Hate Crime
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For those that prefer a site better equiped to handle hoaxes[^]: "However, the notion that every major news outlet in the U.S. (all of them competitive, profit-making businesses) has conspired to ignore what would otherwise be a compelling national story is rather implausible..."
'My country, right or wrong' is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying 'My mother, drunk or sober.'
GK Chesterton -
Stan Shannon wrote:
does anyone doubt that it would be in all the news as a vicious hate crime, and an indictment of our entire society?
Not a doubt in my mind. The concept of a 'hate crime' makes no sense to me.
Cheers,
Patrick
In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!!
Homer Simpson
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Stan Shannon wrote:
does anyone doubt that it would be in all the news as a vicious hate crime, and an indictment of our entire society?
Not a doubt in my mind. The concept of a 'hate crime' makes no sense to me.
Cheers,
Patrick
In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!!
Homer Simpson
I have to agree. It's like the South Park episode. While certain ethnic groups, homosexuals, racial groups, etc may 'targeted' more than a white heterosexual male, I think all crimes are hate crimes. Murder is murder.
__________________ Bob is my homeboy.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
does anyone doubt that it would be in all the news as a vicious hate crime, and an indictment of our entire society?
Not a doubt in my mind. The concept of a 'hate crime' makes no sense to me.
Cheers,
Patrick
In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!!
Homer Simpson
Patrick Sears wrote:
The concept of a 'hate crime' makes no sense to me
Nor me. I don't believe I've ever heard of the murder of a white person referred to as a 'hate crime' regardless of how obvious it was that race played a major role in both the crime as well as the level of violence used. Murder is murder, regardless of the emotions motivating it, and they should all be treated the same.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Stan Shannon wrote:
If five white thugs had done this[^]to a black couple, does anyone doubt that it would be in all the news as a vicious hate crime, and an indictment of our entire society?
Yeah, I doubt it. (It was, of course, a hate crime in the ordinary sense of the word, but I take it you are referring to a racially motivated hate crime.)
Police Chief Sterling Owen IV said that there is no indication the crimes were racially motivated, and that the murders and assault "appears to have been a random violent act." The parents of Channon Christian also do not believe the crime was racially motivated. The father of Chris Newsom said he didn't believe the murders started out as race-motivated crimes. "I don't think it started out that way but from all indications we have, it developed into that," Hugh Newsom said.
So neither the police nor the parents of one of the victims think there was a racial motivation. A parent of the other victim thinks it didn't start that way, but turned into that --- though just how one's motivations can become racist partway through is unclear. So yes, I do doubt that the murders would be characterised as a racially motivated hate crime if the races were reversed. Incidentally, you will be pleased to know that the locals are apparently using the murders to make broader points about racial questions:
Theories about whether this was a racial crime have also crept into the Newsom's minds. "Like Mary said I don't think it started out that way but from all indications we have, it developed into that," Hugh said. But the Newsom's don't like hate groups using Chris and Channon's tragedy for their agenda. "He was not a racist and we're not, we're not racist," Hugh said. "He would want no part of that. I don't like that they're using their names for their rallys, their protests or whatever," Mary explained.
http://www.wbir.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=45445&provider=gnews[^]
John Carson
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Stan Shannon wrote:
If five white thugs had done this[^]to a black couple, does anyone doubt that it would be in all the news as a vicious hate crime, and an indictment of our entire society?
Yeah, I doubt it. (It was, of course, a hate crime in the ordinary sense of the word, but I take it you are referring to a racially motivated hate crime.)
Police Chief Sterling Owen IV said that there is no indication the crimes were racially motivated, and that the murders and assault "appears to have been a random violent act." The parents of Channon Christian also do not believe the crime was racially motivated. The father of Chris Newsom said he didn't believe the murders started out as race-motivated crimes. "I don't think it started out that way but from all indications we have, it developed into that," Hugh Newsom said.
