Questions for those who know
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Because a) the stuck their thumb outside and went 'hmm - the universe is slightly warm, and it's warm everywhere'. The universe is slowly cooling, so if it's X degrees now, then it was Y degrees such and such a time ago. b) The universe is expanding. If everything is expanding then it means at one point everything was closer together. c) scientists have really, really big telescopes. Light travels at a constant velocity so they can see back in time. 15 billion is as far as they can see back. Put '15 billion' in equations (a) and (b) and you get a very, very big bang. cheers, Chris Maunder
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Ignorant wrote: Why do scientists believe the unvierse was created from a huge explosion about 15 billion years ago? What proof do they have? Why should we believe the scientists? Did anybody really see that explosion? Why do you believe that there is an invisible man (or woman) in the sky who, with the stroke of his/her hand, created the entire universe? What proof do you have? Why should I believe you? Have you ever seen God? ;P IMO (notice: just an opinion), it's pointless to argue over such matters, though I do admit the origin of life does fascinate me. Until hard proof is offered from either side, there is no way to know what happened. All you can do is have faith that your POV is the correct POV. Jon Sagara "These rules could get someone killed, but they're good for academic use." -- one of my professors.
Jon Sagara wrote: Until hard proof is offered from either side, there is no way to know what happened. All you can do is have faith that your POV is the correct POV. Me think it's a very wise POV, maybe the wisest :) Jon Sagara wrote: IMO (notice: just an opinion), it's pointless to argue over such matters, though I do admit the origin of life does fascinate me. It isn't for argument sake, just to see what POVs people have so that I could learn something. Jon Sagara wrote: Until hard proof is offered from either side, there is no way to know what happened. All you can do is have faith that your POV is the correct POV. Me think it's a very wise POV, maybe the wisest,IMO :)
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Chris Maunder wrote: Light travels at a constant velocity mmm, Learn something new every day ! Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
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...in a vacuum, according to all measurements taken to date yada yada yada... cheers, Chris Maunder
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...in a vacuum, according to all measurements taken to date yada yada yada... cheers, Chris Maunder
Chris Maunder wrote: ...in a vacuum, according to all measurements taken to date yada yada yada... Ok, It actually made me think a bit. Because if that was the method for calculating the Big-Bang's occurence, then what were the forces on the light at the time. I'm sure the singularity of origin had immense gravitational forces, and whether light could have actually escaped faster than matter I don't know. {anyone got Stephen Hawkings email?:-) } So I wondered how accurate that reasonong was. Also you mentioned the Universe is expanding ~ but isn't that only from our observational point we see this as the cosmos stretches to far for us to really know. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
More about me :-)
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Chris Maunder wrote: ...in a vacuum, according to all measurements taken to date yada yada yada... Ok, It actually made me think a bit. Because if that was the method for calculating the Big-Bang's occurence, then what were the forces on the light at the time. I'm sure the singularity of origin had immense gravitational forces, and whether light could have actually escaped faster than matter I don't know. {anyone got Stephen Hawkings email?:-) } So I wondered how accurate that reasonong was. Also you mentioned the Universe is expanding ~ but isn't that only from our observational point we see this as the cosmos stretches to far for us to really know. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
More about me :-)
Scott Adams in one of his books provides a fascinating alternative theory to the Big Bang, as a thought exercise. All he wanted to prove is that it's very arrogant for us to believe we've discovered everything fundamentally worth discovering, and that all previous generations who thought the same thing were wrong. Not surprisingly, he got misunderstood and subsequently flamed to death.... Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
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Why do scientists believe the unvierse was created from a huge explosion about 15 billion years ago? What proof do they have? Why should we believe the scientists? Did anybody really see that explosion? Why can't it be that God created the Univ. first, set it in motion and then built the laws of physics into it so that it would appear everything originated from a big bang? Is this the right forum to ask these questions or should it be the operating systems/sys admin forum? :confused:
Ignorant wrote: Is this the right forum to ask these questions or should it be the operating systems/sys admin forum? LOL !!!! I believe in God, I don't believe in evolution. I also believe in the big bang, and that the earth is more than 6,000 years old. Reading the Bible without making assumptions does not contradict these things. I don't think God created the world and set things in motion so that physical evidence would trick us. I'd actually kind of hate to live in a world created by a God who set out to fool and confuse people..... Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
