21st Century Socialism
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
Patriot Act, illegal wiretapping, Git'mo, etc.
all legal and constituitional.
I'm always curious why conservatives consider this a closed issue. It is not, not by a long shot. It goes the other direction, too, that it's not clear it IS a violation of the law. Yet prudence would seem to air on the side of caution, rather than running roughshod over people's rights. Also, if Gitmo is legal.. why not just shoot every one of them and be done with it? Why bother with the farce of a trial to begin with? If they're not uniformed combatants so the Geneva Conventions don't apply, and if they aren't entitled to human rights, why not just shoot them and save ourselves the trouble? I'm really not trying to troll with that question. I really wonder the answer.
Valid questions, let me take a shot, but it probably won't be a really definitive answer. Regarding the Patriot Act I'm operating on the assumption that setting aside all of the noise raised in protest that if it were unconsituitional it would have been challenged immediately and the Supreme Court would have struck it down. It has been 4 o5 5 years and no real challenge has been offered. I don't offer myself as a constituitional scholar, just operating from what I think is a common sense approach. Regarding GITMO you have a holding facility for combatants captured on a battlefield. Realistically (and I honestly believe this) we could have shot them instead of capturing them and transporting them to GITMO. I don't think capture versus shoot was done for any humane reason but rather it was done on the basis that those captured had information we needed. Chances are, for the most part we now have everything those captured have to offer. I also believe (possibly irrationally) that the information obtained, saved American lives. Now it is a question of what you do with these people. Releasing them while we're still in a shooting war doesn't make sense to me, that is like re-equipping your enemy. The end result is we're caught in an awkward position. We're too moral to simply kill them and releasing them makes no real sense. I personally think the idea of tribunals and or trial is simply a delaying tactic because the idea is to simpy keep them off of a battlefield (or out of a bomb factory) as long as possible. fyi - we did the same thing in WWII. I lived in Dallas for a long time and remeber meeting a one time prisoner of war, a German, who was held in a facility in the Dallas area. He either came back to the states or stayed in the states once he was released. Not necessarily a good set of answers, I just happen to agree with the administration's approach.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Isn't relativism beautiful? :rolleyes: What a load of tripe.
Red Stateler wrote:
Isn't relativism beautiful? What a load of tripe.
Was this a mis-post, or am I reading it wrong? Seems like a complete non-sequitur - IS relativism beautiful? WHAT is a load of old tripe? It doesn't even seem related to the post I made about the suppression of dissent within democracies. WTF???
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IamChrisMcCall wrote:
Thanks for your little story of how some people in your family used to be able to ranch or something. Too bad you didn't carry on in any authentic way. I know how to rope and ride because that's how we did branding on the working ranch I lived on. Please, fill me in on the ways of rural living. Maybe your great-great-grandfather (the last of your rotten seed to live off the land) told a story some time while you were in earshot! How many head of cattle on the Shannon ranch? And no, your fat family members don't count! Listen, boy, don't try to tell me about rural life from behind your 400 channels of satellite TV and squeaky-clean pickup truck. I have fed cattle in 50 degrees below zero, in order to get food for myself. I told you, son, you are outclassed. By a wine-and-cheese pussy-ass faggot liberal, too! Extra embarassing for you! Not only am I more at home in the streets than you are, I can out-country you too! You've never met a poor man who was much of a roper? You want to? I know plenty and they'd love to hear all about how they're full of sh*t.
Just as I thought. You're the same kind of hypocritical rich kid I grew up around who pretended to be tough because their dad owned a little more farm land then my Dad did. Well, you're right. My dad sold all his horses during the great depression and the dust bowl so he could feed my older siblings. I'm sure that makes you feel better, you being so concerned for the poor and all. And you can introduce me to all the poor folks you know out on your ranch. I'm probably kin to most of them.
Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority.
Stan Shannon wrote:
You're the same kind of hypocritical rich kid I grew up around
Ha, you didn't grow up anywhere near me, I can assure you. I grew up in the ghetto and moved to the country as a teenager. You wouldn't have lasted a second in either environment. I was never a "rich kid". Your pre-conceptions of liberals betray you here. I care for the poor because I was (and am, by conservative standards) poor or working-class. I care for minorities because I grew up with them.