So neither the police nor the parents of one of the victims think there was a racial motivation. A parent of the other victim thinks it didn't start that way, but turned into that --- though just how one's motivations can become racist partway through is unclear. So yes, I do doubt that the murders would be characterised as a racially motivated hate crime if the races were reversed. Incidentally, you will be pleased to know that the locals are apparently using the murders to make broader points about racial questions:
Theories about whether this was a racial crime have also crept into the Newsom's minds. "Like Mary said I don't think it started out that way but from all indications we have, it developed into that," Hugh said. But the Newsom's don't like hate groups using Chris and Channon's tragedy for their agenda. "He was not a racist and we're not, we're not racist," Hugh said. "He would want no part of that. I don't like that they're using their names for their rallys, their protests or whatever," Mary explained.
http://www.wbir.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=45445&provider=gnews[^]
John Carson
John Carson wrote:
But the Newsom's don't like hate groups using Chris and Channon's tragedy for their agenda.
So the real story, as usual, is white hate groups. OK, got it. Wow, that didn't take long.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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John Carson wrote:
But the Newsom's don't like hate groups using Chris and Channon's tragedy for their agenda.
So the real story, as usual, is white hate groups. OK, got it. Wow, that didn't take long.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
Stan Shannon wrote:
So the real story, as usual, is white hate groups.
The central story is two truly shocking murders. Your post, however, was not about that, so it is a little late to run that line. Your point was about the alleged asymmetry in people's response to black vs white crime. I was merely suggesting that there is a little more symmetry to it than you imagine.
John Carson
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http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm
The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. - John Adams
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Stan Shannon wrote:
If five white thugs had done this[^]to a black couple, does anyone doubt that it would be in all the news as a vicious hate crime, and an indictment of our entire society?
Yeah thats fucked up isn't it?
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Stan Shannon wrote:
So the real story, as usual, is white hate groups.
The central story is two truly shocking murders. Your post, however, was not about that, so it is a little late to run that line. Your point was about the alleged asymmetry in people's response to black vs white crime. I was merely suggesting that there is a little more symmetry to it than you imagine.
John Carson
The point is that if this had been white on black crime, the prosecution would certainly have used hate as a means of increasing the possible penalties against the perps. It almost always gets thrown into the mix in such cases. At the very least they would have tried to make it stick. The press would have picked up on those charges and ran with it, because thats their script and they are sticking to it. But, because charging blacks with similar hate crimes would tend to promote the agenda of the four guys in a trailer park in Mississippi who comprise the modern KKK/Nazi/Whatever hate "groups", they will never even try to use it in cases like this. It would just make the legal system look all "racist" and everything. That is precisely why hate crime laws are such a very sad joke.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
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Stan Shannon wrote:
If five white thugs had done this[^]to a black couple, does anyone doubt that it would be in all the news as a vicious hate crime, and an indictment of our entire society?
Yeah, I doubt it. (It was, of course, a hate crime in the ordinary sense of the word, but I take it you are referring to a racially motivated hate crime.)
Police Chief Sterling Owen IV said that there is no indication the crimes were racially motivated, and that the murders and assault "appears to have been a random violent act." The parents of Channon Christian also do not believe the crime was racially motivated. The father of Chris Newsom said he didn't believe the murders started out as race-motivated crimes. "I don't think it started out that way but from all indications we have, it developed into that," Hugh Newsom said.
So neither the police nor the parents of one of the victims think there was a racial motivation. A parent of the other victim thinks it didn't start that way, but turned into that --- though just how one's motivations can become racist partway through is unclear. So yes, I do doubt that the murders would be characterised as a racially motivated hate crime if the races were reversed. Incidentally, you will be pleased to know that the locals are apparently using the murders to make broader points about racial questions:
Theories about whether this was a racial crime have also crept into the Newsom's minds. "Like Mary said I don't think it started out that way but from all indications we have, it developed into that," Hugh said. But the Newsom's don't like hate groups using Chris and Channon's tragedy for their agenda. "He was not a racist and we're not, we're not racist," Hugh said. "He would want no part of that. I don't like that they're using their names for their rallys, their protests or whatever," Mary explained.
http://www.wbir.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=45445&provider=gnews[^]
John Carson
John Carson wrote:
though just how one's motivations can become racist partway through is unclear.
