Wanker authors writing wanker books
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idyot wrote:
Clearly this programming is easier than I first thought so therefore I wonder why programmers belive they are worth so much.
Since when does the pay for a task vary directly with the difficulty of said task...? It's all about being willing to do the work... and knowing how to look good while doing it.
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...the wind blows over it and it is gone, and its place remembers it no more...
Well it is generally well known though clearly not on your planet, that the more complex the task is to learn, the less people can do it and therefore the value of the task is increased. These authors in their titles suggest that 24 hours is enough, even worse, in their blurbs they suggest anyone can do it. So all I am saying is that if its so easy then surely this should be reflected in the cost.
Shog9 wrote:
and knowing how to look good while doing it.
Hmm, Remind me never to hire you, I prefer depth of knowledge and skill rather than someone who looks like they know what they are doing to a client who has no real idea. My guess is you end up with an application that looks great but either doesn't work at all or explodes under stress I have to say, most of these replies are surprising to me. I'm a pilot and if someone went around saying they could teach someone to fly a plane properly in 24 hours I would be both surprised and scared at the prospect of being in the same hemisphere! I thought real programmers (of course not the wannabes) would agree
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Christian Graus wrote:
Apparently.
Wow, your ARE a schizo, in another are of the board you take a different view of things. Ill just accept that this mindless comment is just the Canadian part of you coming out.
Christian Graus wrote:
Well, my first ever C++ book was a '24 hours' book, and I knew fully that it was a beginner book, broken into 24 hour long lessons ( well, they took me an average of 20 minutes, but I understood the concept ). I found that book gave me an excellent beginning in c++, I moved on to more complex book and was working as a C++ developer 6 months after buying it.
Given your previous experience I don't doubt it is possible however the "Who should read this book" in the specific book I was referring to clearly states that newbies were who it was aimed at
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idyot wrote:
just the Canadian part of you coming out.
:laugh: Pssssst! He's Australian.
"Part of the inhumanity of the computer is that, once it is competently programmed and working smoothly, it is completely honest." - Isaac Asimov
Yes I know but the Australian in him would never make such a comment and have a completely different response to the same statement in another area of the board. So since he spends half his life in Canada (hence the schizo) I figured that this was just that side coming out of him.
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Well it is generally well known though clearly not on your planet, that the more complex the task is to learn, the less people can do it and therefore the value of the task is increased. These authors in their titles suggest that 24 hours is enough, even worse, in their blurbs they suggest anyone can do it. So all I am saying is that if its so easy then surely this should be reflected in the cost.
Shog9 wrote:
and knowing how to look good while doing it.
Hmm, Remind me never to hire you, I prefer depth of knowledge and skill rather than someone who looks like they know what they are doing to a client who has no real idea. My guess is you end up with an application that looks great but either doesn't work at all or explodes under stress I have to say, most of these replies are surprising to me. I'm a pilot and if someone went around saying they could teach someone to fly a plane properly in 24 hours I would be both surprised and scared at the prospect of being in the same hemisphere! I thought real programmers (of course not the wannabes) would agree
idyot wrote:
These authors in their titles suggest that 24 hours is enough, even worse, in their blurbs they suggest anyone can do it.
And? Given a pliers and a slim instruction booklet, just about anyone can learn to wire up a light switch... but a journeyman electrician can still make a pretty good wage. There's a big difference between learning enough to get by and becoming a professional.
idyot wrote:
My guess is you end up with an application that looks great but either doesn't work at all or explodes under stress
Naw. My apps look good and work well. I happen to think both aspects are important... ;)
idyot wrote:
I'm a pilot and if someone went around saying they could teach someone to fly a plane properly in 24 hours I would be both surprised and scared at the prospect of being in the same hemisphere!
If Jane Neophyte works through her * in 24 hrs book and then makes a few simple mistakes on the payroll app she's writing, no one dies. Money is lost, employees are pissed off, etc... but then, you do get what you pay for... :->
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...the wind blows over it and it is gone, and its place remembers it no more...
