Oh, and one other point on minimum wage...
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OK, so your core argument is, if you exploit someone sufficiently, they'll get sick of poverty and become a brain surgeon ? No-one has any person issues which prevent them from making more than minimum wage, whatever that is ? And, if minimum wage is $5 an hour, that's $10, 000 a year. You claim that someone making $200 a week lives in a paradise beyond compare, and would never hope to aspire to anything more ? I'm just plain astounded. Did you ever work for the government ? Surely no-one gets this brainwashed just by watching TV ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
I'm just plain astounded. Did you ever work for the government ? Surely no-one gets this brainwashed just by watching TV ?
No, not TV. Through dental fillings. Hence the need for a tinfoil hat. I think Stan's had it on more frequently though - the Marxist signals don't seem to be reaching him anymore and he's dropped off the Marxdar... (Marxist Detection And Ranging).
Windows with no internet connection is safe, but that's not what Windows was built for.
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Christian Graus wrote:
OK, so your core argument is, if you exploit someone sufficiently, they'll get sick of poverty and become a brain surgeon ?
Yes, percisely. The typical human does not like being exploited, and if given sufficient freedom will tendto avoid it. That is why I don't like the government forcing us to pay minimum wage - thats exploitation of me by the government.
Christian Graus wrote:
No-one has any person issues which prevent them from making more than minimum wage, whatever that is ? And, if minimum wage is $5 an hour, that's $10, 000 a year. You claim that someone making $200 a week lives in a paradise beyond compare, and would never hope to aspire to anything more ?
Of course not, which is why jobs that actually pay minimum wage are rare. and proof of why it should simply be eliminated.
Christian Graus wrote:
Surely no-one gets this brainwashed just by watching TV ?
I was brainwashed by my parents, by reading Jefferson, and living my life as an American - and by observing the dysfunctionality of economies in direct proportion to how committed they are to Marxism.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
Stan Shannon wrote:
Yes, percisely. The typical human does not like being exploited, and if given sufficient freedom will tendto avoid it. That is why I don't like the government forcing us to pay minimum wage - thats exploitation of me by the government.
I want to rob people. The government forces me not to rob people through the threat of incarceration. I don't like the government forcing me not to rob. That's exploitation of me by the government. If capitalism is so good to you and gives you freedom, why don't you go buy some uncharted island near Papua New Guinea and live the way you want? Or is capitalism restricting you like it is me?
Windows with no internet connection is safe, but that's not what Windows was built for.
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Regardless of the economic issues, pro or con, it is simply an act of political tyranny for any government to force free citizens to pay more for something than it is otherwise worth to them. And any one who doesn't understand that is a fucking communist.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
Stan Shannon wrote:
it is simply an act of political tyranny for any government to force free citizens to pay more for something than it is otherwise worth to them.
If the government pushes up the minimum wage such that the cost of an item is higher than it's value to me then I don't buy it. No one is forcing me to buy it. Unfortunately, the downside is that the company loses revenue because it can't sell so much.
Upcoming events: * Glasgow Geek Dinner (5th March) * Glasgow: Tell us what you want to see in 2007 My: Website | Blog | Photos
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Josh Gray wrote:
My point is that the value of something is not what it is worth to you, it's what you are willing to pay for it.
And my point is that if a employee is worth a buck fifty per hour to me, that is damn well what it is worth to me. I'm talking about the cost of making a pizza, not buying one. For the government to put a gun to my head and tell me that I have to pay more than that, is an overt act of economic and political tyranny. The only possible reason for someone not to see that is bacause they are blinded by the glare reflecting off of their shiney Marxist utopia.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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John Carson wrote:
The government sets the minimum that must be paid if you hire labour. It does not, however, compel you to hire labour. Accordingly, if the minimum is more than the labour is worth to you, then you don't hire the labour. Nobody is forced to pay more than the labour is worth to them.
John Carson wrote:
call me a communist if you will
OK, you're a communist. Anyone who cannot see that government interference in what a free citizen pays for anything is tyranny, is, in fact, a communist.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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peterchen wrote:
You are still free to not employ someone.