One would imagine the guy starting to yell something racist as he was being attacked, and that just making the attackers more mad.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Patrick Sears wrote:
The concept of a 'hate crime' makes no sense to me
Nor me. I don't believe I've ever heard of the murder of a white person referred to as a 'hate crime' regardless of how obvious it was that race played a major role in both the crime as well as the level of violence used. Murder is murder, regardless of the emotions motivating it, and they should all be treated the same.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
My thinking exactly. I typed out something trying to say exactly that but it didn't sound right. Yours sounds much better.
Cheers,
Patrick
In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!!
Homer Simpson
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Frankly, I'm shocked that it's not being blown up in the direction that it's gone. I mean, I've seen US television. Either way, the color of the victims and/or the attackers, does nothing to change the shocking nature of the crime.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm
The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. - John Adams
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John Carson wrote:
though just how one's motivations can become racist partway through is unclear.
One would imagine the guy starting to yell something racist as he was being attacked, and that just making the attackers more mad.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
One would imagine the guy starting to yell something racist as he was being attacked, and that just making the attackers more mad.
Good point. However, that sort is scenario is not what one would ordinarily think of as a racially motivated hate crime.
John Carson
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What does it mean by disproportionately represented? They are doing the crimes so they get the most coverage.
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Captain See Sharp wrote:
What does it mean by disproportionately represented?
It means the proportion of crimes they are associated with exceeds their own proportion in the population. Thus they make up x% of the population and commit y% of the crime where y>x.
John Carson
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What does it mean by disproportionately represented? They are doing the crimes so they get the most coverage.
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The point is that if this had been white on black crime, the prosecution would certainly have used hate as a means of increasing the possible penalties against the perps. It almost always gets thrown into the mix in such cases. At the very least they would have tried to make it stick. The press would have picked up on those charges and ran with it, because thats their script and they are sticking to it. But, because charging blacks with similar hate crimes would tend to promote the agenda of the four guys in a trailer park in Mississippi who comprise the modern KKK/Nazi/Whatever hate "groups", they will never even try to use it in cases like this. It would just make the legal system look all "racist" and everything. That is precisely why hate crime laws are such a very sad joke.
Modern liberalism has never achieved anything other than giving Secularists something to feel morally superior about
Stan Shannon wrote:
The point is that if this had been white on black crime, the prosecution would certainly have used hate as a means of increasing the possible penalties against the perps. It almost always gets thrown into the mix in such cases. At the very least they would have tried to make it stick.
I know you prefer anecdotes to statistics, but here is the 2003 FBI report on these matters. http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/03hc.pdf[^] On p. 5 we read: "In 2003, law enforcement reported 4,574 single-bias offenses that were motivated by the offender’s bias against race. Among those offenses, 66.3 percent were perpetrated because of an anti-black bias, and 21.2 percent were due to an anti-white bias. Just over 6 percent (6.1) of racially-motivated hate crimes were driven by an anti-Asian/Pacific Islander bias, 1.8 percent involved a bias against American Indians/Alaskan Natives, and 4.7 percent were directed at groups of individuals in which more than one race was represented (multiple races, group)." And on p. 7: "In 2003, a total of 6,934 known offenders were identified in 7,489 bias-motivated incidents. (See Table 1.) Of the known offenders, 62.3 percent were white and 18.5 percent were black. Groups comprised of individuals of varying races (multiple races, group) accounted for 6.3 percent of known offenders. Reporting agencies identified Asian/Pacific Islander as the race for 1.3 percent and American Indian/Alaskan Native for 0.9 percent of the known offenders. For 10.7 percent of known offenders, the attribute of race was unknown. (Based on Table 9.)" Putting together those two sets statistics suggests that black offenders and white offenders are about equally likely to be accused of hate crimes. <edit> Missing from the above statistics is information on the percentage of crime committed by blacks. Apparently, around 30 percent of people arrested are black. This, in combination with the above figures, suggests that blacks are about 2/3 as likely to be accused of hate crimes as whites. Whether this reflects bias in law enforcement or less racism among blacks than whites is an open question. </edit> <edit2> Actually, the figures show that blacks are accused of more hate crime than their share of the population (13% of the total). On the other hand, they show that blacks are accused of hate