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idyot wrote:
These authors in their titles suggest that 24 hours is enough, even worse, in their blurbs they suggest anyone can do it.
And? Given a pliers and a slim instruction booklet, just about anyone can learn to wire up a light switch... but a journeyman electrician can still make a pretty good wage. There's a big difference between learning enough to get by and becoming a professional.
idyot wrote:
My guess is you end up with an application that looks great but either doesn't work at all or explodes under stress
Naw. My apps look good and work well. I happen to think both aspects are important... ;)
idyot wrote:
I'm a pilot and if someone went around saying they could teach someone to fly a plane properly in 24 hours I would be both surprised and scared at the prospect of being in the same hemisphere!
If Jane Neophyte works through her * in 24 hrs book and then makes a few simple mistakes on the payroll app she's writing, no one dies. Money is lost, employees are pissed off, etc... but then, you do get what you pay for... :->
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...the wind blows over it and it is gone, and its place remembers it no more...
Shog9 wrote:
but then, you do get what you pay for...
depends...did she write the Payroll App for the pilots? or worse still for ATC? Yes my original point exactly
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Shog9 wrote:
but then, you do get what you pay for...
depends...did she write the Payroll App for the pilots? or worse still for ATC? Yes my original point exactly
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I aint a programmer but if I was I would be really pissed with these dickheads writing books named "Learn (insert programming language here) in 24 hours" Now of course you'd be even more stupid to buy one of these books expecting to learn this in 24 hours however why aren't real programmers hammering these bloody idiots and stop them from making a craft they have learnt and perfected after years and years sound like its a day job to learn!!!! Its crap and each of these authors should be told to pull their heads in and write something decent or dont write it at all! While I appreciate an expert sharing knowledge, it seems that many of these so called "authors" cant make money from thier programming so resort to writing crappy books and releasing them as ebooks because only the two bit publishers will accept them!
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/4981/newbiepoperc1.jpg
The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. - John Adams
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http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/4981/newbiepoperc1.jpg
The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. - John Adams
hehehe, clearly a wanker also!
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I aint a programmer but if I was I would be really pissed with these dickheads writing books named "Learn (insert programming language here) in 24 hours" Now of course you'd be even more stupid to buy one of these books expecting to learn this in 24 hours however why aren't real programmers hammering these bloody idiots and stop them from making a craft they have learnt and perfected after years and years sound like its a day job to learn!!!! Its crap and each of these authors should be told to pull their heads in and write something decent or dont write it at all! While I appreciate an expert sharing knowledge, it seems that many of these so called "authors" cant make money from thier programming so resort to writing crappy books and releasing them as ebooks because only the two bit publishers will accept them!
Hehe... I blogged about this a while back: http://smoothjazzy.blogspot.com/2006/12/be-programmer-but-not-today.html[^]
"Quality Software since 1983!"
http://www.smoothjazzy.com/ - see the "Programming" section for freeware tools and articles. -
Christian Graus wrote:
Apparently.
Wow, your ARE a schizo, in another are of the board you take a different view of things. Ill just accept that this mindless comment is just the Canadian part of you coming out.
Christian Graus wrote:
Well, my first ever C++ book was a '24 hours' book, and I knew fully that it was a beginner book, broken into 24 hour long lessons ( well, they took me an average of 20 minutes, but I understood the concept ). I found that book gave me an excellent beginning in c++, I moved on to more complex book and was working as a C++ developer 6 months after buying it.
Given your previous experience I don't doubt it is possible however the "Who should read this book" in the specific book I was referring to clearly states that newbies were who it was aimed at
idyot wrote:
Wow, your ARE a schizo, in another are of the board you take a different view of things.
