Slate analyses illegal immigration
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Because its the same constitution which made slavery illegal, moron.
Pardon Libby!
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How near to the knife edge is the current American economy. I ask this because if the bill gets a second reading, as suggested by your President [^], and a Z-visa is introduced thus giving some illegals some degree of legal status, will the cost to the economy caused by inevitable higher wages push the economy "over-the-cliff-edge" into some recession that could have worldwide implications. The degree of threat needs to be made known.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
The degree of threat needs to be made known.
Yeah, let's ask for an exact cost in lives and dollars of Global Warming while we're at it. :rolleyes: There's just too much rhetoric; if there even exists a way of making such a prediction, we'd never know it from all the bogus predictions anyway...
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
The degree of threat needs to be made known.
Yeah, let's ask for an exact cost in lives and dollars of Global Warming while we're at it. :rolleyes: There's just too much rhetoric; if there even exists a way of making such a prediction, we'd never know it from all the bogus predictions anyway...
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Sorry Shog, I was trying to get some understanding of how deep seated the problem was. As if the prices at the factory gates increase too dramatically, this has inflationary tendencies that must be addressed by your country's finance minister, and a spiralling out-of-control interest rates will cause wholesale suffering not just in the USA but worldwide, after all, the USA economy is a powerhouse for good and for ill.
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Sorry Shog, I was trying to get some understanding of how deep seated the problem was. As if the prices at the factory gates increase too dramatically, this has inflationary tendencies that must be addressed by your country's finance minister, and a spiralling out-of-control interest rates will cause wholesale suffering not just in the USA but worldwide, after all, the USA economy is a powerhouse for good and for ill.
Right, but my point is that - in spite of the doomsday predictions - pure legislation may have little or no effect. I mean, take meat packing, an industry just filled with illegals. Packing plants are located in rural areas, where it's cheap and easy to ship in both the animals and the labor. The cost of living is low, the cost of processing is low, the cost of meat is low. Incredibly low. I don't believe for a minute that these companies are going to look at the brand-new legal workers and tell their current workforce to take a hike - they'll pay the absolute minimum amount possible; arguments like "shortage of legal workers" and "jobs citizens don't want" are convenient excuses, but don't actually need to be true. The bigger danger would come from enforcing existing laws - which is why there's no bill likely to pass that would cause that to happen. And if one did - if suddenly it became an incredibly expensive risk to hire illegal workers - that would likely only accelerate the trend towards moving the jobs out of the country entirely - why bring cheap southern workers in when you can pay them even lower wages to grow and pack the meat? As for inflation... well, i'm no where close to qualified to comment on that. But my gut feeling is, when holding onto the money you earn isn't considered wise or even safe... we're already spiraling. Now if you'll excuse me, i need to go and sell some stuff so i can pay bills... :rolleyes:
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Enough of that BS below. Let's get a real topic going again. In this article[^] Stephen Landsburg of Slate magazine[^] analyses the economic cost of illegal immigration. He concludes with the following few paragraphs: Accounting for all that, it turns out that the immigrant's $7 gain is worth about five times the American's $3 loss. In other words, to justify keeping the immigrant out, you'd have to say he's worth less than one-fifth of an American citizen. By contrast, there was a time when the U.S. Constitution counted a black slave as three-fifths of a full-fledged citizen. Alabama Gov. Bob Riley has recently apologized for the ravages of slavery. How long till politicians apologize for the ravages of our restrictive immigration policies? Agree? Disagree? Other input? The math is here[^].
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Yes, but GDP is a measure of the market value of all goods and services produced within a given country. Wages aren't included in the GDP measure. Are you saying that economic consumption is reduced which thereby reduces the GDP from a fall in production, then? Because then I'd agree.
