Oh, and one other point on minimum wage...
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Regardless of the economic issues, pro or con, it is simply an act of political tyranny for any government to force free citizens to pay more for something than it is otherwise worth to them. And any one who doesn't understand that is a fucking communist.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
You are still free to not employ someone. At least that's what I am told whenever I complain about inevitabilities.
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We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
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Stan Shannon wrote:
it is simply an act of political tyranny for any government to force free citizens to pay more for something than it is otherwise worth to them
No-one is suggesting a level of force.
Stan Shannon wrote:
And any one who doesn't understand that is a f****ing communist.
The reds aren't under the bed anymore Stan. Pull yourself into the 1990s, at least. Your statement is ignorant and an attempt to make a broad brush statement rather than deal with the issues. Something like if I said 'anyone who thinks it's OK for society to exploit and abuse it's weakest members is a fascist' Sounds good, but it means nothing. It's a way to hide from meaningful discussion, not a meaningful comment.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Centralized political management of markets is precisely what communism is. That isn't ignorant, it is the truth. And that is precisely what minimum wage represents. It is an idea straight out of Marxist thought. It is wrong, it is evil, it is tyranny, and it is economically ignorant.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Josh Gray wrote:
My point is that the value of something is not what it is worth to you, it's what you are willing to pay for it.
And my point is that if a employee is worth a buck fifty per hour to me, that is damn well what it is worth to me. I'm talking about the cost of making a pizza, not buying one. For the government to put a gun to my head and tell me that I have to pay more than that, is an overt act of economic and political tyranny. The only possible reason for someone not to see that is bacause they are blinded by the glare reflecting off of their shiney Marxist utopia.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
Stan Shannon wrote:
And my point is that if a employee is worth a buck fifty per hour to me, that is damn well what it is worth to me.
The point is, if it's only worth $1.50, then your business model is flawed and you need to find a way to pursue your dream without exploiting someone who, through their own problems, is willing to take that over nothing. You're just respouting your rethoric, instead of answering the comments being made.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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That is absolutely the most ignorant reply I have ever heard. So, just to be sure I understand, because the value of anything is what someone will pay for it, economic tyranny is justified. OK, I get it. Thanks for the enlightenment. :rolleyes:
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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You are still free to not employ someone. At least that's what I am told whenever I complain about inevitabilities.
Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Velopers, Develprs, Developers!
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
Linkify!|Fold With Us!peterchen wrote:
You are still free to not employ someone.
Thats like telling me I'm free to not buy anything the government might wish to regulate. That isn't freedom, that is the abscence of it. Thats communism. If I am free, if I own my own pizza hut, it is no ones business but mine and the people I hire how much I pay them. If they don't like it, they can find another job.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Stan Shannon wrote:
And my point is that if a employee is worth a buck fifty per hour to me, that is damn well what it is worth to me.
The point is, if it's only worth $1.50, then your business model is flawed and you need to find a way to pursue your dream without exploiting someone who, through their own problems, is willing to take that over nothing. You're just respouting your rethoric, instead of answering the comments being made.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
instead of answering the comments being made.
The comments being made are: "The government has the right to impose its values through manipulation of the evil capitalistic markets any time it pleases, for any reason it pleases". That flies in the face of every principle the United States of America was established to achieve. If the rest of you people want Marx, thats fine with me. But I want Jefferson.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Centralized political management of markets is precisely what communism is. That isn't ignorant, it is the truth. And that is precisely what minimum wage represents. It is an idea straight out of Marxist thought. It is wrong, it is evil, it is tyranny, and it is economically ignorant.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
So, in your view, the poor, along with the disabled, should be what ? Shot ? Sent to the gulag ? You apparently don't think society should be protecting those who cannot protect themselves ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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So, in your view, the poor, along with the disabled, should be what ? Shot ? Sent to the gulag ? You apparently don't think society should be protecting those who cannot protect themselves ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
So, in your view, the poor, along with the disabled, should be what ? Shot ? Sent to the gulag ? You apparently don't think society should be protecting those who cannot protect themselves ?
No, in my view the poor should be given opportunity by allowing the markets the greatest possible level of freedom. In such an evnviroment, everyone will make far more, and have far more opportunity to end their poverty, than they would in a more regulated society. It is your philosophy which hurts the poor, not mine. You do not have the moral high ground on this issue. I do. I want to end poverty, by increasing freedom, you want to make it a bit more comfortable by increasing tyranny.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Christian Graus wrote:
instead of answering the comments being made.
