, standardized documents. It's focus is on typesetting the infamously difficult subjects such as complex mathematics for engineering and computer science. Latex is a standard in most tertiary education institutes and is used by scientists throughout the world. It is widely available for all platforms. Latex can be quite difficult for newbies and a series of articles would be valuable for those who want to use it. Please, if anyone wants this series please reply. Thanks -- modified at 4:41 Saturday 9th December, 2006
The best times in life are the ones that you can't remember!!!
OK, new question. If I were to write this article series, inwhich category should it be placed?
The best times in life are the ones you can't remember!!!
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OK guys, sheesh :) OK, if you were to compare typesetting with Latex to creating an HTML page: You have plenty wysiwyg editors for creating web pages in HTML. So much so that anybody can put together a web page without knowing a stitch of HTML. However, if you want to then add more complex features using javascript, you wouldn't get very far without knowing HTML. If you wanted to change a picture every 3 seconds (for example), you would struggle. Similarly, typesetting can be done with any wysiwyg editor (free or not, makes no difference). If, however, you wanted to change/add something that the wysiwyg editor did not support you would either struggle or be unable to. You may or may not agree with the idea of scripting a document but whether you like it or not, Latex is used worldwide, mostly by academic institutes and research organisations (even Google). Almost every faculty, school and deparment at my university offers a course in Latex. In our School of Computer Science, it is the first course required for the undergraduate degree. The purpose of this article series would be to teach Latex from the ground up (as you would with HTML, say). It may seem difficult for some to understand the need for Latex but coming from an academic and research background, I couldn't get by without it.
The best times in life are the ones you can't remember!!!
Tal Even-Tov wrote:
In our School of Computer Science, it is the first course required for the undergraduate degree.
And that seems reasonable to you?
Tal Even-Tov wrote:
...coming from an academic and research background, I couldn't get by without it.
Which, at least from my point of view, is very curious. How did Einstein manage? Newton? da Vinci? Euclid? for that matter, Moses? Please give me examples of the kinds of thoughts that can be easily and effectively expressed using Latex, that cannot be as easily or as effectively expressed using an appropriate wysiwyg editor, and that would therefore make an author attempting to express those thoughts unable to "get by without it".
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Tal Even-Tov wrote:
In our School of Computer Science, it is the first course required for the undergraduate degree.
And that seems reasonable to you?
Tal Even-Tov wrote:
...coming from an academic and research background, I couldn't get by without it.
Which, at least from my point of view, is very curious. How did Einstein manage? Newton? da Vinci? Euclid? for that matter, Moses? Please give me examples of the kinds of thoughts that can be easily and effectively expressed using Latex, that cannot be as easily or as effectively expressed using an appropriate wysiwyg editor, and that would therefore make an author attempting to express those thoughts unable to "get by without it".
Our courses are of the very theoretical type and often require our students to perform mathematical calculations, make observations and present those back to us. While it is theoretically unecessary for first years, it becomes quite necessary in the postgraduate degrees and since we hope that at least some of our students will make it that far, we decided to get them used to Latex.
The Grand Negus wrote:
How did Einstein manage? Newton? da Vinci? Euclid?
Academic research, these days, has conformed to a standard in terms of reporting the results of the research. All major journals (ACM, IEEE, CSJSA, etc) require submitted documents to be typeset in Latex. If they are not then they don't even look at the documents.
The Grand Negus wrote:
Please give me examples of the kinds of thoughts that can be easily and effectively expressed using Latex
In my area of research (Computational Molecular Biology, Pattern Recognition and Image/Signal Processing) I sometimes have to present work that requires complex statistical results and modeling data. While there are wysiwyg editors that can typeset this, Latex is the only one that has become a worldwide standard specifically designed for typesetting this.
The best times in life are the ones you can't remember!!!
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Our courses are of the very theoretical type and often require our students to perform mathematical calculations, make observations and present those back to us. While it is theoretically unecessary for first years, it becomes quite necessary in the postgraduate degrees and since we hope that at least some of our students will make it that far, we decided to get them used to Latex.
The Grand Negus wrote:
How did Einstein manage? Newton? da Vinci? Euclid?
Academic research, these days, has conformed to a standard in terms of reporting the results of the research. All major journals (ACM, IEEE, CSJSA, etc) require submitted documents to be typeset in Latex. If they are not then they don't even look at the documents.
