This poll is gay
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Red Stateler wrote:
I was being controversial. :)
Ah ha! That's different :)
Red Stateler wrote:
Psychological disorders are essentially defined as deviation from the norm.
Yes
Red Stateler wrote:
Everybody is weird to some extent
Not me. I'm perfectly normal. Who says I'm not?!
Red Stateler wrote:
Homosexuality was, as recently as the late 1970's, listed as an official psychological disorder by the psychiatric community. It was removed as part of a political movement to make it more mainstream. So yes, until very recently, it was considered an affliction of sorts and undesirable.
Consider the history of that diagnosis. It was prepared by the same people who thought that women should be clitorally stimulated to cure their insanity, and only when they realized they were prescribing orgasms did they rethink that position. The Greeks practiced same-sex sexuality as have many human cultures. In yet other cultures the strict line of homo/heterosexuality is what we would consider very, very blurry. It's a cultural norm, not an indication of affliction. Although I suppose that depends how you define 'affliction.'
Red Stateler wrote:
There can be no denying that the past 2 decades have seen a very expansive propagation of pro-homosexual media.
I won't disagree with your point, because I agree. Wait, that's redundant. Although, I think it would be fair to note that this isn't necessarily a bad thing. I don't think it's acceptable to treat an entire sector of society as a pariah merely because of something over which they have no control, rather like left-handed people were treated for centuries.
Patrick Sears wrote:
Consider the history of that diagnosis. It was prepared by the same people who thought that women should be clitorally stimulated to cure their insanity, and only when they realized they were prescribing orgasms did they rethink that position. The Greeks practiced same-sex sexuality as have many human cultures. In yet other cultures the strict line of homo/heterosexuality is what we would consider very, very blurry. It's a cultural norm, not an indication of affliction. Although I suppose that depends how you define 'affliction.'
Of course, at the same time as the Greeks, the Spartans believed it a cultural norm (or rather necessity) to kill each other while training for battle. So does that mean that we should accept killing each other as a "cultural norm"? Boundaries for acceptable behavior are defined by every culture and just because one culture practiced polygamy, human sacrifice or headhunting doesn't mean that it should be a de facto standard in ours. In an increasingly secularist society, psychologists have been tasked with defining normal and abnormal behavior over priests and preachers. The fundamental problem with that is the lack of an authoritative guide of sorts to reign in behavior. Psychology essentially leads to self-guided morality (or moral relativism), which opens up polygamy, human sacrifice or headhunting to possibly accepted cultural norms. A society without reigns inevitably decays and the reigns have been removed from the United States. But who cares, because global warming is going to kill us all, right?
Patrick Sears wrote:
Although, I think it would be fair to note that this isn't necessarily a bad thing. I don't think it's acceptable to treat an entire sector of society as a pariah merely because of something over which they have no control, rather like left-handed people were treated for centuries.
It's a bad thing because it shows the locus of cultural power in the West. It's no longer moral leaders (like priests and pastors) or intellectual leaders. Basically those who govern culture are those with the loudest voice. Unfortunately, that's rarely the wisest.
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Red Stateler wrote:
The spread of AIDS in the US was a direct result of homosexual promiscuity. You know that. Don't try to rewrite history.
Of course I do. That doesn't make homosexuality itself bad, it just means people are stupid. And I should note that it was spread through homosexual promiscuity as a direct result of the social stigma against homosexuality. Had it been accepted these people would like have had normal relationships.
Patrick Sears wrote:
And I should note that it was spread through homosexual promiscuity as a direct result of the social stigma against homosexuality. Had it been accepted these people would like have had normal relationships.
That's complete BS. If you're going to be dishonest to yourself in order to justify your stance, I'm not going to bother.
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If he comes near me I'll show him what "Bible Thumping" really means. ;)
Anna :rose: Linting the day away :cool: Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:
If he comes near me I'll show him what "Bible Thumping" really means.
Yeah, I never take him seriously. I wouldn't worry about it too much. I don't even think he was against you, really. I think he was sarcastically comparing the situation to a witch-hunt...and if not, well, he just posts silly stuff to annoy people.
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
So is paedophilia,rape, murder, theft and bestiality. I'm pro homo, but an argument from naturalism is dangerous as anything other than a refutation that the behaviour is 'unnatural'.