It was a bizarre thing for you to say, and so commented on it. I did answer your real question in another board, after I read this.
idyot wrote:
Given your previous experience I don't doubt it is possible however the "Who should read this book" in the specific book I was referring to clearly states that newbies were who it was aimed at
Like I said, it was my first ever C++ book. I had done BASIC many years before, but had not programmed for a long, long time.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Hehe... I blogged about this a while back: http://smoothjazzy.blogspot.com/2006/12/be-programmer-but-not-today.html[^]
"Quality Software since 1983!"
http://www.smoothjazzy.com/ - see the "Programming" section for freeware tools and articles.Ahhh some sensible conversation, funny that it took a female to bring the conversation back to something sensible. Compare two posts 1: sends me a picture of the pope saying "go away noob" and..... 2: refers to a blog written previously saying similar things a whole lot more eloquently. Guess which one is which! I like what this blog says and I have since had my eyes opened to another perspective also. These authors of Learn X in 24 hours are merely trying to pass on the enthusiasm they have for their topic to others...Learn X in 5 years of hard slog...probably wont do it :) so I guess I need to take the wanker bit back and apologise to the authors for not seeing things their way. Still Im left in a quandry as to what to learn first as a complete newbie Thanks
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Ahhh some sensible conversation, funny that it took a female to bring the conversation back to something sensible. Compare two posts 1: sends me a picture of the pope saying "go away noob" and..... 2: refers to a blog written previously saying similar things a whole lot more eloquently. Guess which one is which! I like what this blog says and I have since had my eyes opened to another perspective also. These authors of Learn X in 24 hours are merely trying to pass on the enthusiasm they have for their topic to others...Learn X in 5 years of hard slog...probably wont do it :) so I guess I need to take the wanker bit back and apologise to the authors for not seeing things their way. Still Im left in a quandry as to what to learn first as a complete newbie Thanks
There were a few people did give you pretty good advice on this thread. Don't be so hard on them... programmers are a weird lot, and I might have said the same things if people hadn't done it already. That's just the way we are. As I said in my post, as a beginner you want to learn SQL and something else. If you want to go the Microsoft route, it should be C# or VB, and C# would be better. If you want to go the open-source or more general-purpose route, you have a lot of choices but C++ and Java are the most popular I think. You still want to learn SQL. Books aren't always the best way. Those books are good but their titles are misleading and they often don't cover the basics of computer programming in general, so it's hard for an abject noob to get started. If you don't mind putting some money forth, you can take some classes at your local college or vo-tech school, but many college programming classes are not very good. Probly the best way to learn is to have a very experienced and patient friend teach you, but it's hard to meet such people sometimes. As you pointed out repeatedly, this is a skill that takes years to master, and not everyone is capable of doing it, which is why the good ones are so well paid. Most people can learn the basics if they really want to, but few people have the combination of passion, aptitude, and knowledge to do the job well, and it takes years of study and dedication to the craft to reach that level. Good luck!
"Quality Software since 1983!"
http://www.smoothjazzy.com/ - see the "Programming" section for freeware tools and articles. -
There were a few people did give you pretty good advice on this thread. Don't be so hard on them... programmers are a weird lot, and I might have said the same things if people hadn't done it already. That's just the way we are. As I said in my post, as a beginner you want to learn SQL and something else. If you want to go the Microsoft route, it should be C# or VB, and C# would be better. If you want to go the open-source or more general-purpose route, you have a lot of choices but C++ and Java are the most popular I think. You still want to learn SQL. Books aren't always the best way. Those books are good but their titles are misleading and they often don't cover the basics of computer programming in general, so it's hard for an abject noob to get started. If you don't mind putting some money forth, you can take some classes at your local college or vo-tech school, but many college programming classes are not very good. Probly the best way to learn is to have a very experienced and patient friend teach you, but it's hard to meet such people sometimes. As you pointed out repeatedly, this is a skill that takes years to master, and not everyone is capable of doing it, which is why the good ones are so well paid. Most people can learn the basics if they really want to, but few people have the combination of passion, aptitude, and knowledge to do the job well, and it takes years of study and dedication to the craft to reach that level. Good luck!