The comments being made are: "The government has the right to impose its values through manipulation of the evil capitalistic markets any time it pleases, for any reason it pleases". That flies in the face of every principle the United States of America was established to achieve. If the rest of you people want Marx, thats fine with me. But I want Jefferson.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
OK, I see. The basic problem is one of English comprehension. Fair enough. So, I'd be right in saying that you want to have all mentally retarded people shot ? I mean, that would be as accurate a reading of your responses, as your reading of my responses is.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Stan Shannon wrote:
That is absolutely the most ignorant reply I have ever heard.
PS. Thats is both a compliment and real achievment around here :)
System.IO.Path.IsPathRooted() does not behave as I would expect
Josh Gray wrote:
Thats is both a compliment and real achievment around here
I thought you might appreciate that. ;P
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Christian Graus wrote:
So, in your view, the poor, along with the disabled, should be what ? Shot ? Sent to the gulag ? You apparently don't think society should be protecting those who cannot protect themselves ?
No, in my view the poor should be given opportunity by allowing the markets the greatest possible level of freedom. In such an evnviroment, everyone will make far more, and have far more opportunity to end their poverty, than they would in a more regulated society. It is your philosophy which hurts the poor, not mine. You do not have the moral high ground on this issue. I do. I want to end poverty, by increasing freedom, you want to make it a bit more comfortable by increasing tyranny.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
Do you read the Bible, Stan ? In the book of James, he points out that if someone is hungry, saying to them 'be filled' will not solve their issue. That seems to me what you're doing, you'd tell those in need, that they have no problems, because of the Jeffersonian ideal is hard at work. How does it help anyone, for someone to work for $1.50 an hour ? Except the guy making money off that person, of course. Do you think that such a person would then turn around and hire people at reasonable wages ? No, they'd make more $1.50 an hour jobs, obviously.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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OK, I see. The basic problem is one of English comprehension. Fair enough. So, I'd be right in saying that you want to have all mentally retarded people shot ? I mean, that would be as accurate a reading of your responses, as your reading of my responses is.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
What are you talking about? Minimum wage IS centralized government management of markets just as certainly as if they were setting the price of any other good or service. That isn't a mischaracterization of what someone is saying, it is exactly what it is. It is, in fact, pure, unadulterated Marxism.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Regardless of the economic issues, pro or con, it is simply an act of political tyranny for any government to force free citizens to pay more for something than it is otherwise worth to them. And any one who doesn't understand that is a fucking communist.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
Governments who have passed laws that require a minimum wage to be paid to workers are using those laws to reduce or eradicate poverty. It is a poor society that condemns its citizens to poverty or below poverty criteria such as those individuals living in the Indian sub-continent whose pay is barely enough to afford a bowl of rice a day. If Governments did not seek to avoid or reduce poverty, I know that business in general won't because businesses are there for profit not to give charity. It is the same with local authorities, local authorities won't do anything unless a law exists that tells them what to do etc. This is nothing to do with communism.
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What are you talking about? Minimum wage IS centralized government management of markets just as certainly as if they were setting the price of any other good or service. That isn't a mischaracterization of what someone is saying, it is exactly what it is. It is, in fact, pure, unadulterated Marxism.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
I've pointed out at least three times, that the flip side of the issue is that a society should protect it's weakest members. You've failed to respond to this. I can only assume that this means you don't think anyone deserves societies protection, unless they have a well paying job.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Do you read the Bible, Stan ? In the book of James, he points out that if someone is hungry, saying to them 'be filled' will not solve their issue. That seems to me what you're doing, you'd tell those in need, that they have no problems, because of the Jeffersonian ideal is hard at work. How does it help anyone, for someone to work for $1.50 an hour ? Except the guy making money off that person, of course. Do you think that such a person would then turn around and hire people at reasonable wages ? No, they'd make more $1.50 an hour jobs, obviously.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
How does it help anyone, for someone to work for $1.50 an hour ? Except the guy making money off that person, of course. Do you think that such a person would then turn around and hire people at reasonable wages ? No, they'd make more $1.50 an hour jobs, obviously.
No, thay would say "wow, being poor sucks. I can't live as I would like to live. I'd better do something besides making pizza." Instead, now, they say "Oh look, the government just put a gun to my bosses head and forced him to pay me more than I'm worth to anyone. I guess I'll just hang around here and make pizza since it would just be too hard to try to better myself". In the former situation, I would have no choice but to pay more as more and more workers moved on to better paying positions. Certainly, I could get buy by hiring an endless flow of illegal aliens, but that would be an argument for closing the damned borders, not for minimum wage.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Christian Graus wrote:
How does it help anyone, for someone to work for $1.50 an hour ? Except the guy making money off that person, of course. Do you think that such a person would then turn around and hire people at reasonable wages ? No, they'd make more $1.50 an hour jobs, obviously.