The Grand Negus wrote:
Please give me examples of the kinds of thoughts that can be easily and effectively expressed using Latex
In my area of research (Computational Molecular Biology, Pattern Recognition and Image/Signal Processing) I sometimes have to present work that requires complex statistical results and modeling data. While there are wysiwyg editors that can typeset this, Latex is the only one that has become a worldwide standard specifically designed for typesetting this.
The best times in life are the ones you can't remember!!!
It doesnt matter how many times you put forward your eloquent and well-informed (not to mention educated) oppinion, the Grand Nag-us will insist that he is right and the whole world is doing it wrong. Give up while you have some sanity.
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OK, new question. If I were to write this article series, inwhich category should it be placed?
The best times in life are the ones you can't remember!!!
I doubt it fits well into any category on Codeproject - as CP is pretty much dedicated to .NET/VS with some other MS centric stuff thrown in for good measure. That is not to say that you shouldnt write an article on something that you obviously have knowledge and experience of - just that maybe CP isnt the best place for it. Of course, I dont work for CP so I dont make the decisions. If you write your articles and send them in we'll all see what happens.
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Well, then, I bless you with the Great Osmosian Blessing: "May God give you exactly what you're asking for."
The Grand Negus wrote:
Well, then, I bless you with the Great Osmosian Blessing: "May God give you exactly what you're asking for."
F*ck Off. That's mine :cool:
Don't know where to start ?
Refer the Forums Guidelines and ask a friend -
Our courses are of the very theoretical type and often require our students to perform mathematical calculations, make observations and present those back to us. While it is theoretically unecessary for first years, it becomes quite necessary in the postgraduate degrees and since we hope that at least some of our students will make it that far, we decided to get them used to Latex.
The Grand Negus wrote:
How did Einstein manage? Newton? da Vinci? Euclid?
Academic research, these days, has conformed to a standard in terms of reporting the results of the research. All major journals (ACM, IEEE, CSJSA, etc) require submitted documents to be typeset in Latex. If they are not then they don't even look at the documents.
The Grand Negus wrote:
Please give me examples of the kinds of thoughts that can be easily and effectively expressed using Latex
In my area of research (Computational Molecular Biology, Pattern Recognition and Image/Signal Processing) I sometimes have to present work that requires complex statistical results and modeling data. While there are wysiwyg editors that can typeset this, Latex is the only one that has become a worldwide standard specifically designed for typesetting this.
The best times in life are the ones you can't remember!!!
Tal Even-Tov wrote:
While it is theoretically unecessary for first years, it becomes quite necessary in the postgraduate degrees and since we hope that at least some of our students will make it that far, we decided to get them used to Latex.
In other words, "We require something in the first year that might be necessary - for a select few - several years later." Excuse the over-use of italics but I was trying to highlight the errors in your thinking - and it turned out to be almost the entire thought! This requirement seems reasonable to you? C'mon. I know you've got a vested interest in the thing, but be reasonable, man! Teaching students things they will probably never need and that they won't productively use in the short term is exactly what's wrong with the whole educational system!
Tal Even-Tov wrote:
Academic research, these days, has conformed to a standard in terms of reporting the results of the research. All major journals (ACM, IEEE, CSJSA, etc) require submitted documents to be typeset in Latex. If they are not then they don't even look at the documents.
And that seems reasonable to you? It's the journal's business to typeset things, not the author's. Meaningful submissions scribbled on a napkin should be acceptable - otherwise, we might miss something really important from somewhere "outside the box". It's just plain wrong to burden genius with bureaucracy. But even so. Let - no encourage - the author to type it up wysiwyg and let some program generate the Latex. Nobody is fool enough to hand-code a WORD document file because submissions are required in that format; why would they? Your argument here is essentially, "The powers that be are insisting on, and sustaining, an ineffective and unnecessarily complex way of doing things".
Tal Even-Tov wrote:
While there are wysiwyg editors that can typeset this, Latex is the only one that has become a worldwide standard specifically designed for typesetting this.
Same answer as above - use a wysiwyg editor and generate the Latex. Why burden an author with such unnecessary complexity and distracting indirectness? Where is the benefit? the benefit?