Thats like telling me I'm free to not buy anything the government might wish to regulate. That isn't freedom, that is the abscence of it. Thats communism. If I am free, if I own my own pizza hut, it is no ones business but mine and the people I hire how much I pay them. If they don't like it, they can find another job.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
Stan Shannon wrote:
That isn't freedom, that is the abscence of it.
Of course it is. You are free to not hire anyone. That's freedom. Freedom of choice. You have the choice to hire someone at the required wage, or do the work yourself. You have the freedom to determine if it's really worth hiring someone. If you feel this posts an unfair infringement on your business, you are also free to sell the business. That's freedom.
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Yeah, you're right. The United States is just like Communist Russia or East Germany :rolleyes: You need papers to go between states. You are restricted to one car color. I see your point. We are so restricted here. :rolleyes: Please give us a break.
ednrgc wrote:
I see your point. We are so restricted here.
I know - it's like, you can't even steal stuff from people or starve to death. And forget about suicide or euthanasia. Talk about government interference. How is that freedom? The U.S. is nothing but a tyrranical communist state that oppresses all people.
Windows with no internet connection is safe, but that's not what Windows was built for.
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ednrgc wrote:
I see your point. We are so restricted here.
I know - it's like, you can't even steal stuff from people or starve to death. And forget about suicide or euthanasia. Talk about government interference. How is that freedom? The U.S. is nothing but a tyrranical communist state that oppresses all people.
Windows with no internet connection is safe, but that's not what Windows was built for.
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ednrgc wrote:
You also have the freedom to leave anytime you like.
No I don't, I earn minimum wage! I'm being held captive! Help, help, I'm being repressed!
Windows with no internet connection is safe, but that's not what Windows was built for.
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Regardless of the economic issues, pro or con, it is simply an act of political tyranny for any government to force free citizens to pay more for something than it is otherwise worth to them. And any one who doesn't understand that is a fucking communist.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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McCarthy striked again.
The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread Fold with us! ¤ flickr
My hero.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Regardless of the economic issues, pro or con, it is simply an act of political tyranny for any government to force free citizens to pay more for something than it is otherwise worth to them. And any one who doesn't understand that is a f****ing communist.
OH MY GOD! I just realized...My donations to charity are steeped in communist ideals! I'm interfering in a poor person's freedom to starve! Why, I'm stopping RIGHT NOW! I'd better alert the Vatican that their tradition of tithing is also based on Marxism. The Reds are everywhere! The Reds are everywhere! AIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!
Windows with no internet connection is safe, but that's not what Windows was built for.
Communism is about government forcing people to be 'charitable'. Private charity is not communist at all but entirely christian.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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John Carson wrote:
The government sets the minimum that must be paid if you hire labour. It does not, however, compel you to hire labour. Accordingly, if the minimum is more than the labour is worth to you, then you don't hire the labour. Nobody is forced to pay more than the labour is worth to them.
John Carson wrote:
call me a communist if you will
OK, you're a communist. Anyone who cannot see that government interference in what a free citizen pays for anything is tyranny, is, in fact, a communist.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
You can't actually respond intelligently to the fact that these business owners don't have to hire people if they can't afford it? They can do the work themselves. Otherwise it equates to business welfare. The welfare of taking from their laborers wages for their own profits. What minimum wage does, is state the value of a person's time. If you take someone's time to do YOUR work, you have to pay the minimum. Otherwise, DO IT YOURSELF! This is protecting the weak. If you can't afford to pay people the value of their time, then you can't afford to operate your business. Go to work for someone else then until you either figure out your business model, or you can afford to pay someone else to do YOUR work.
This statement was never false.
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Christian Graus wrote:
So, in your view, the poor, along with the disabled, should be what ? Shot ? Sent to the gulag ? You apparently don't think society should be protecting those who cannot protect themselves ?
