Another irrefutable argument for creation
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I think the common idea you expressed is remarkably close to the truth. All religions are derivative, either from old testament Judaism or from the occult or are esentially based on the ideas of one guy, now dead, who would have been influenced by and may have been reacting against earlier religious ideas from the same sources. All the anamist religions, ancestor worship religions and idol worship religions from shamanism to shintoism are derivative of spiritism or 'the worship of demons' as it should properly be called. Hinduism also falls into this category although it is diluted with much philosophical baggage. Seikism is much similar although from what I have heard it is mixed up with a 'religion of works' concept like Islam or hard core Roman Catholisism e.g. Opus Dei. These religions spring essentially from a misunderstanding of Christianity. There are plenty of sects and splinter groups and '3rd ways' but essentailly people either worship demons, usually unwittingly, ensalve themselves to sterile religious law (The decayed state of Old Testament Judaism by the time of Christ for example), worship themselves, money or a random celebrity which covers most of the modern western world or worship the one true God who created the universe and everything in it. I've no doubt somebody will point up some exceptions, worshipers of computational chemistry or something but you see my point.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
but you see my point
Really? :~
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Please clarify what you think is convenient and to whom?
Seems convenient that those who wrote the scriptures can forbid investigation into their veracity. No?
Not at all. If you would go to Demons to confirm the voracity of the scriptures then you would be a fool. The scriptures confirm their own voracity as only the word of God can. Read them and pray that the Spirit of God will give you the wisdom to understand what you're reading and you may see for yourself.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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Not at all. If you would go to Demons to confirm the voracity of the scriptures then you would be a fool. The scriptures confirm their own voracity as only the word of God can. Read them and pray that the Spirit of God will give you the wisdom to understand what you're reading and you may see for yourself.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
but you see my point
Really? :~
OK, let me bullet point it for you. All religions can be approximately categorised as one of the following. 1. Devil worship, usually indirect and or unwitting. 2. Legalistic religious practice in an attempt to 'qualify' or attain 'nirvana' 3. Usually unthoughtout idol worship of the self or materialism or equivalent 4. Christianity As categories 1 to 3 all lead down that same braod road to destruction the old saw that 'all religions are the same' is only one step away from being true. It just needs the addition of 'except Chrisitanity'. Clear enough ?
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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I have no knowledge of the process of making opals which I'm sure is fascinating. It must be more interesting than the process of making diamonds which takes about 20 minutes and is surprisingly unspectacular. I am aware of Apparently 3 million year old petrified whigs, 9 million year old modern human skeletons dug up in Yugoslavia, infinitely compressible ice which apparently doesn't get any denser when its compressed :omg: and a really neat process of plate tectonics which repaves all the ocean floors every 25000 years or so which of course proves beyond doubt that they must be much older than that or how could they have been repaved so many times! I'm aware of sedimentary rock 3000 feet above sea level a long way from the edge of the Australian plate which is really hard to explain and therefore must be really really really old but doesn't even cause a ripple in the universal flood theory, pun intended, and about the Grand Canyon and the inland sea which formed it by flowing away. I don't have a problem with where the sea came from and why the water didn't flow away before but I guess others do if they think about it at all. All in all I think there are quite enough wooden witches floating around already and I really have no need to explain how to turn wood in opal or lead into gold, both of which are I'm sure entirely possible as neither have any bearing on the topic at hand. ;)
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
you sure can use quite a pile of words to say nothing I say the bible is a parable. Allegorical even. A collection written by man. But a good collection. Assembled largely while in captivity in Babylon. 6000 years, heh. Not logical.
This statement was never false.
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you sure can use quite a pile of words to say nothing I say the bible is a parable. Allegorical even. A collection written by man. But a good collection. Assembled largely while in captivity in Babylon. 6000 years, heh. Not logical.
This statement was never false.
The Bible certainly contains parables but it is much more that. It also contains, history, poetry, song, prophesy and letters. It was written down both before and after the captiviy in Babylon and the book of Daniel possibly during that time. The first five books date back to Moses at least, the historical books are essentially in order with some overlap and the authorship and or dating of most of the others is clear with a few notable exceptions like Job which you could possibly justify as allegorical as it is hard to pin to a particular period or place. Some people believe it is very old and may also date back to the original phase of the text, probably written down by Aaron at Moses direction.
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
6000 years
Where do you get that from?
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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Okay, first of all one of the biggest problems in Christianity is division, and I am not trying to cause this. We are saying the same thing, you just haven't seen that yet.
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
That you could get cancer from demon actions against you.
Was not Job afflicted by the Devil?
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
He bound them. He conquered.
Yes, completely agree but when does a person began to inherit that victory? I am not trying to say that demons have power over us. What I am saying is that, if we give room or opportunity to demons they will exercise what power they have.
