Today Jesse Jackson Weeps
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
So I can understand a 45 minute bus ride.
A 45 minute bus ride to go to a better school is understandable. To go to the ghetto against your will is not.
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Has your forced attendance of this ghetto school adversely affected you in your adult life?
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Has your forced attendance of this ghetto school adversely affected you in your adult life?
Yes. To this day I am very scared of the idea of going to prison.
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
children (as mine did) meet the other schools entry qualification, then that is fine.
This is a public system? You have requirements for a public school?
73Zeppelin wrote:
You have requirements for a public school?
In the UK, a public school is a privately run school. You are confusing it with state schools. Specialist state schools can select by requirements.
Ðavid Wulff What kind of music should programmers listen to?
Join the Code Project Last.fm group | dwulff
I'm so gangsta I eat cereal without the milk -
TClarke wrote:
Did it work? Do you have more positive empathy with the groups you were integrated with?
Of course not. Just the opposite. The only class I even shared with the ghetto kids was gym (since they all took shop and remedial classes). Even in gym, they'd refuse to participate and would get into trouble half the time. If anything, it was the first experience that led me to believe that poor people are poor due to their own making.
Red Stateler wrote:
it was the first experience that led me to believe that poor people are poor due to their own making.
A very frank and honest admission if I may say so. This is essentially the same thinking as the Reaganite/Thatcherite concept that wealth equates to moral good, poor==dumb==lazy==bad, rich==smart==hardworking==good. Only one small step from there to "greed is good" and you're well on the way down the slippery slope to fuedal anarchism. That's the state where it's OK for me to kill or enslave someone just because I'm smarter/richer/tougher/better than they are, and someone else can come along and do the same to me. In fact they can prove they are smarter/better by doing it and it's therefore self justifying. Have you ever considered that perhaps poor people are poor because someone greedy took what they should have had and made them poor, or because their different culture is ineffecient in the structures set up by a capitalist system, although it might be superior in other ways. Perhaps some people are even poor because they spend their time and energy on things they value more than material wealth. That would be due to their own making but not necessarily a bad thing or something they should suffer for.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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73Zeppelin wrote:
I'm not sure I understand...what is an "integration plan"?
When I was in Junior High School (in Florida), I was placed on a 45-minute bus ride straight into the ghetto so that I was in a school that was more...racially proportionate. The school was fenced in, but that didn't seem to keep the drug dealers out. I remember one "kid" (who must have been at least 16 or 17 years old) in this junior high school (basically 13 year olds) who looked very thugged out. This was done for the sole purpose of "integrating" us. That process has just been ruled unconstitutional.
I'm glad South African quota systems, black economic empowerment, and affirmative action, have seemed to avoid schools quite nicely, in general. I have no qualms about integration, and if I did I would have a problem being a minority, but this kind of forced injection is wrong.
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TClarke wrote:
Did it work? Do you have more positive empathy with the groups you were integrated with?
Of course not. Just the opposite. The only class I even shared with the ghetto kids was gym (since they all took shop and remedial classes). Even in gym, they'd refuse to participate and would get into trouble half the time. If anything, it was the first experience that led me to believe that poor people are poor due to their own making.
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73Zeppelin wrote:
You have requirements for a public school?
In the UK, a public school is a privately run school. You are confusing it with state schools. Specialist state schools can select by requirements.
Ðavid Wulff What kind of music should programmers listen to?
Join the Code Project Last.fm group | dwulff
I'm so gangsta I eat cereal without the milkThat has always amused me. When I was young, pre-teen, it always confused me. Here, a public school is government run, and a private school privately run.
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Red Stateler wrote:
it was the first experience that led me to believe that poor people are poor due to their own making.
then what's your excuse?
led mike wrote:
then what's your excuse?
Global warming.
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Has your forced attendance of this ghetto school adversely affected you in your adult life?
Yes. To this day I am very scared of the idea of going to prison.
So am I, and I never attended a ghetto school.
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73Zeppelin wrote:
In Canada they ship you to whatever school is closest to you. But I'm still having trouble understanding... You were 45 mins away from school? There were none closer? And, if that's not the case, what was the point of shipping you 45 mins away? I still don't get it..
Yes there were many closer schools, but they shipped us into the ghetto in order to forcefully integrate us.
73Zeppelin wrote:
As for drug dealers, that's no biggie. Every night I walk home I pass about 6-7 of them on average going through the tunnel under the central train station here. Two nights ago the cops were chasing about 4 of them. The very next night they were all back in their usual position. Mind you, I'm big enough that they don't mess much with me - mostly the addicts pester me for money and I do my best to keep them from coming in contact with me...
I see drug dealers all the time, but they doesn't mean suburban children should be forced into high crime areas just to pursue the left-wing utopia.
Red Stateler wrote:
I see drug dealers all the time
Should you be saying that on a public forum? :~
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Red Stateler wrote:
I see drug dealers all the time
Should you be saying that on a public forum? :~
Brady Kelly wrote:
Should you be saying that on a public forum?
:laugh:
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led mike wrote:
then what's your excuse?
Global warming.
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Red Stateler wrote:
it was the first experience that led me to believe that poor people are poor due to their own making.