Stan Shannon wrote:
And you can introduce me to all the poor folks you know out on your ranch. I'm probably kin to most of them.
Yeah, OK, whatever.
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Thats actually my read also. I just like egging him own. Next he'll be telling me how he personally saved the ol' ranch house from a stampede or something and than got down with the hood in the streets of New York. What a guy! :laugh: I can tell from the way he talks that he knows sqat about cow county. I don't claim to be much of a farm hand, the truth is I hate farm work, but at least I know the culture and he sure as hell doesn't reflect any of it.
Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority.
Stan Shannon wrote:
he sure as hell doesn't reflect any of it.
Proof positive you are full of shit. I lived on a ranch in northwestern montana. Black Angus and Hereford cattle. 240 head. 14 horses, quarterhorses, mustangs and paint. I can rope from horseback, saddle my own ride, and have birthed calves in freezing cold. I didn't wake up at 4AM every morning, including Christmas, for years to have some fat internet nerd question my authenticity.
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IamChrisMcCall wrote:
Because the Holy See says so! Don't question your government, question your Church? You are everything that's wrongwith the American Catholic Church.
Where did I say I don't question my government. I specifically said all Americans do. I'm criticizing the content of your criticisms, which are faulty.
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
Really, I'm a Socialist? News to me, but I'd like for you to show me which encyclical was more recent, the one about Socialism or the one about the Death Penalty. Which does the Church hate more, murder or Socialism?
I'm not going to hide my opinions behind the Catholic Church. I'm not a huge advocate for or against the death penalty. I think it's a political decision vested with the people, and I have no problem either way. But since the Pope actively fought communists, but didn't make a huge deal about America's death penalty, I'd suspect it despises socialism more.
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
I don't, but I can hazard a pretty good guess at how He likes prisoners to be treated, and I doubt He's real into torture. What do you think? Do you think He'll listen to the subtleties about stress positions and waterboarding? God's never really been a "letter of the law" kinda guy. He's more about the spirit of things. Good luck, though, let me know how it all goes
Bush tortured people? Really?
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
You're the one calling social programs "charity". All I want is to make sure no one starves in the street over your bullsh*t ideals. However, I'm sure you give so much to charity that I shouldn't be worried.
FYI, temperance is a cardinal virtue according to the Church. Did you decide to leave that off your tray this week? But yes, socialism is most definately a substitute for charity as it feeds the hungry and clothes the poor. I thought that's what Christian charity did. Hmmmmm...Well I guess the state should do that.
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
You still haven't explained how I want the government to say Mass. Care to explain that?
That's the point. Socialism strives to displace (do you know what that word means?) religion. It therefore has no need to conduct mass of any sort. And that is why it is so despised by the Catholic Church.
Red Stateler wrote:
I'm not a huge advocate for or against the death penalty.
Way to be a cafeteria Catholic.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
he sure as hell doesn't reflect any of it.
Proof positive you are full of shit. I lived on a ranch in northwestern montana. Black Angus and Hereford cattle. 240 head. 14 horses, quarterhorses, mustangs and paint. I can rope from horseback, saddle my own ride, and have birthed calves in freezing cold. I didn't wake up at 4AM every morning, including Christmas, for years to have some fat internet nerd question my authenticity.
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
I lived on a ranch in northwestern montana.
Who owned it and how did they mark their livestock?
Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
You're the same kind of hypocritical rich kid I grew up around
Ha, you didn't grow up anywhere near me, I can assure you. I grew up in the ghetto and moved to the country as a teenager. You wouldn't have lasted a second in either environment. I was never a "rich kid". Your pre-conceptions of liberals betray you here. I care for the poor because I was (and am, by conservative standards) poor or working-class. I care for minorities because I grew up with them.
Stan Shannon wrote:
And you can introduce me to all the poor folks you know out on your ranch. I'm probably kin to most of them.
Yeah, OK, whatever.