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
So, quote me some scripture.
What would you like? I shall research it to night when I get home and post back.
God Bless, Jason
Paul Conrad wrote:
Chuck Norris keeps the hamsters going whenever Chris is gone on vacation. Just stares them down and they keep the servers going
jason_lakewhitney wrote:
We are saying the same thing, you just haven't seen that yet.
No we are not. I am saying that demons have no influence since pentacost. None. You are saying they still do. If you let them, or are not saved. If they are bound then they can't. You can't be bound and free at the same time.
jason_lakewhitney wrote:
Was not Job afflicted by the Devil?
jason_lakewhitney wrote:
Yes, completely agree but when does a person began to inherit that victory?
Was Job not Old Testament? I'm talking after Pentecost. Was not Job referenced by Jesus during his ministry? What do you mean? If they are conquered then they are conquered. Or are you suggesting they are tools to afflict the unbelievers? Is this the mercy of the son as is referenced in the father?
jason_lakewhitney wrote:
What I am saying is that, if we give room or opportunity to demons they will exercise what power they have.
And I am saying that after Pentecost they have no power. If they still have power then they were NOT defeated.
jason_lakewhitney wrote:
What would you like? I shall research it to night when I get home and post back.
Scripture that validates your view. Scripture that states by Jesus that you can be afflicted by Demons after Pentecost.
This statement was never false.
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Scripture does not spell out the powers or the limitations of Demons beyond making clear that the devil himself is chained, i.e. limited, but not impotent. In fact it specifically forbids investigation into this area of knowledge under the ban on divination. It is neither wise nor safe. How do you support your claim that the evil one has no purchase on the minds of the unsaved since the resurrection? This is clearly not so, possession still occurs today and the Devil is far from impotent in the world and the minds of men. The teachings of Jesus make it crystal clear that not all will be saved, many will take the broad road to destruction. If evil had no hold on anyone born in the last 2000 years we would already be living in paradise.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Bullshit. If Scripture doesn't spell it out then you can't infer it with accuracy. And I said nothing of Evil. Only of Demons. They are either bound and defeated or not. And we would certainly not live in a paradise, as that's entirely up to us. Not demons nor angels. We still have to make the choices to bring it about. And that starts with the gospel of brotherhood of man under the fatherhood of God. Where in the bible does it specifically state the ban on divination? Where does it state that we can get cancer from demons? (This is what I am refuting.) Being time based creatures perfection isn't even possible. Only growth is.
This statement was never false.
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jason_lakewhitney wrote:
We are saying the same thing, you just haven't seen that yet.
No we are not. I am saying that demons have no influence since pentacost. None. You are saying they still do. If you let them, or are not saved. If they are bound then they can't. You can't be bound and free at the same time.
jason_lakewhitney wrote:
Was not Job afflicted by the Devil?
jason_lakewhitney wrote:
Yes, completely agree but when does a person began to inherit that victory?
Was Job not Old Testament? I'm talking after Pentecost. Was not Job referenced by Jesus during his ministry? What do you mean? If they are conquered then they are conquered. Or are you suggesting they are tools to afflict the unbelievers? Is this the mercy of the son as is referenced in the father?
jason_lakewhitney wrote:
What I am saying is that, if we give room or opportunity to demons they will exercise what power they have.
And I am saying that after Pentecost they have no power. If they still have power then they were NOT defeated.
jason_lakewhitney wrote:
What would you like? I shall research it to night when I get home and post back.
Scripture that validates your view. Scripture that states by Jesus that you can be afflicted by Demons after Pentecost.
This statement was never false.
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
I am saying that demons have no influence since pentacost.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Ephesians 6:12 KJV
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
Or are you suggesting they are tools to afflict the unbelievers?
If you are implying that I said God uses demons to afflict the unbelievers, then you should read back over what I said.
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
And I am saying that after Pentecost they have no power. If they still have power then they were NOT defeated.
I am saying they of no authority to unless given but do have the power to afflict Man. 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. Ephesians 1:21-23 KJV Think about it. Don't quickly responded to this post. Think about what I am saying. I think you are confusing the word power with authority. I am talking about authority to do something, while you are talking about the power (ability or strength) to do something.
God Bless, Jason
Paul Conrad wrote:
Chuck Norris keeps the hamsters going whenever Chris is gone on vacation. Just stares them down and they keep the servers going
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Bullshit. If Scripture doesn't spell it out then you can't infer it with accuracy. And I said nothing of Evil. Only of Demons. They are either bound and defeated or not. And we would certainly not live in a paradise, as that's entirely up to us. Not demons nor angels. We still have to make the choices to bring it about. And that starts with the gospel of brotherhood of man under the fatherhood of God. Where in the bible does it specifically state the ban on divination? Where does it state that we can get cancer from demons? (This is what I am refuting.) Being time based creatures perfection isn't even possible. Only growth is.