A very frank and honest admission if I may say so. This is essentially the same thinking as the Reaganite/Thatcherite concept that wealth equates to moral good, poor==dumb==lazy==bad, rich==smart==hardworking==good. Only one small step from there to "greed is good" and you're well on the way down the slippery slope to fuedal anarchism. That's the state where it's OK for me to kill or enslave someone just because I'm smarter/richer/tougher/better than they are, and someone else can come along and do the same to me. In fact they can prove they are smarter/better by doing it and it's therefore self justifying. Have you ever considered that perhaps poor people are poor because someone greedy took what they should have had and made them poor, or because their different culture is ineffecient in the structures set up by a capitalist system, although it might be superior in other ways. Perhaps some people are even poor because they spend their time and energy on things they value more than material wealth. That would be due to their own making but not necessarily a bad thing or something they should suffer for.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
A very frank and honest admission if I may say so. This is essentially the same thinking as the Reaganite/Thatcherite concept that wealth equates to moral good, poor==dumb==lazy==bad, rich==smart==hardworking==good.
Poverty does not equate to immorality. However, in my experience poverty does in most cases equate to sloth, which happens to be one of the seven deadly sins. Nor did I involve the state in my opinion. Rather, I'm saying that there was a distinct difference between the two classes, even though they attended the same school. That difference was simply that there poor ghetto kids were punks. They had no desire to be educated or advance beyond their class, even though they were presented with the exact same opportunities as the bussed kids. From what I could tell, nobody was "keeping them down" except themselves.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Have you ever considered that perhaps poor people are poor because someone greedy took what they should have had and made them poor, or because their different culture is ineffecient in the structures set up by a capitalist system, although it might be superior in other ways. Perhaps some people are even poor because they spend their time and energy on things they value more than material wealth. That would be due to their own making but not necessarily a bad thing or something they should suffer for.
What do they spend their time on? Smoking crack? One doesn't have to be slothful or willfully ignorant to be poor. But being slothful and willfully ignorant virtually guarantees poverty. This group of people was most certainly the latter. I'm pretty sure that most of them are probably in the same ghetto (or maybe another one) contributing to the local crime syndicate. That's not because of some invisble hand holding them back. It was very clear that it was a choice they made. Your various conspiracy theories have no bearing on that whatsoever.
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73Zeppelin wrote:
I'm not sure I understand...what is an "integration plan"?
When I was in Junior High School (in Florida), I was placed on a 45-minute bus ride straight into the ghetto so that I was in a school that was more...racially proportionate. The school was fenced in, but that didn't seem to keep the drug dealers out. I remember one "kid" (who must have been at least 16 or 17 years old) in this junior high school (basically 13 year olds) who looked very thugged out. This was done for the sole purpose of "integrating" us. That process has just been ruled unconstitutional.
Same here, I was bussed from Pine Hills to a school very close to Kissimmiee back in the early 80's. The area was complete squalor, looked like the remnants of an old plantation. People living in houses with dirt floors, abandoned houses full of bums/drunks/druggies, whatever. I was one of like 15 white kids out of 100 or so in my class. It sucked but I wouldn't trade the experience for the world.
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Same here, I was bussed from Pine Hills to a school very close to Kissimmiee back in the early 80's. The area was complete squalor, looked like the remnants of an old plantation. People living in houses with dirt floors, abandoned houses full of bums/drunks/druggies, whatever. I was one of like 15 white kids out of 100 or so in my class. It sucked but I wouldn't trade the experience for the world.
George L wrote:
Same here, I was bussed from Pine Hills to a school very close to Kissimmiee back in the early 80's. The area was complete squalor, looked like the remnants of an old plantation. People living in houses with dirt floors, abandoned houses full of bums/drunks/druggies, whatever. I was one of like 15 white kids out of 100 or so in my class. It sucked but I wouldn't trade the experience for the world.
Wow. Mine was inner city. The projects. Lots of wifebeater shirts and hiked up boxer shorts. There obviously weren't any dirt floors, but I think the idea was the same. I'm not sure of the ratio, but I believe it was about 50/50.
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
A very frank and honest admission if I may say so. This is essentially the same thinking as the Reaganite/Thatcherite concept that wealth equates to moral good, poor==dumb==lazy==bad, rich==smart==hardworking==good.
Poverty does not equate to immorality. However, in my experience poverty does in most cases equate to sloth, which happens to be one of the seven deadly sins. Nor did I involve the state in my opinion. Rather, I'm saying that there was a distinct difference between the two classes, even though they attended the same school. That difference was simply that there poor ghetto kids were punks. They had no desire to be educated or advance beyond their class, even though they were presented with the exact same opportunities as the bussed kids. From what I could tell, nobody was "keeping them down" except themselves.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Have you ever considered that perhaps poor people are poor because someone greedy took what they should have had and made them poor, or because their different culture is ineffecient in the structures set up by a capitalist system, although it might be superior in other ways. Perhaps some people are even poor because they spend their time and energy on things they value more than material wealth. That would be due to their own making but not necessarily a bad thing or something they should suffer for.