Because the discussion relates to wages, I prefer the GDP income[^] method instead of the GDP expenditure method. GDP(I) = Wages + Interest + Rent + Profit + Proprietors' Income + Other Adjustments vs. GDP(E) = Personal Consumption + Investment + Government Consumption + Net Exports
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Why wouldn't the rest of the world want the same constitution that has made the US the worlds only superpower? Just askin'
I'm pretty sure I would not like to live in a world in which I would never be offended. I am absolutely certain I don't want to live in a world in which you would never be offended. Dave
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Why wouldn't the rest of the world want the same constitution that has made the US the worlds only superpower? Just askin'
I'm pretty sure I would not like to live in a world in which I would never be offended. I am absolutely certain I don't want to live in a world in which you would never be offended. Dave
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DRHuff wrote:
Why wouldn't the rest of the world want the same constitution that has made the US the worlds only superpower?
The US is a superpower solely because of its constitution?
Yup. It's like the frickin' monolith from 2001 - we were all monkeys 'fore The Constitution descended on us... :rolleyes: (...well, that would explain why we've been throwing crap at it ever since... :sigh: )
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Yup. It's like the frickin' monolith from 2001 - we were all monkeys 'fore The Constitution descended on us... :rolleyes: (...well, that would explain why we've been throwing crap at it ever since... :sigh: )
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Damb, I always thought hard work, abundant natural resources and Europe bankrupting itself in WWI had something to do with it
The world is so black and white for you...
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Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Eh, come on...I'm must trying to start an intelligent discussion rather than a blatant troll like so many of the threads just below.
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Eh, come on...I'm must trying to start an intelligent discussion rather than a blatant troll like so many of the threads just below.
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Eh, come on...I'm must trying to start an intelligent discussion rather than a blatant troll like so many of the threads just below.
73Zeppelin wrote:
Eh, come on...I'm must trying to start an intelligent discussion
You're right, of course. This just happens to be something that lights me up. Spent a portion of my Saturday in a protest of my Senators' stance on the issue. I have an interesting document on the subject that I'll post when I finish it if I can find a place to host it. Document supposedly created by an advisor to Vincente Fox documenting discussions with USA law makers a few years back. 12 page PDF. Interesting so far. From an antecdotal view, (supposedly) from a California school teacher: From a California school teacher - - -"As you listen to the news about the student protests over illegal immigration, there are some things that you should be aware of: I am in charge of the English-as-a-second-language department at a large southern California high school which is designated a Title 1 school, meaning that its students average lower socioeconomic and income levels. Most of the schools you are hearing about, South Gate High, Bell Gardens, Huntington Park, etc., where these students are protesting, are also Title 1 schools. Title 1 schools are on the free breakfast and free lunch program. When I say free breakfast, I'm not talking a glass of milk and roll -- but a full breakfast and cereal bar with fruits and juices that would make a Marriott proud. The waste of this food is monumental, with trays and trays of it being dumped in the trash uneaten. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK) I estimate that well over 50% of these students are obese or at least moderately overweight. About 75% or more DO have cell phones. The school also provides day care centers for the unwed teenage pregnant girls (some as young as 13) so they can attend class without the inconvenience of having to arrange for babysitters or having family watch their kids. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK) I was ordered to spend $700,000 on my department or risk losing funding for the upcoming year even though there was little need for anything; my budget was already substantial. I ended up buying new computers for the computer learning center, half of which, one month later, have been carved with graffiti by the appreciative students who obviously feel humbled and grateful to have a free education in America. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK) I have had to intervene several times for young and substitute teachers whose classes consist of many illegal immigrant students here in the country less then 3 mont
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73Zeppelin wrote:
Eh, come on...I'm must trying to start an intelligent discussion
You're right, of course. This just happens to be something that lights me up. Spent a portion of my Saturday in a protest of my Senators' stance on the issue. I have an interesting document on the subject that I'll post when I finish it if I can find a place to host it. Document supposedly created by an advisor to Vincente Fox documenting discussions with USA law makers a few years back. 12 page PDF. Interesting so far. From an antecdotal view, (supposedly) from a California school teacher: From a California school teacher - - -"As you listen to the news about the student protests over illegal immigration, there are some things that you should be aware of: I am in charge of the English-as-a-second-language department at a large southern California high school which is designated a Title 1 school, meaning that its students average lower socioeconomic and income levels. Most of the schools you are hearing about, South Gate High, Bell Gardens, Huntington Park, etc., where these students are protesting, are also Title 1 schools. Title 1 schools are on the free breakfast and free lunch program. When I say free breakfast, I'm not talking a glass of milk and roll -- but a full breakfast and cereal bar with fruits and juices that would make a Marriott proud. The waste of this food is monumental, with trays and trays of it being dumped in the trash uneaten. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK) I estimate that well over 50% of these students are obese or at least moderately overweight. About 75% or more DO have cell phones. The school also provides day care centers for the unwed teenage pregnant girls (some as young as 13) so they can attend class without the inconvenience of having to arrange for babysitters or having family watch their kids. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK) I was ordered to spend $700,000 on my department or risk losing funding for the upcoming year even though there was little need for anything; my budget was already substantial. I ended up buying new computers for the computer learning center, half of which, one month later, have been carved with graffiti by the appreciative students who obviously feel humbled and grateful to have a free education in America. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK) I have had to intervene several times for young and substitute teachers whose classes consist of many illegal immigrant students here in the country less then 3 mont
Clearly the system for dealing with illegal immigrants in the USA is wildly different than applies in the UK.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
CHEAP LABOR?
From that heading downward, I get the impression that very little is done to round-up these illegal immigrants and deport them. Your country even welcomes these peoples (in a manner of speak) as you actively provide housing, education, health and tax refunds. This is very alien to the way illegal immigrants are treated in the UK. If such peoples are found, they are rounded-up (together with their families, although the vast majority are here are without their families) and after the requisite procedures are followed, are very likely to be deported to their country of origin. And while these peoples are here, they pay no tax, do not qualify for tax refunds, do not qualify for housing, education and health. From this page http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article354784.ece[^] the use of fraudulent documentation is high, the degree of violence - verbal and physical - is normalised as high, the threat that their presence can be found out because of unscrupulous employers/work colleagues. The two systems are akin to chalk and cheese. This being the primary reason why I pose questions such as to Shog above and in other threads, I would like to understand more of the system employed in the United States and attempt to make comparisons with that which occurs in my own country - the UK. To be better understanding of the issues is beneficial.
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Enough of that BS below. Let's get a real topic going again. In this article[^] Stephen Landsburg of Slate magazine[^] analyses the economic cost of illegal immigration. He concludes with the following few paragraphs: Accounting for all that, it turns out that the immigrant's $7 gain is worth about five times the American's $3 loss. In other words, to justify keeping the immigrant out, you'd have to say he's worth less than one-fifth of an American citizen. By contrast, there was a time when the U.S. Constitution counted a black slave as three-fifths of a full-fledged citizen. Alabama Gov. Bob Riley has recently apologized for the ravages of slavery. How long till politicians apologize for the ravages of our restrictive immigration policies? Agree? Disagree? Other input? The math is here[^].
When in doubt, claim racism.
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
You ever get the impression that you are banging you head against a brick wall?
All the time. All the time...
