Programmers and Careful, Rigourous Logic
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Each and every one of us is colored by prejudice and bias and, no matter how hard we try, everything we say or do is, in turn, tarnished with those views. Just by dint of being programmers does not make us less inclined to have personal foibles and idiotic beliefs. The problem that has arisen here in the last few days is one of social relationships in that one member of the pack has pissed off everyone else and won't give in. If we were all together physically that person would either have to leave or, eventually, be forced out (not necessarily in a physical manner). I think, for this person, they just went a little too far and there comes a point where it does not even matter if he is right or wrong. In a democracy right or wrong is, largely, irrelevant. It's the will of the majority that becomes right and that is what will prevail. Digressing slightly this is also one of the ills of western society in that we are allowing minorities to dictate what we should and shouldn't do and the majority find themselves disenfranchised.
Well as Einstein said "Common Sense is just a collection of prejudices collected by the age of 18"
Kind Regards, Gary
My Website || My Blog || My Articles
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Well as Einstein said "Common Sense is just a collection of prejudices collected by the age of 18"
Kind Regards, Gary
My Website || My Blog || My Articles
I would disagree: common sense would preclude prejudice.
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I would disagree: common sense would preclude prejudice.
Intresting! common sense –noun sound practical judgment that is independent of specialized knowledge, training, or the like; normal native intelligence.
Kind Regards, Gary
My Website || My Blog || My Articles
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While patiently informing a fellow member regarding proper Soapbox etiquette, Chris managed to include both of the following phrases in his post:
Chris Maunder wrote:
This is a programming site... do not expect careful, rigourous logic [^].
Oh, the irony! Nevertheless, I think Chris is right on both counts; the state of affairs has baffled me from the start. How does one manage to be a careful and rigourously logical programmer eight or more hours a day, and not have those habits dominate the other areas of his life as well? Are these schizophrenics good programmers but bad philosophers? or are they consistent personalities, and simply bad at both?
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Why? Are we less subject to being prejudiced or stoopid just because our job/training demands a rigourous and logical approach? Evidence the posts in this forum: do most of these read like they were put together with a logical mind denuded of any prejudice because we are lofty mortals? Hardly and I very much include myself in that: I am as prejudiced and biased as the next jerk.
digital man wrote:
Are we less subject to being prejudiced or stoopid just because our job/training demands a rigourous and logical approach?
Hardly. Though I do find myself looking at social situations differently now that my young mind is getting adjusted to "rigourous and logical" thinking. I find myself analyzing the situation as a programmer would, but I still definately manage to be prejudiced. ;P
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
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Each and every one of us is colored by prejudice and bias and, no matter how hard we try, everything we say or do is, in turn, tarnished with those views. Just by dint of being programmers does not make us less inclined to have personal foibles and idiotic beliefs. The problem that has arisen here in the last few days is one of social relationships in that one member of the pack has pissed off everyone else and won't give in. If we were all together physically that person would either have to leave or, eventually, be forced out (not necessarily in a physical manner). I think, for this person, they just went a little too far and there comes a point where it does not even matter if he is right or wrong. In a democracy right or wrong is, largely, irrelevant. It's the will of the majority that becomes right and that is what will prevail. Digressing slightly this is also one of the ills of western society in that we are allowing minorities to dictate what we should and shouldn't do and the majority find themselves disenfranchised.
digital man wrote:
one member of the pack has pissed off everyone else and won't give in
That actually sounds more like me than anyone else...
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
digital man wrote:
Each and every one of us is colored by prejudice and bias and, no matter how hard we try, everything we say or do is, in turn, tarnished with those views.
Agreed. But wouldn't one expect significantly less of that sort of thing among programmers - who are forced to think precisely and logically to accomplish their work - than, say, teenagers on MySpace.com?
The Grand Negus wrote:
among programmers - who are forced to think precisely and logically to accomplish their work
Forced how by who/what? Most of the programmers I have worked with do NOT reflect that comment. As for my own efforts try as I might to do just that, I invariably make mistakes and am wrong.
led mike
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The Grand Negus wrote:
among programmers - who are forced to think precisely and logically to accomplish their work
Forced how by who/what? Most of the programmers I have worked with do NOT reflect that comment. As for my own efforts try as I might to do just that, I invariably make mistakes and am wrong.
led mike
led mike wrote:
Forced how by who/what?