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
I care for the poor because I was (and am, by conservative standards) poor or working-class.
Well, welcome to the club, punk. I really don't give a good goddamned what your background is. But I have met a million struting fools just like you in my life, so I would assume that even you have enough intelligence to understand that nothing you say is likely to be believed by anyone. The real irony of your inane rambling is that the industry you are so proud to have been part of is the most heavily subsidized in the entire nation. Whatever rancher you supposedly worked for probably did get more money from the government than he paid in taxes. I've been on several working ranches (generally roofing their huge new houses in 120 degree heat) and I've never seen one of those guys on horseback. They waddle out of the huge tax payer subsidized pickups, complaining about the heat (or the cold) on their way to their huge heated/airconditioned, tax subsidized tractor/combine/loader. I spent the first 40 years of my life living and working in the west and the only places that even remotely fit what you are describing are dude ranches or camps for troubled children. Which were you? And frankly, I don't think you know the first fucking thing about real poverty. If even a tad of the real culture of the west had attached itself to you, you would know that westerners prize rugged individualism above all else. And that ain't something you are going to get from socialism. So, sorry, but there is simply something about what you are claiming that just does not add up.
Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority.
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IamChrisMcCall wrote:
I care for the poor because I was (and am, by conservative standards) poor or working-class.
Well, welcome to the club, punk. I really don't give a good goddamned what your background is. But I have met a million struting fools just like you in my life, so I would assume that even you have enough intelligence to understand that nothing you say is likely to be believed by anyone. The real irony of your inane rambling is that the industry you are so proud to have been part of is the most heavily subsidized in the entire nation. Whatever rancher you supposedly worked for probably did get more money from the government than he paid in taxes. I've been on several working ranches (generally roofing their huge new houses in 120 degree heat) and I've never seen one of those guys on horseback. They waddle out of the huge tax payer subsidized pickups, complaining about the heat (or the cold) on their way to their huge heated/airconditioned, tax subsidized tractor/combine/loader. I spent the first 40 years of my life living and working in the west and the only places that even remotely fit what you are describing are dude ranches or camps for troubled children. Which were you? And frankly, I don't think you know the first fucking thing about real poverty. If even a tad of the real culture of the west had attached itself to you, you would know that westerners prize rugged individualism above all else. And that ain't something you are going to get from socialism. So, sorry, but there is simply something about what you are claiming that just does not add up.
Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority.
Stan Shannon wrote:
I really don't give a good goddamned what your background is.
Oh all of a sudden, now you don't. You spew hundreds of words trying to discredit me, and when you find out (to your embarassment) that I am more authenticly rural than you are, you suddenly don't care! Magic!
Stan Shannon wrote:
Whatever rancher you supposedly worked for
Yeah, "supposedly", but you still don't care about my background, huh? Then you go on to defame small agribusiness for being subsidised? I thought you came from a long line of Okie white trash that scratched a miserable living out of the red dirt your former home calls "scenery". Now you're trying to shit on small ranches for taking handouts? Do you care about me or not care? Are you "salt of the Earth" or just another welfare recipient? I guess it varies from post to post, sentence to sentence!
Stan Shannon wrote:
I've been on several working ranches (generally roofing their huge new houses in 120 degree heat) and I've never seen one of those guys on horseback.
Dude, the list of things you've never seen could fill a hundred Bibles. Why would I care what you haven't seen? That's the whole point, that you've sheltered yourself from reality so much that you can't comprehend someone like me: equally at home in the inner city or on Forest Service land. :)
Stan Shannon wrote:
And frankly, I don't think you know the first f****ing thing about real poverty.
There you go again, guessing at things you don't know about. I am not going to sit here and embarass you for being wrong again, only to have you come back and say you don't care in the first place. Just take my word for it: I know poverty.
Stan Shannon wrote:
So, sorry, but there is simply something about what you are claiming that just does not add up.
Listen, seriously, just stop. You've never been anywhere, you've never done anything. You're not going to win this. You've developed your narrow views because of your lack of life experience. I'm sure there's things you know more about than I do. Life is just not one of them.