"Quality Software since 1983!"
http://www.smoothjazzy.com/ - see the "Programming" section for freeware tools and articles.Jasmine2501 wrote:
There were a few people did give you pretty good advice on this thread. Don't be so hard on them
The ones who gave good advice were responded too IMHO reasonably by me, others just wanted a fight and gave no good reasons as to why such books were good, just hurling abuse, which is ok Im up for it and dont hold grudges over internet arguments! Perhaps the title of my original post didnt help the mood.:-O Overall though it generated some responses and I did get some good stuff you are right!
Jasmine2501 wrote:
Most people can learn the basics if they really want to
I want to
Jasmine2501 wrote:
but few people have the combination of passion, aptitude, and knowledge to do the job well, and it takes years of study and dedication to the craft to reach that level
I only wish to begin to learn and see where it takes me, I dont expect to ever do it professionaly but it is an area that interests me
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hehehe, clearly a wanker also!
:laugh: The pope? :-D The biggest of them all...
-- Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
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Jasmine2501 wrote:
There were a few people did give you pretty good advice on this thread. Don't be so hard on them
The ones who gave good advice were responded too IMHO reasonably by me, others just wanted a fight and gave no good reasons as to why such books were good, just hurling abuse, which is ok Im up for it and dont hold grudges over internet arguments! Perhaps the title of my original post didnt help the mood.:-O Overall though it generated some responses and I did get some good stuff you are right!
Jasmine2501 wrote:
Most people can learn the basics if they really want to
I want to
Jasmine2501 wrote:
but few people have the combination of passion, aptitude, and knowledge to do the job well, and it takes years of study and dedication to the craft to reach that level
I only wish to begin to learn and see where it takes me, I dont expect to ever do it professionaly but it is an area that interests me
Quote: Perhaps the title of my original post didnt help the mood. Nah, everyone knows that a noob posting calling people names that a 12 year old would use will only generate friendly responses.
The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. - John Adams
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Quote: Perhaps the title of my original post didnt help the mood. Nah, everyone knows that a noob posting calling people names that a 12 year old would use will only generate friendly responses.
The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. - John Adams
Buddy anything you say has very little weight ...it was a feeling I had about the authors of these books..IT IS AFTER ALL CALLED THE SOAPBOX! So unless your one of those authors....I'm not that interested in what you have to say, your response was ridiculous to say the least!
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Buddy anything you say has very little weight ...it was a feeling I had about the authors of these books..IT IS AFTER ALL CALLED THE SOAPBOX! So unless your one of those authors....I'm not that interested in what you have to say, your response was ridiculous to say the least!
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Jasmine2501 wrote:
There were a few people did give you pretty good advice on this thread. Don't be so hard on them
The ones who gave good advice were responded too IMHO reasonably by me, others just wanted a fight and gave no good reasons as to why such books were good, just hurling abuse, which is ok Im up for it and dont hold grudges over internet arguments! Perhaps the title of my original post didnt help the mood.:-O Overall though it generated some responses and I did get some good stuff you are right!
Jasmine2501 wrote:
Most people can learn the basics if they really want to
I want to
Jasmine2501 wrote:
but few people have the combination of passion, aptitude, and knowledge to do the job well, and it takes years of study and dedication to the craft to reach that level
I only wish to begin to learn and see where it takes me, I dont expect to ever do it professionaly but it is an area that interests me
idyot wrote:
I dont expect to ever do it professionaly but it is an area that interests me
People who say things like that often end up being the most gifted programmers, because their interest drives them, rather than their career goals. I have a degree in Biology, and I said the very same thing myself when I was younger. Now I make really good money doing something I always thought was just for fun. My dad raised me to understand that work is hard, and you don't enjoy it, but you do it because you have to. Since I enjoyed computer programming I was under the impression that it wasn't a proper job, since you aren't supposed to enjoy work. Anyway, I got over that notion and now I've turned a hobby into a career that is supporting me very nicely. Don't discount the possibility of that happening to you. Good luck to you. It sounds like you have a good intention and will probably do well with it.