This statement was never false.
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
They are either bound and defeated or not.
No, chained, limited, doomed, their war is lost but not impotent. If you go stand in the prison yard and pull faces at the murders do you think the fact they've been caught and convicted is going to protect you? Pentecost changes nothing for the unbeliever. You would need evidence for that to claim the situation of demonic activity clearly evident in the gospels had changed. The lack of a statement that it hadn't proves nothing.
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
Where in the bible does it specifically state the ban on divination?
Deuteronomy 18:10 "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witch-craft,"
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
Where does it state that we can get cancer from demons? (This is what I am refuting.)
It does not state that we can or cannot. I know of at least one case of a demonically caused heart attack but that is neither here nor there. You cannot state it categorically one way or the other because
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
Scripture doesn't spell it out
but the evidence leads me to say probably yes. It is certainly not the usual or only cause.
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
Being time based creatures perfection isn't even possible. Only growth is.
Being time based has little to do with it. We are born in sin as you know well and into a fallen world.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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No, but I have a good nose for BS.
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This is about the most ignorant argument for creationism that I have seen yet. http://www.demonbuster.com/id.html From the site: Evolution theory (with no scientific proof) - in recent times, man has been arguing about where HUMANS/LIFE came from. But no one is asking - WHO put the world here? WHERE did mountains come from? WHERE did the oceans come from? WHERE did the sun and moon and other planets come from? WHO put all this stuff there? Seems like these questions override where humans/life came from, and gives the real answer - a Higher Power - Intelligent Design - God!
The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. - John Adams
Add to that: Who put a watertight@rsehole in the sharks? That ought to add a powerful punch to arguments in favor of Intelligent Design.
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Add to that: Who put a watertight@rsehole in the sharks? That ought to add a powerful punch to arguments in favor of Intelligent Design.
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I didn't know sharks had email addresses.
The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. - John Adams
If electrical appliances can have IP addresses, there is no reason for sharks not to have e-mail addresses.
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Chris-Kaiser wrote:
I am saying that demons have no influence since pentacost.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Ephesians 6:12 KJV
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
Or are you suggesting they are tools to afflict the unbelievers?
If you are implying that I said God uses demons to afflict the unbelievers, then you should read back over what I said.
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
And I am saying that after Pentecost they have no power. If they still have power then they were NOT defeated.
I am saying they of no authority to unless given but do have the power to afflict Man. 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. Ephesians 1:21-23 KJV Think about it. Don't quickly responded to this post. Think about what I am saying. I think you are confusing the word power with authority. I am talking about authority to do something, while you are talking about the power (ability or strength) to do something.
God Bless, Jason
Paul Conrad wrote:
Chuck Norris keeps the hamsters going whenever Chris is gone on vacation. Just stares them down and they keep the servers going
Bullshit. I'm talking about what Jesus did. You are talking about what Paul wrote. If these principalities and powers are something we have to strive against, then Jesus didn't have the power to reign them in. Then he isn't all powerful. But, Jesus won the battle during his 40 days. He either has the power or doesn't. No demon has the ability to get into my mind. You can wrestle with them if you like, but I refuse to, as I only wrestle with myself. Anything dark in my life has come from me. My own projections, or misunderstandings, but mostly from dwelling on negative things such that that dwelling brought it to surface. We need to take responsibility for our own dark sides instead of foisting it onto some external source. Sorry, but I will just disagree with you on this one. You won't win this battle. And I don't prescribe to Paul's (Saul the tent maker) interpretation of the Master's teachings. He wasn't even an apostle. Yet he has the dominant voice. Interesting isn't it? That one who didn't travel with Jesus knows the most?
This statement was never false.
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Chris-Kaiser wrote:
They are either bound and defeated or not.
No, chained, limited, doomed, their war is lost but not impotent. If you go stand in the prison yard and pull faces at the murders do you think the fact they've been caught and convicted is going to protect you? Pentecost changes nothing for the unbeliever. You would need evidence for that to claim the situation of demonic activity clearly evident in the gospels had changed. The lack of a statement that it hadn't proves nothing.
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
Where in the bible does it specifically state the ban on divination?
Deuteronomy 18:10 "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witch-craft,"
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
Where does it state that we can get cancer from demons? (This is what I am refuting.)
It does not state that we can or cannot. I know of at least one case of a demonically caused heart attack but that is neither here nor there. You cannot state it categorically one way or the other because
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
Scripture doesn't spell it out
but the evidence leads me to say probably yes. It is certainly not the usual or only cause.
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
Being time based creatures perfection isn't even possible. Only growth is.
Being time based has little to do with it. We are born in sin as you know well and into a fallen world.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Being time based has little to do with it. We are born in sin as you know well and into a fallen world.