No, in my view the poor should be given opportunity by allowing the markets the greatest possible level of freedom. In such an evnviroment, everyone will make far more, and have far more opportunity to end their poverty, than they would in a more regulated society. It is your philosophy which hurts the poor, not mine. You do not have the moral high ground on this issue. I do. I want to end poverty, by increasing freedom, you want to make it a bit more comfortable by increasing tyranny.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
Total and utter bullshit. Coming from a single mother I had to work young. If I had been paid a decent wage for the jobs available to me, I would have been able to get out of poverty earlier. And been more successful and contributed more to the economy. I think your too far removed from reality and soaking in rhetoric that is 30 years old. Get over it. You're a commie, you're leftist... all of this dualistic extreme labeling is rediculous. If only the world would agree to limit themselves to one extreme.
This statement was never false.
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Stan, you seem unable to understand that not everyone is equally able to take those opportunities. $10,000 a year is hardly a living wage, but a minimum wage does guarentee that people who are working, are making enough to scrap by, while they wait for ( or hopefully seek ) better opportunities. Face it, the bulk of people you're denying the money to live, aren't going to look for better jobs, they are going to steal your car.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Or how about the fact that there aren't enough high paying jobs for the population. There just isn't. Just about every business depends on paying people less.
This statement was never false.
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Christian Graus wrote:
OK, so your core argument is, if you exploit someone sufficiently, they'll get sick of poverty and become a brain surgeon ?
Yes, percisely. The typical human does not like being exploited, and if given sufficient freedom will tendto avoid it. That is why I don't like the government forcing us to pay minimum wage - thats exploitation of me by the government.
Christian Graus wrote:
No-one has any person issues which prevent them from making more than minimum wage, whatever that is ? And, if minimum wage is $5 an hour, that's $10, 000 a year. You claim that someone making $200 a week lives in a paradise beyond compare, and would never hope to aspire to anything more ?
Of course not, which is why jobs that actually pay minimum wage are rare. and proof of why it should simply be eliminated.
Christian Graus wrote:
Surely no-one gets this brainwashed just by watching TV ?
I was brainwashed by my parents, by reading Jefferson, and living my life as an American - and by observing the dysfunctionality of economies in direct proportion to how committed they are to Marxism.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
Stan Shannon wrote:
Yes, percisely. The typical human does not like being exploited, and if given sufficient freedom will tendto avoid it. That is why I don't like the government forcing us to pay minimum wage - thats exploitation of me by the government.
Exploitation by Government = Bad Exploitation by Business = Good Funny, what you call exploitation by the Govt, is in fact aiming to prevent exploitation by Business. Exactly what Govt should be doing.
This statement was never false.
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Tyranny is any act of government which requires me to act in some way other than I freely choose to act.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
Then laws concerning murder are also tyrannical? They surely limit how you may freely choose to act. In fact, laws concerning restricting abortion, gay marriage, drugs, and the rest are also in fact, tyrannical by your definition. Interesting. I like where this is headed. Hedonism is on the way once we get rid of tyranny.
This statement was never false.
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All of which indicates your complete misunderstanding of Jeffersonian democracy.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
And also your complete misunderstanding of tyranny.
This statement was never false.
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Then laws concerning murder are also tyrannical? They surely limit how you may freely choose to act. In fact, laws concerning restricting abortion, gay marriage, drugs, and the rest are also in fact, tyrannical by your definition. Interesting. I like where this is headed. Hedonism is on the way once we get rid of tyranny.
This statement was never false.
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
Then laws concerning murder are also tyrannical?
They are to murderers.
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
In fact, laws concerning restricting abortion, gay marriage, drugs, and the rest are also in fact, tyrannical by your definition.
Yes.
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
Interesting. I like where this is headed. Hedonism is on the way once we get rid of tyranny.
Well, not quite, hedonism would lead to anarchy, which, if anything, is the most complete formof tyranny. You cannot escape tyranny - that is the entire point of Jeffersonianism.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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And also your complete misunderstanding of tyranny.
This statement was never false.
I'm not the one who misunderstands it. Tyranny is an absolute. How you manage it is the only variable.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about