No, thay would say "wow, being poor sucks. I can't live as I would like to live. I'd better do something besides making pizza." Instead, now, they say "Oh look, the government just put a gun to my bosses head and forced him to pay me more than I'm worth to anyone. I guess I'll just hang around here and make pizza since it would just be too hard to try to better myself". In the former situation, I would have no choice but to pay more as more and more workers moved on to better paying positions. Certainly, I could get buy by hiring an endless flow of illegal aliens, but that would be an argument for closing the damned borders, not for minimum wage.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
OK, so your core argument is, if you exploit someone sufficiently, they'll get sick of poverty and become a brain surgeon ? No-one has any person issues which prevent them from making more than minimum wage, whatever that is ? And, if minimum wage is $5 an hour, that's $10, 000 a year. You claim that someone making $200 a week lives in a paradise beyond compare, and would never hope to aspire to anything more ? I'm just plain astounded. Did you ever work for the government ? Surely no-one gets this brainwashed just by watching TV ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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I've pointed out at least three times, that the flip side of the issue is that a society should protect it's weakest members. You've failed to respond to this. I can only assume that this means you don't think anyone deserves societies protection, unless they have a well paying job.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
I've pointed out at least three times, that the flip side of the issue is that a society should protect it's weakest members. You've failed to respond to this. I can only assume that this means you don't think anyone deserves societies protection, unless they have a well paying job.
And I have resonded repeatedly that it doesn't protect anyone from anything other than themselves. Even if you could argue that you are proteceting them economically (which you aren't) you are not protecting their freedom. Freedom is about personnal responsibility and being able to care for oneself. That is what should be encouraged. A growing economy is the best protection for the poor, not having government trying to micromanage the economy for your benefit.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Governments who have passed laws that require a minimum wage to be paid to workers are using those laws to reduce or eradicate poverty. It is a poor society that condemns its citizens to poverty or below poverty criteria such as those individuals living in the Indian sub-continent whose pay is barely enough to afford a bowl of rice a day. If Governments did not seek to avoid or reduce poverty, I know that business in general won't because businesses are there for profit not to give charity. It is the same with local authorities, local authorities won't do anything unless a law exists that tells them what to do etc. This is nothing to do with communism.
Come on Richard, you're not new here. Everything about Stan is to do with Communism. I think I just heard Red calling, he want's his prisim back.
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OK, so your core argument is, if you exploit someone sufficiently, they'll get sick of poverty and become a brain surgeon ? No-one has any person issues which prevent them from making more than minimum wage, whatever that is ? And, if minimum wage is $5 an hour, that's $10, 000 a year. You claim that someone making $200 a week lives in a paradise beyond compare, and would never hope to aspire to anything more ? I'm just plain astounded. Did you ever work for the government ? Surely no-one gets this brainwashed just by watching TV ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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OK, so your core argument is, if you exploit someone sufficiently, they'll get sick of poverty and become a brain surgeon ? No-one has any person issues which prevent them from making more than minimum wage, whatever that is ? And, if minimum wage is $5 an hour, that's $10, 000 a year. You claim that someone making $200 a week lives in a paradise beyond compare, and would never hope to aspire to anything more ? I'm just plain astounded. Did you ever work for the government ? Surely no-one gets this brainwashed just by watching TV ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
OK, so your core argument is, if you exploit someone sufficiently, they'll get sick of poverty and become a brain surgeon ?
Yes, percisely. The typical human does not like being exploited, and if given sufficient freedom will tendto avoid it. That is why I don't like the government forcing us to pay minimum wage - thats exploitation of me by the government.
Christian Graus wrote:
No-one has any person issues which prevent them from making more than minimum wage, whatever that is ? And, if minimum wage is $5 an hour, that's $10, 000 a year. You claim that someone making $200 a week lives in a paradise beyond compare, and would never hope to aspire to anything more ?
Of course not, which is why jobs that actually pay minimum wage are rare. and proof of why it should simply be eliminated.
Christian Graus wrote:
Surely no-one gets this brainwashed just by watching TV ?
I was brainwashed by my parents, by reading Jefferson, and living my life as an American - and by observing the dysfunctionality of economies in direct proportion to how committed they are to Marxism.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about