Bullshit. Stop putting words into my mouth. I don't well know it. The weeds and the fruit are allowed to grow side by side as they will get sorted upon harvest.
This statement was never false.
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Bullshit. I'm talking about what Jesus did. You are talking about what Paul wrote. If these principalities and powers are something we have to strive against, then Jesus didn't have the power to reign them in. Then he isn't all powerful. But, Jesus won the battle during his 40 days. He either has the power or doesn't. No demon has the ability to get into my mind. You can wrestle with them if you like, but I refuse to, as I only wrestle with myself. Anything dark in my life has come from me. My own projections, or misunderstandings, but mostly from dwelling on negative things such that that dwelling brought it to surface. We need to take responsibility for our own dark sides instead of foisting it onto some external source. Sorry, but I will just disagree with you on this one. You won't win this battle. And I don't prescribe to Paul's (Saul the tent maker) interpretation of the Master's teachings. He wasn't even an apostle. Yet he has the dominant voice. Interesting isn't it? That one who didn't travel with Jesus knows the most?
This statement was never false.
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
Jesus won the battle during his 40 days.
If Christ defeated Hell during his 40 days in the wilderness, then why did he die on the cross. For if He had the victory before the cross, the why die on the cross.
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
You won't win this battle.
I am not in a battle with you. If you don't like what I say, then you don't like it and vice-versa. But there is not a battle.
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
I'm talking about what Jesus did.
- And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mark 16:15-18 KJV Also, friend be careful what you are calling BS. I hope that you are not referring to the Bible.
God Bless, Jason
Paul Conrad wrote:
Chuck Norris keeps the hamsters going whenever Chris is gone on vacation. Just stares them down and they keep the servers going
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Chris-Kaiser wrote:
Jesus won the battle during his 40 days.
If Christ defeated Hell during his 40 days in the wilderness, then why did he die on the cross. For if He had the victory before the cross, the why die on the cross.
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
You won't win this battle.
I am not in a battle with you. If you don't like what I say, then you don't like it and vice-versa. But there is not a battle.
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
I'm talking about what Jesus did.
- And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mark 16:15-18 KJV Also, friend be careful what you are calling BS. I hope that you are not referring to the Bible.
God Bless, Jason
Paul Conrad wrote:
Chuck Norris keeps the hamsters going whenever Chris is gone on vacation. Just stares them down and they keep the servers going
Its my right to call any text BS. And anything from Paul I view with skepticism. I actually think for myself in this regard. If I'm punished for that then so be it. I'd gladly pay for that. The texts are conflicting. Jesus didn't demand baptism. That was John's domain. He did support it, but not as a requirement. Faith is the only requirement. I don't believe in hell. Sorry. I just don't. Jesus preached a merciful father. Hell contradicts that and no amount of sophistry will change my view. Jesus died on the cross because humans decided to kill him. He lived a human life and drank full that cup. To fully live the life of a human to gain the understanding of life in his creation he lived a fully human life. He could have escaped had he chosen that course, but decided against it as this life was to live the will of the Father and that was to live a fully human life but bring a greater understanding of the Father and our relationship to him. Never in his speech did he say he was to die for our sins. That is entirely interpretation. And I would wager, Paul's doing. By the way, how do you interpret "They will take up serpents..." in the passage you quote above?
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Add to that: Who put a watertight@rsehole in the sharks? That ought to add a powerful punch to arguments in favor of Intelligent Design.
Why? Does yours leak when you go swimming? Does your own butt fill up with water? Do you only have to go for a swim to get an enema? :laugh:
This statement was never false.
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Its my right to call any text BS. And anything from Paul I view with skepticism. I actually think for myself in this regard. If I'm punished for that then so be it. I'd gladly pay for that. The texts are conflicting. Jesus didn't demand baptism. That was John's domain. He did support it, but not as a requirement. Faith is the only requirement. I don't believe in hell. Sorry. I just don't. Jesus preached a merciful father. Hell contradicts that and no amount of sophistry will change my view. Jesus died on the cross because humans decided to kill him. He lived a human life and drank full that cup. To fully live the life of a human to gain the understanding of life in his creation he lived a fully human life. He could have escaped had he chosen that course, but decided against it as this life was to live the will of the Father and that was to live a fully human life but bring a greater understanding of the Father and our relationship to him. Never in his speech did he say he was to die for our sins. That is entirely interpretation. And I would wager, Paul's doing. By the way, how do you interpret "They will take up serpents..." in the passage you quote above?
Well then we should end this conversation. Until the next one... BTW, to this was not a battle but a good conversation.
God Bless, Jason
Paul Conrad wrote:
Chuck Norris keeps the hamsters going whenever Chris is gone on vacation. Just stares them down and they keep the servers going