Nice argument by appeal to emotion there. Doesn't change my point and the argument from naturalism is incredibly different than an argument based on social behavior. Pedophilia, rape, murder, theft blah blah blah are learned behaviors and rely on a human mind. Sexual preference is purely chemical. And certainly just because OTHER behaviors are common does NOT invalidate the argument that homosexuality is normal because it's common. That's like saying anything green is bad because your food turns green when it rots. Yes, there are other 'higher' arguments in favor of TOLERANCE of homosexuality but I was referring to treating homosexuality as a disease. There's no rational basis for such a treatment.
Patrick Sears wrote:
paedophilia
Is a sexual preference.
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Christian Graus wrote:
How common is 'very common' ? Greater than it is in humans ( that is, < 5% ) ?
Perhaps I overstated it. It's about as common as in humans. Sources - I could point you to websites but you're capable of searching Google yourself. My information comes from books, though. I'll get you the titles if you're interested.
Christian Graus wrote:
Of course, given that it's essentially caused by errors in brain programming during pregnancy, it's possible that some animals, in high stress or otherwise abnormal environments, would deviate from the norm.
I like your terminology. It IS an error. I wouldn't call it a disease, but it is an error. Seems to be a mostly beneficial one though. What's really interesting is how consistently it occurs, and in so many species. You'd expect if it were really a problem it would get selected out through breeding (e.g., the lack of breeding).
Patrick Sears wrote:
You'd expect if it were really a problem it would get selected out through breeding (e.g., the lack of breeding).
What this points to, IMO, is that it's likely not genetic. If it were, it would have been bred out, long before social pressure played a part in our choice of sexual partners ( which is the argument I usually hear, gay guys had sex with girls due to social pressure, and passed on the gene )
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Christian Graus wrote:
I'd imagine I'd find such ignorance plain annoying
I am just use to it by now. But I can also have fun with it :) As for the books I would love to have the list. I find it interesting. I am sure my partner who thinks I am odd at the best of times, will find it amusing that I will be reading "Why Men Don't Iron" LOL
This[^] is the other one I recall covering the subject in depth, but if you search for 'brain sex' on Amazon, I have most of those books. As my interest is peripheral, I can't be sure how many of them cover homosexuality.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Patrick Sears wrote:
And I should note that it was spread through homosexual promiscuity as a direct result of the social stigma against homosexuality. Had it been accepted these people would like have had normal relationships.
That's complete BS. If you're going to be dishonest to yourself in order to justify your stance, I'm not going to bother.
Aaaaaaaaaand that's the point where any rational discussion with you breaks down. It always seems to come to that. We get to a point where you simply refuse to consider and you call it BS and that's where discussion ends. I really don't understand why you bother. If you find other people's opinions so unpleasant, it makes no sense to me that you continue to submerse yourself in them.
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Patrick Sears wrote:
paedophilia
Is a sexual preference.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Is a sexual preference.
Please. Equating pedophilia and homosexuality is simply intellectual dishonesty of the highest order.
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I've just got another book on sex brain differences, and the preface is talking about common beliefs about homosexuality. It claims that a vast majority of people still believe that homosexuality is a choice, either arising from social pressures, or consciously made. Vote 1 if you believe that is the case, and 5 if you believe that it's hard wired into a persons brain.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
Christian Graus wrote:
I've just got another book on sex brain differences,
ummis there any particular reason you have sex differences on the brain? i'm beginning to wonder about you young man bryce
--- To paraphrase Fred Dagg - the views expressed in this post are bloody good ones. --
Publitor, making Pubmed easy. http://www.sohocode.com/publitorOur kids books :The Snot Goblin, and Book 2 - the Snotgoblin and Fluff
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This[^] is the other one I recall covering the subject in depth, but if you search for 'brain sex' on Amazon, I have most of those books. As my interest is peripheral, I can't be sure how many of them cover homosexuality.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ "I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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I voted 3 because I think it can go both ways (no pun intended). I'd wager some are born that way and others become gay through years of escalating perversion. If it's biochemical, do you think we can cure it with a pill?
Red Stateler wrote:
of escalating perversion
I take it you base this on Christianity? That because the bible says its a perversion? What I've often wondered is why God put an erogenous zone in the anus. Why the need to stimulate pleasure in your butt?
This statement was never false.