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Hello Ignorant. Ignorant wrote: What proof do they have? You can still here the background echo of the explosion on a radio telescope if you tune in at the same frequency that it was calculated at. Ignorant wrote: Why should we believe the scientists? Its up to you to make up your own mind, I bet nobody is holding a gun to your head. Ignorant wrote: Did anybody really see that explosion? We haven't been around for that long, and there was quite likly two big bangs explosions, to explain the amount of heavy metals we have today. Ignorant wrote: Why can't it be that God created the Univ. first, set it in motion and then built the laws of physics into it so that it would appear everything originated from a big bang? Did God create the Big Bang, or did The Big Bang create God. Or were they created concurrently ? I think the jury is still out on this one. :-) Ignorant wrote: Is this the right forum to ask these questions or should it be the operating systems/sys admin forum? Maybe you should have asked in the astronomy forum, that hasn't yet been created due to irregularities in the timeline. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
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****Colin Davies wrote: Did God create the Big Bang, or did The Big Bang create God. Or were they created concurrently ? can imagine God creating the Big Bang and Big Bang creating the God. But concurrently? Maybe an impartial jury would decide on that answer to satisfy both sides:) ****Colin Davies wrote: Maybe you should have asked in the astronomy forum, that hasn't yet been created due to irregularities in the timeline. irregualrities created by religion?;)
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Chris Maunder wrote: ...in a vacuum, according to all measurements taken to date yada yada yada... Ok, It actually made me think a bit. Because if that was the method for calculating the Big-Bang's occurence, then what were the forces on the light at the time. I'm sure the singularity of origin had immense gravitational forces, and whether light could have actually escaped faster than matter I don't know. {anyone got Stephen Hawkings email?:-) } So I wondered how accurate that reasonong was. Also you mentioned the Universe is expanding ~ but isn't that only from our observational point we see this as the cosmos stretches to far for us to really know. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
More about me :-)
What I said was a massive simplification, and you're right: the gravitational forces would have battled against the expansion and won. The trick here is to then introduce an inflationary stage whereby the universe itself expands at a rate faster than light. It's not the bits that make up the universe that expand, but the underlying space-time itself. 'Honey, I shrunk the Universe' in reverse. Things quickly settle down and the universe now has a head start on gravity and away we go. The point here is that none of us have ever experienced anything vaguely like this in our everyday, intuitive lives. Throwing in an 'inflationary' stage may seem like a magical cop-out, but then again Quantum mechanics is totally non-inuitive too, and not only is the theory sound but so is the practice. Anyway, I can see another huge Cosmology thread happening here and unfortunately I've got a big, big day of work ahead, so I'm gonna have to walk away from this one. cheers, Chris Maunder
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Ignorant wrote: Is this the right forum to ask these questions or should it be the operating systems/sys admin forum? LOL !!!! I believe in God, I don't believe in evolution. I also believe in the big bang, and that the earth is more than 6,000 years old. Reading the Bible without making assumptions does not contradict these things. I don't think God created the world and set things in motion so that physical evidence would trick us. I'd actually kind of hate to live in a world created by a God who set out to fool and confuse people..... Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
Christian Graus wrote: I don't think God created the world and set things in motion so that physical evidence would trick us. I'd actually kind of hate to live in a world created by a God who set out to fool and confuse people..... It isn't to say that God tried to trick us. But people have the knack of getting confused in most creative ways:)
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Ignorant wrote: Is this the right forum to ask these questions or should it be the operating systems/sys admin forum? LOL !!!! I believe in God, I don't believe in evolution. I also believe in the big bang, and that the earth is more than 6,000 years old. Reading the Bible without making assumptions does not contradict these things. I don't think God created the world and set things in motion so that physical evidence would trick us. I'd actually kind of hate to live in a world created by a God who set out to fool and confuse people..... Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
Christian Graus wrote: I'd actually kind of hate to live in a world created by a God who set out to fool and confuse people..... But he does :-( Mathew 13 :: 10-14 13:10 Then the disciples came to him and said, "Why do you speak to them in parables?" 13:11 He replied, "You have been given the opportunity to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but they have not. 13:12 For whoever has will be given more, and will have an abundance. But whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13:13 For this reason I speak to them in parables: although they see they do not see, and although they hear they do not hear nor do they understand. 13:14 And concerning them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: 'You will listen carefully yet will never understand, you will look closely yet will never comprehend. :-) So can you understand Christian ? Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