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73Zeppelin wrote:
Eh, come on...I'm must trying to start an intelligent discussion
You're right, of course. This just happens to be something that lights me up. Spent a portion of my Saturday in a protest of my Senators' stance on the issue. I have an interesting document on the subject that I'll post when I finish it if I can find a place to host it. Document supposedly created by an advisor to Vincente Fox documenting discussions with USA law makers a few years back. 12 page PDF. Interesting so far. From an antecdotal view, (supposedly) from a California school teacher: From a California school teacher - - -"As you listen to the news about the student protests over illegal immigration, there are some things that you should be aware of: I am in charge of the English-as-a-second-language department at a large southern California high school which is designated a Title 1 school, meaning that its students average lower socioeconomic and income levels. Most of the schools you are hearing about, South Gate High, Bell Gardens, Huntington Park, etc., where these students are protesting, are also Title 1 schools. Title 1 schools are on the free breakfast and free lunch program. When I say free breakfast, I'm not talking a glass of milk and roll -- but a full breakfast and cereal bar with fruits and juices that would make a Marriott proud. The waste of this food is monumental, with trays and trays of it being dumped in the trash uneaten. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK) I estimate that well over 50% of these students are obese or at least moderately overweight. About 75% or more DO have cell phones. The school also provides day care centers for the unwed teenage pregnant girls (some as young as 13) so they can attend class without the inconvenience of having to arrange for babysitters or having family watch their kids. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK) I was ordered to spend $700,000 on my department or risk losing funding for the upcoming year even though there was little need for anything; my budget was already substantial. I ended up buying new computers for the computer learning center, half of which, one month later, have been carved with graffiti by the appreciative students who obviously feel humbled and grateful to have a free education in America. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK) I have had to intervene several times for young and substitute teachers whose classes consist of many illegal immigrant students here in the country less then 3 mont
Okay, thanks Mike. See, now I've actually learned a little something regarding the other issues. Since I'm not American I know very little about the programs outlined in your post. When I posted this thread, I wasn't trying to say that I think illegal immigration was no problem, I just wanted people's opinion on the article. I actually think your government should be doing more to stop the flow of immigrants across the border. I just wanted to learn something about the issue and I did.
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Clearly the system for dealing with illegal immigrants in the USA is wildly different than applies in the UK.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
CHEAP LABOR?
From that heading downward, I get the impression that very little is done to round-up these illegal immigrants and deport them. Your country even welcomes these peoples (in a manner of speak) as you actively provide housing, education, health and tax refunds. This is very alien to the way illegal immigrants are treated in the UK. If such peoples are found, they are rounded-up (together with their families, although the vast majority are here are without their families) and after the requisite procedures are followed, are very likely to be deported to their country of origin. And while these peoples are here, they pay no tax, do not qualify for tax refunds, do not qualify for housing, education and health. From this page http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article354784.ece[^] the use of fraudulent documentation is high, the degree of violence - verbal and physical - is normalised as high, the threat that their presence can be found out because of unscrupulous employers/work colleagues. The two systems are akin to chalk and cheese. This being the primary reason why I pose questions such as to Shog above and in other threads, I would like to understand more of the system employed in the United States and attempt to make comparisons with that which occurs in my own country - the UK. To be better understanding of the issues is beneficial.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
I get the impression that very little is done to round-up these illegal immigrants and deport them.
So little in fact that it is infuriating to the typical citizen. I don't know if you saw my previous thread on "Sanctuary Cities" or not but some cities such as San Fransisco and Austin have given their Police Departments orders to not question the citizenship (and not cooperate with federal authorities) of someone they encounter in the normal course of events. Here's an example. A policeman notices someone driving erratically. The policeman pulls the car over and asks for a driver's license. The guy he pulled over doesn't have one and "appears" to be a an illegal. All the policeman in these sanctuary cities can do is issue a ticket for the guy not having a license.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Your country even welcomes these peoples (in a manner of speak) as you actively provide housing, education, health and tax refunds.
A judicial system run amuk. Several cities in the USA have attempted to make it a crime or civil infraction to, for example, lease an apartment to an illegal. Federal courts have invariably struck down these laws by stating that it is the federal government's job to control immigration. ---- All the above is fascinating when you realize that our federal government has refused to enforce our borders and enforce our immigration laws. The same federal government that will not do so, makes it impossible for local governments to do what needs to be done - then, the federal government states that, "we have a broken system" that can only be corrected by granting the illegals amnesty (although they refuse to call it that) and make it easier to "bring them out of the shadows". Out of the shadows my arse. These illegals openly laugh at citizens who complain. ALl of the above is being done to bring in cheap labor for businesses, while transferring the actual cost to our citizens through higher taxes. A real pisser.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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When in doubt, claim racism.
Red Stateler wrote:
When in doubt, claim racism.
Yeah, the comparison to slaves at the end was quite ridiculous. The math, okay, that's how we have intelligent discussions, but the conclusion was rather silly...