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I doubt it fits well into any category on Codeproject - as CP is pretty much dedicated to .NET/VS with some other MS centric stuff thrown in for good measure. That is not to say that you shouldnt write an article on something that you obviously have knowledge and experience of - just that maybe CP isnt the best place for it. Of course, I dont work for CP so I dont make the decisions. If you write your articles and send them in we'll all see what happens.
Thanks. You are probably one of the only people in the forums that can give a good, straight answer without all the extra BS. Yeah, perhaps CP is not the best place for these articles. I wasn't sure, hence the original point to this thread. I just thought that since it is a scripting language that maybe it would fit somewhere here. I'm not sure where else I could submit :confused:
The best times in life are the ones you can't remember!!!
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Tal Even-Tov wrote:
While it is theoretically unecessary for first years, it becomes quite necessary in the postgraduate degrees and since we hope that at least some of our students will make it that far, we decided to get them used to Latex.
In other words, "We require something in the first year that might be necessary - for a select few - several years later." Excuse the over-use of italics but I was trying to highlight the errors in your thinking - and it turned out to be almost the entire thought! This requirement seems reasonable to you? C'mon. I know you've got a vested interest in the thing, but be reasonable, man! Teaching students things they will probably never need and that they won't productively use in the short term is exactly what's wrong with the whole educational system!
Tal Even-Tov wrote:
Academic research, these days, has conformed to a standard in terms of reporting the results of the research. All major journals (ACM, IEEE, CSJSA, etc) require submitted documents to be typeset in Latex. If they are not then they don't even look at the documents.
And that seems reasonable to you? It's the journal's business to typeset things, not the author's. Meaningful submissions scribbled on a napkin should be acceptable - otherwise, we might miss something really important from somewhere "outside the box". It's just plain wrong to burden genius with bureaucracy. But even so. Let - no encourage - the author to type it up wysiwyg and let some program generate the Latex. Nobody is fool enough to hand-code a WORD document file because submissions are required in that format; why would they? Your argument here is essentially, "The powers that be are insisting on, and sustaining, an ineffective and unnecessarily complex way of doing things".
Tal Even-Tov wrote:
While there are wysiwyg editors that can typeset this, Latex is the only one that has become a worldwide standard specifically designed for typesetting this.
Same answer as above - use a wysiwyg editor and generate the Latex. Why burden an author with such unnecessary complexity and distracting indirectness? Where is the benefit? the benefit?
I can only assume by your lengthy argument that you have never performed any worthwhile research (and if you have) never had it published.
The Grand Negus wrote:
And that seems reasonable to you? It's the journal's business to typeset things, not the author's. Meaningful submissions scribbled on a napkin should be acceptable - otherwise, we might miss something really important from somewhere "outside the box". It's just plain wrong to burden genius with bureaucracy.
Journals like ACM receive thousands of papers and articles for publishing and so it is unreasonable to request them to typeset it for you. If you had to submit some report to your boss you wouldn't submit it via napkin! You have a point in the fact that having to typeset your work yourself is cumbersome but if it is your work, you have a responsibility to typeset it yourself. The general consensus ammong ALL researchers today is that presenting your work is just as important as doing the work. If you have put all this effort into discovering something new but cannot communicate it effectively then there is no point in even researching in the first place. Latex has it's place in the world (whether you like it or not) and yes I do have a vested intrest in it as do at least a million other people around the world.
The best times in life are the ones you can't remember!!!
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Hi all, I just wanted to ask you all about whether or not putting together a series of articles on Latex would be wanted. Latex is a scripting language used for generating high quality, standardized documents. It's focus is on typesetting the infamously difficult subjects such as complex mathematics for engineering and computer science. Latex is a standard in most tertiary education institutes and is used by scientists throughout the world. It is widely available for all platforms. Latex can be quite difficult for newbies and a series of articles would be valuable for those who want to use it. Please, if anyone wants this series please reply. Thanks -- modified at 4:41 Saturday 9th December, 2006
The best times in life are the ones that you can't remember!!!
Thanks to most of you for communicating on this thread. CodeProject has advised me that, currently, there is no place (category) for the proposed article series. However, they will be adding a category to accommodate articles like these. Thanks CP :-D They also advised me to begin the article series. Thanks all for your input. I will also include (somewhere) in the article series about using wysiwyg editors that use Latex. Since this brings out heated debates I thought it better to cover both sides of the coin. Thanks and I'll check you guys around CP. :cool:
The best times in life are the ones you can't remember!!!