More about me :-)
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****Colin Davies wrote: Did God create the Big Bang, or did The Big Bang create God. Or were they created concurrently ? can imagine God creating the Big Bang and Big Bang creating the God. But concurrently? Maybe an impartial jury would decide on that answer to satisfy both sides:) ****Colin Davies wrote: Maybe you should have asked in the astronomy forum, that hasn't yet been created due to irregularities in the timeline. irregualrities created by religion?;)
Ok If you can imagine an instance, Like a blank worksheet whaere there was nothing, not even the presence of a Vaccum or similar, and not even time, Then the meaning of concurrently is not how we know it now to be. Ignorant wrote: irregualrities created by religion? No I think the timeline has been mangled. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
More about me :-)
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What I said was a massive simplification, and you're right: the gravitational forces would have battled against the expansion and won. The trick here is to then introduce an inflationary stage whereby the universe itself expands at a rate faster than light. It's not the bits that make up the universe that expand, but the underlying space-time itself. 'Honey, I shrunk the Universe' in reverse. Things quickly settle down and the universe now has a head start on gravity and away we go. The point here is that none of us have ever experienced anything vaguely like this in our everyday, intuitive lives. Throwing in an 'inflationary' stage may seem like a magical cop-out, but then again Quantum mechanics is totally non-inuitive too, and not only is the theory sound but so is the practice. Anyway, I can see another huge Cosmology thread happening here and unfortunately I've got a big, big day of work ahead, so I'm gonna have to walk away from this one. cheers, Chris Maunder
Chris Maunder wrote: Anyway, I can see another huge Cosmology thread happening here and unfortunately I've got a big, big day of work ahead, so I'm gonna have to walk away from this one. What a shame :-( Yes your "inflationary stage" seems sensible to me. However where I see difficulty is light superceding the limits of the Universe (if we consider it finite and the etxterior not a vaccum) What I'm really trying to articulate though Chris is that I'm not going to be greatly surprised oneday if someone of authority states, "The Universe is 42 Billion years old", because I can easily imagine that some of the current thoughts are way off track. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
More about me :-)
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Christian Graus wrote: I don't think God created the world and set things in motion so that physical evidence would trick us. I'd actually kind of hate to live in a world created by a God who set out to fool and confuse people..... It isn't to say that God tried to trick us. But people have the knack of getting confused in most creative ways:)
Ignorant wrote: But people have the knack of getting confused in most creative ways So correct, God tells us something in scriptures and we try to read other interpretations into it. From Exodus: Thou shalt not steal ! Now how many ways can that be interpreted. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
More about me :-)
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Christian Graus wrote: I'd actually kind of hate to live in a world created by a God who set out to fool and confuse people..... But he does :-( Mathew 13 :: 10-14 13:10 Then the disciples came to him and said, "Why do you speak to them in parables?" 13:11 He replied, "You have been given the opportunity to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but they have not. 13:12 For whoever has will be given more, and will have an abundance. But whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13:13 For this reason I speak to them in parables: although they see they do not see, and although they hear they do not hear nor do they understand. 13:14 And concerning them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: 'You will listen carefully yet will never understand, you will look closely yet will never comprehend. :-) So can you understand Christian ? Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
More about me :-)
****Colin Davies wrote: So can you understand Christian ? Actually, the problem was not that God was hiding things, although they were hidden in parables, but that the things of God are 'Spiritually discerned'. ****Colin Davies wrote: For whoever has will be given more, and will have an abundance. But whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. Those who have a little ( they have read the Bible and tried to understand it ), will lose what they have, and those who have a lot ( who have obeyed the Gospel and have both recieved and walked in the Spirit ), will inherit all things. I read the Bible for years before I became a Christian, and only after recieving the Holy Spirit with evidence was I able to understand it. But just like the people who Jesus spoke to, the message always impressed me, even if I could not make sense of it. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
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****Colin Davies wrote: So can you understand Christian ? Actually, the problem was not that God was hiding things, although they were hidden in parables, but that the things of God are 'Spiritually discerned'. ****Colin Davies wrote: For whoever has will be given more, and will have an abundance. But whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. Those who have a little ( they have read the Bible and tried to understand it ), will lose what they have, and those who have a lot ( who have obeyed the Gospel and have both recieved and walked in the Spirit ), will inherit all things. I read the Bible for years before I became a Christian, and only after recieving the Holy Spirit with evidence was I able to understand it. But just like the people who Jesus spoke to, the message always impressed me, even if I could not make sense of it. Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
Christian Graus wrote: Actually, the problem was not that God was hiding things, although they were hidden in parables, but that the things of God are 'Spiritually discerned'. I think it appears we disagree, I'm sure it shows that God doesn't wish to allow just anyone to have knowledge of the Truth, and wants to keep it exclusive to those who take the time to find out. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
More about me :-)
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Because a) the stuck their thumb outside and went 'hmm - the universe is slightly warm, and it's warm everywhere'. The universe is slowly cooling, so if it's X degrees now, then it was Y degrees such and such a time ago. b) The universe is expanding. If everything is expanding then it means at one point everything was closer together. c) scientists have really, really big telescopes. Light travels at a constant velocity so they can see back in time. 15 billion is as far as they can see back. Put '15 billion' in equations (a) and (b) and you get a very, very big bang. cheers, Chris Maunder
Chris Maunder wrote: Because a) the stuck their thumb outside and went 'hmm - the universe is slightly warm, and it's warm everywhere'. The universe is slowly cooling, so if it's X degrees now, then it was Y degrees such and such a time ago. b) The universe is expanding. If everything is expanding then it means at one point everything was closer together. c) scientists have really, really big telescopes. Light travels at a constant velocity so they can see back in time. 15 billion is as far as they can see back. Put '15 billion' in equations (a) and (b) and you get a very, very big bang. BRILLIANT Chris, absolutely Brilliant!!! I never saw it put as simple and concise as that. Cool! :cool: :cool: :cool:
Regards, Nish Native CPian. Born and brought up on CP. With the CP blood in him.
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Ignorant wrote: Is this the right forum to ask these questions or should it be the operating systems/sys admin forum? LOL !!!! I believe in God, I don't believe in evolution. I also believe in the big bang, and that the earth is more than 6,000 years old. Reading the Bible without making assumptions does not contradict these things. I don't think God created the world and set things in motion so that physical evidence would trick us. I'd actually kind of hate to live in a world created by a God who set out to fool and confuse people..... Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
Christian Graus wrote: I don't think God created the world and set things in motion so that physical evidence would trick us. I'd actually kind of hate to live in a world created by a God who set out to fool and confuse people..... That's cool. *If* there was a god then it sure wouldn't be one that'd make the earth like it is now :-) Nish
Regards, Nish Native CPian. Born and brought up on CP. With the CP blood in him.
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Ignorant wrote: But people have the knack of getting confused in most creative ways So correct, God tells us something in scriptures and we try to read other interpretations into it. From Exodus: Thou shalt not steal ! Now how many ways can that be interpreted. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
More about me :-)
****Colin Davies wrote: From Exodus: What's that? Pre-Bible ??? Nish
Regards, Nish Native CPian. Born and brought up on CP. With the CP blood in him.
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Christian Graus wrote: Actually, the problem was not that God was hiding things, although they were hidden in parables, but that the things of God are 'Spiritually discerned'. I think it appears we disagree, I'm sure it shows that God doesn't wish to allow just anyone to have knowledge of the Truth, and wants to keep it exclusive to those who take the time to find out. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
More about me :-)
You think God is hiding from people ? :confused: Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002
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****Colin Davies wrote: From Exodus: What's that? Pre-Bible ??? Nish
Regards, Nish Native CPian. Born and brought up on CP. With the CP blood in him.
The second book of the Old Testament, it principally tells of the Exodus out of Egypt and into the promised land. Or so I seem to recall :-) Christian The tragedy of cyberspace - that so much can travel so far, and yet mean so little. And you don't spend much time with the opposite sex working day and night, unless the pizza delivery person happens to be young, cute, single and female. I can assure you, I've consumed more than a programmer's allotment of pizza, and these conditions have never aligned. - Christopher Duncan - 18/04/2002