What do they spend their time on? Smoking crack? One doesn't have to be slothful or willfully ignorant to be poor. But being slothful and willfully ignorant virtually guarantees poverty. This group of people was most certainly the latter. I'm pretty sure that most of them are probably in the same ghetto (or maybe another one) contributing to the local crime syndicate. That's not because of some invisble hand holding them back. It was very clear that it was a choice they made. Your various conspiracy theories have no bearing on that whatsoever.
Red Stateler wrote:
That's not because of some invisble hand holding them back. It was very clear that it was a choice they made.
So the invisible hand of their parents had no effect? What are the chances that you would have ended up exactly like them had been subjected to the same environment at home?
Whenever an appliance, gadget, or other kind of technology you own breaks or stops performing, pray to Science for it to be saved (fixed). If it doesn't change, don't worry... just keep praying. Science works in mysterious ways! - Someone on the Internet
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73Zeppelin wrote:
You have requirements for a public school?
In the UK, a public school is a privately run school. You are confusing it with state schools. Specialist state schools can select by requirements.
Ðavid Wulff What kind of music should programmers listen to?
Join the Code Project Last.fm group | dwulff
I'm so gangsta I eat cereal without the milk -
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
A very frank and honest admission if I may say so. This is essentially the same thinking as the Reaganite/Thatcherite concept that wealth equates to moral good, poor==dumb==lazy==bad, rich==smart==hardworking==good.
Poverty does not equate to immorality. However, in my experience poverty does in most cases equate to sloth, which happens to be one of the seven deadly sins. Nor did I involve the state in my opinion. Rather, I'm saying that there was a distinct difference between the two classes, even though they attended the same school. That difference was simply that there poor ghetto kids were punks. They had no desire to be educated or advance beyond their class, even though they were presented with the exact same opportunities as the bussed kids. From what I could tell, nobody was "keeping them down" except themselves.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Have you ever considered that perhaps poor people are poor because someone greedy took what they should have had and made them poor, or because their different culture is ineffecient in the structures set up by a capitalist system, although it might be superior in other ways. Perhaps some people are even poor because they spend their time and energy on things they value more than material wealth. That would be due to their own making but not necessarily a bad thing or something they should suffer for.
What do they spend their time on? Smoking crack? One doesn't have to be slothful or willfully ignorant to be poor. But being slothful and willfully ignorant virtually guarantees poverty. This group of people was most certainly the latter. I'm pretty sure that most of them are probably in the same ghetto (or maybe another one) contributing to the local crime syndicate. That's not because of some invisble hand holding them back. It was very clear that it was a choice they made. Your various conspiracy theories have no bearing on that whatsoever.
"Poverty does not equate to immorality. However, in my experience poverty does in most cases equate to sloth, which happens to be one of the seven deadly sins. Nor did I involve the state in my opinion. Rather, I'm saying that there was a distinct difference between the two classes, even though they attended the same school. That difference was simply that there poor ghetto kids were punks. They had no desire to be educated or advance beyond their class, even though they were presented with the exact same opportunities as the bussed kids. From what I could tell, nobody was "keeping them down" except themselves." This is very similar to my take and my experience in a similar environment. The teachers were beside themselves trying to educate us and these kids just wanted nothing of it. They had no desire to better their position in life. The ONLY thing that motivated them to do anything at all was sports. Social promotion (advancing students through the system regardless of their capabilities) was rampant to avoid an abhorrent student failure rate. By 6th grade, most of these kids were barely able to read a "See Dick run" book. This is not to say that EVER kid was like that, but a very large majority. There were just a few kids in each class that were the 'nerds', 'geeks' or whatever that actually stayed quiet, did their homework, etc... and WANTED to get off 'the welfare'. The rest thought it was just a big joke and it was the white man putting them down.
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Red Stateler wrote:
That's not because of some invisble hand holding them back. It was very clear that it was a choice they made.
So the invisible hand of their parents had no effect? What are the chances that you would have ended up exactly like them had been subjected to the same environment at home?
Whenever an appliance, gadget, or other kind of technology you own breaks or stops performing, pray to Science for it to be saved (fixed). If it doesn't change, don't worry... just keep praying. Science works in mysterious ways! - Someone on the Internet
Al Beback wrote:
So the invisible hand of their parents had no effect? What are the chances that you would have ended up exactly like them had been subjected to the same environment at home?
I'm sure that had a very significant effect. Although your assumption that "parents" should be plural is a bit of a stretch... I'm sure each parent was every bit as useless as their children. It certainly was a great community!
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George L wrote:
Same here, I was bussed from Pine Hills to a school very close to Kissimmiee back in the early 80's. The area was complete squalor, looked like the remnants of an old plantation. People living in houses with dirt floors, abandoned houses full of bums/drunks/druggies, whatever. I was one of like 15 white kids out of 100 or so in my class. It sucked but I wouldn't trade the experience for the world.
Wow. Mine was inner city. The projects. Lots of wifebeater shirts and hiked up boxer shorts. There obviously weren't any dirt floors, but I think the idea was the same. I'm not sure of the ratio, but I believe it was about 50/50.
Yeah, I think this area was where people that didn't qualify for the projects ended up.