"Quality Software since 1983!"
http://www.smoothjazzy.com/ - see the "Programming" section for freeware tools and articles. -
idyot wrote:
I dont expect to ever do it professionaly but it is an area that interests me
People who say things like that often end up being the most gifted programmers, because their interest drives them, rather than their career goals. I have a degree in Biology, and I said the very same thing myself when I was younger. Now I make really good money doing something I always thought was just for fun. My dad raised me to understand that work is hard, and you don't enjoy it, but you do it because you have to. Since I enjoyed computer programming I was under the impression that it wasn't a proper job, since you aren't supposed to enjoy work. Anyway, I got over that notion and now I've turned a hobby into a career that is supporting me very nicely. Don't discount the possibility of that happening to you. Good luck to you. It sounds like you have a good intention and will probably do well with it.
"Quality Software since 1983!"
http://www.smoothjazzy.com/ - see the "Programming" section for freeware tools and articles.Hey, Well thanks for encouragement....ya know I kinda feel a bit stupid the way I titled my original post but IT IS the soapbox.....and it did get some resposne and since then I have done a whole lot with the help of people in this forum.... I have finally found a good VB.NET book, purchased it today and am already through the first 4 chapters....Deitels How to program in Visual Basic.NET. Its the first one Ive found that actually DOES talk about HOW to program in VB.NET and doesnt spend 75% of the book on form design! As for a future in computer programming...well Im gettting a bit old for a career change now and I love my job as it is...but I guess I should never discount anything. Bit hard to imagine as I sit here writing my first Console Application from the new book!! :) Cheers for now, I might stay off the soapbox till I know what Im talking about (should take my own advice)
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Chris-Kaiser wrote:
I'll entertain this for a moment, although it reeks of trolling.
How?
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
Then what are you doing here?
To learn to program from real programmers
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
That applies to all books regardless of whether they are part of the Dummy series or the 24 hour series. I used one awhile back when I needed to pick up a new language and it worked fine. It was a Java in 24 hours. And you know what? It worked. In 24 hours I was writing Java code.
I hope that the limited time it took you to take this language up and therefore the lack of depth with which you can attack an application using Java is reflected in the price you charge you clients for your crappy and inefficient code
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
Nice attempt at a rant Idyot. I understand your login now. And would definately take you for a Kyle. You should get more creative on your next attempt, as this one was quite hollow.
Just my two cents, I figured it was ONLY real programmers who would agree anyway. Its the wannabes who would get upset with my comments and it is clear which group you belong too
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
corrected the spelling for sombunall. Leaving irregardless, irregardless of whether you accept it as standard vs nonstandard. I know, double negative an all, but I like the word for that very reason. Kinda like I ain't doin' nuttin'.This statement was never false.
Hehe, well arent you a freaking genius!
idyot wrote:
I hope that the limited time it took you to take this language up and therefore the lack of depth with which you can attack an application using Java is reflected in the price you charge you clients for your crappy and inefficient code
The syntax doesn't control efficiency. Software engineering does. It doesn't matter which language you use. The constructs are mostly the same. And Java being a C-syntax like language, it isn't difficult to pick up if you are already fluent with a C-syntax like language. So, whatever. The code wasn't crappy, but your comments reveal that you are trolling a bit. How do you know its inefficient and crappy? :rolleyes:
idyot wrote:
Just my two cents, I figured it was ONLY real programmers who would agree anyway. Its the wannabes who would get upset with my comments and it is clear which group you belong too
Hahahahaha.... oh that's rich. :laugh: Considering I've been professionally developing software for 10 years. Funny though.
idyot wrote:
Hehe, well arent you a freaking genius!
Troll.
This statement was never false.