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IamChrisMcCall wrote:
I lived on a ranch in northwestern montana.
Who owned it and how did they mark their livestock?
Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority.
Give me a break, like I'm going to give you names and brands over the internet? What's your boss' phone number so I can verify your employment? :laugh: It was a shoulder brand, and I applied it hundreds of times. The ranch in question was near Lake Kalispell on the Salish-Kootenai Indian Reservation.
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IamChrisMcCall wrote:
I told you, son, you are outclassed. By a wine-and-cheese p***-a** f***** liberal, too! Extra embarassing for you!
I censored that out for you because I know that you didn't mean to post that. As a Catholic, I'm sure you condemn rage and pride, but advocate temperance...
Please, don't talk to me about my Church. You never go to Mass and have no love in your heart for your fellow man. That's so much more profane than the word "pussy", and you probably have no problem with the word "faggot", as long as you're using it to defame homosexuals.
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Give me a break, like I'm going to give you names and brands over the internet? What's your boss' phone number so I can verify your employment? :laugh: It was a shoulder brand, and I applied it hundreds of times. The ranch in question was near Lake Kalispell on the Salish-Kootenai Indian Reservation.
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
What's your boss' phone number so I can verify your employment?
No problem. Here are two places I've worked in the past: http://www.captivasoftware.com/[^] http://www.epa.gov/ada/[^] Cattle brands are a matter of public record (thats sort of the entire purpose of having them) Montana, like most states, maintain a searchable registry of brands. Should be no problem to mention it.
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
The ranch in question was near Lake Kalispell on the Salish-Kootenai Indian Reservation
Like this [^] one? So you stroll onto a ranch on an Indian reservation and get hired as a ranch hand? One wonders that none of the locals were up to the job. I suppose they were impressed by your street smarts and your brilliant rhetorical skills. :rolleyes:
Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
I really don't give a good goddamned what your background is.
Oh all of a sudden, now you don't. You spew hundreds of words trying to discredit me, and when you find out (to your embarassment) that I am more authenticly rural than you are, you suddenly don't care! Magic!
Stan Shannon wrote:
Whatever rancher you supposedly worked for
Yeah, "supposedly", but you still don't care about my background, huh? Then you go on to defame small agribusiness for being subsidised? I thought you came from a long line of Okie white trash that scratched a miserable living out of the red dirt your former home calls "scenery". Now you're trying to shit on small ranches for taking handouts? Do you care about me or not care? Are you "salt of the Earth" or just another welfare recipient? I guess it varies from post to post, sentence to sentence!
Stan Shannon wrote:
I've been on several working ranches (generally roofing their huge new houses in 120 degree heat) and I've never seen one of those guys on horseback.
Dude, the list of things you've never seen could fill a hundred Bibles. Why would I care what you haven't seen? That's the whole point, that you've sheltered yourself from reality so much that you can't comprehend someone like me: equally at home in the inner city or on Forest Service land. :)
Stan Shannon wrote:
And frankly, I don't think you know the first f****ing thing about real poverty.
There you go again, guessing at things you don't know about. I am not going to sit here and embarass you for being wrong again, only to have you come back and say you don't care in the first place. Just take my word for it: I know poverty.
Stan Shannon wrote:
So, sorry, but there is simply something about what you are claiming that just does not add up.
Listen, seriously, just stop. You've never been anywhere, you've never done anything. You're not going to win this. You've developed your narrow views because of your lack of life experience. I'm sure there's things you know more about than I do. Life is just not one of them.
Actually, I'm pretty sure I've got you entirely out classed in the 'I'm from a rural back ground' category. In fact, if what you have cited is all you have done, your background seems extremely limited. At least I had seen a good part of the world by the time I was 23, which included two tours in vietnam (with the Navy, I saw no combat,just for full disclosure), worked on farms, ridden a motorcycle from Oklahoma to North Dakota, helped build several houses, got beat up by a drunk red neck in Georgia. Since then I've driven trucks, worked in the oil patch, commanded a field artillery battery in the national guard, been head librarian for a EPA research lab, and worked for any number of successful software companies. Buried friends and family. Got married, had a family, kids in college. Thats not so bad. Truthfully, I've never met anyone with a more limited background than you seem to have at your age.