For one thing, their compiler - do it right or it won't run. For another, the literal nature of the machine - do it right or you'll get the wrong results. I would think, having gotten used to that kind of rigourous activity, the habit would spill over into other parts of the person's life. One young guy, above, said exactly that - he noticed programmer-type thought processes being applied more broadly to his thinking.
led mike wrote:
Most of the programmers I have worked with do NOT reflect that comment.
Then they're in my second group: bad philosophers and bad programmers. But not schizophrenic.
led mike wrote:
As for my own efforts try as I might to do just that, I invariably make mistakes and am wrong.
Well of course; we all do. But it's (hopefully) on an exception basis. It's the person who can consistently and doggedly maintain an irrational position in the Soapbox and yet write clear and precise code the rest of the day that I find curious. In my view, such a one must be either schizophrenic to some degree, or a fraud (ie, not really a good programmer at all). I suspect it's more often the latter - I know I'd be reluctant to hire such a one to develop a system for me.
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led mike wrote:
Forced how by who/what?
For one thing, their compiler - do it right or it won't run. For another, the literal nature of the machine - do it right or you'll get the wrong results. I would think, having gotten used to that kind of rigourous activity, the habit would spill over into other parts of the person's life. One young guy, above, said exactly that - he noticed programmer-type thought processes being applied more broadly to his thinking.
led mike wrote:
Most of the programmers I have worked with do NOT reflect that comment.
Then they're in my second group: bad philosophers and bad programmers. But not schizophrenic.
led mike wrote:
As for my own efforts try as I might to do just that, I invariably make mistakes and am wrong.
Well of course; we all do. But it's (hopefully) on an exception basis. It's the person who can consistently and doggedly maintain an irrational position in the Soapbox and yet write clear and precise code the rest of the day that I find curious. In my view, such a one must be either schizophrenic to some degree, or a fraud (ie, not really a good programmer at all). I suspect it's more often the latter - I know I'd be reluctant to hire such a one to develop a system for me.
The Grand Negus wrote:
For one thing, their compiler
Ok well the compiler forces you to use syntax precisely but does not enforce logic, nor does it enforce that your analysis is precise or that your conclusions are logical. Basically using the "compiler" to support your statement doesn't float.
The Grand Negus wrote:
It's the person who can consistently and doggedly maintain an irrational position in the Soapbox and yet write clear and precise code the rest of the day that I find curious.
What's with all the focus on "writing code"? Of all the required activities and skills of a Software Developer, writing code is probably the least significant and easiest.
The Grand Negus wrote:
But it's (hopefully) on an exception basis.
True. That is what I meant.
led mike
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Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
But, by taking them out of context and placing them side by side you've significantly changed the meaning.
I included the link to the original so readers could make that determination for themselves. But I think my edited version goes to the heart of the matter. Chris (in my view) is saying, "Expect careful and rigourous logic regarding program code on this site, but not regarding other matters." Which is exactly what I've observed, and what I'm asking about.
But shouldn't the author's original structure be respected? ;)
This statement was never false.
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But shouldn't the author's original structure be respected? ;)
This statement was never false.
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While patiently informing a fellow member regarding proper Soapbox etiquette, Chris managed to include both of the following phrases in his post:
Chris Maunder wrote:
This is a programming site... do not expect careful, rigourous logic [^].
Oh, the irony! Nevertheless, I think Chris is right on both counts; the state of affairs has baffled me from the start. How does one manage to be a careful and rigourously logical programmer eight or more hours a day, and not have those habits dominate the other areas of his life as well? Are these schizophrenics good programmers but bad philosophers? or are they consistent personalities, and simply bad at both?
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Hey, I apologize. I was able to see the person, and not the subject. And at the heat of the situation, I thought you were in support of Ilion who created a lot of chaos. In fact, at a later time when I read it all carefully, I felt bad. I had a stereotypic observation about you. Anyway, I hope you would agree on the part that you worked your way to earn bad reputation (Knowingly or unknowingly) while beginning here at CodeProject. Have a nice day. PS: How do I pronounce your name? First part is ok, but Rzeppa? How do I pronounce it?
Nobody can give you wiser advice than yourself. - Cicero