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
I thought you came from a long line of Okie white trash that scratched a miserable living out of the red dirt your former home calls "scenery". Now you're trying to sh*t on small ranches for taking handouts? Do you care about me or not care?
Precisely. When my family realized they could no longer farm without mooching off the government, they sold the land and went into another line of work, like the honorable, hard working people they were. If you knew anything at all about the culture you claim to be part of, you would know that farmers and ranchers don't get a hell of a lot of respect from the real working people of the west. But lets examine another insult you make to grass roots American culture. You have insulted the great American middle class, you insult 'white trash', you hate the president, you hate coporations, one wonders what it is about America that you 'love' as you claimed above. You seem to hate everything about America. You even side with those who try to undermine our nation's efforts to undermine a government dedicated to the same principles which you claim your grandfather died fighting against. Clearly, you are just another example of the pathetic legions dedicated to transforming this country into your vision of a Marxist utopia. Your treason knows no limit.
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
There you go again, guessing at things you don't know about. I am not going to sit here and embarass you for being wrong again, only to have you come back and say you d
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IamChrisMcCall wrote:
What's your boss' phone number so I can verify your employment?
No problem. Here are two places I've worked in the past: http://www.captivasoftware.com/[^] http://www.epa.gov/ada/[^] Cattle brands are a matter of public record (thats sort of the entire purpose of having them) Montana, like most states, maintain a searchable registry of brands. Should be no problem to mention it.
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
The ranch in question was near Lake Kalispell on the Salish-Kootenai Indian Reservation
Like this [^] one? So you stroll onto a ranch on an Indian reservation and get hired as a ranch hand? One wonders that none of the locals were up to the job. I suppose they were impressed by your street smarts and your brilliant rhetorical skills. :rolleyes:
Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Cattle brands are a matter of public record (thats sort of the entire purpose of having them) Montana, like most states, maintain a searchable registry of brands. Should be no problem to mention it.
I don't own the brand, so yes, it is a problem to mention it on the public internet. Anyone crazy enough to pursue me for information like this cannot be trusted with the personal info of a former employer and family member. Quite frankly, Stan, I feel I have angered you, and you seem like a stalker. You are a little unbalanced and you appear to be coming unhinged in front of my eyes. No offense intended, but I'm a little worried about what you might do with personal information about my family.
Stan Shannon wrote:
So you stroll onto a ranch on an Indian reservation and get hired as a ranch hand?
I am not going to tell you my life story, Stan. You and anyone else reading this can tell that I have lots of agricultural experience. Please, just let it go, you are embarassing yourself. Act like an adult, admit to yourself that you misjudged someone due to pre-conceived notions and lack of information, and just move on. If you can't deal with this sort of thing without going way off-topic and getting, well, a little crazy, I am going to have to start ignoring your posts from now on. I can't put my family at risk of harassment just to prove something to an internet whackjob. Don't be an internet whackjob, Stan.
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Actually, I'm pretty sure I've got you entirely out classed in the 'I'm from a rural back ground' category. In fact, if what you have cited is all you have done, your background seems extremely limited. At least I had seen a good part of the world by the time I was 23, which included two tours in vietnam (with the Navy, I saw no combat,just for full disclosure), worked on farms, ridden a motorcycle from Oklahoma to North Dakota, helped build several houses, got beat up by a drunk red neck in Georgia. Since then I've driven trucks, worked in the oil patch, commanded a field artillery battery in the national guard, been head librarian for a EPA research lab, and worked for any number of successful software companies. Buried friends and family. Got married, had a family, kids in college. Thats not so bad. Truthfully, I've never met anyone with a more limited background than you seem to have at your age.
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
I thought you came from a long line of Okie white trash that scratched a miserable living out of the red dirt your former home calls "scenery". Now you're trying to sh*t on small ranches for taking handouts? Do you care about me or not care?
Precisely. When my family realized they could no longer farm without mooching off the government, they sold the land and went into another line of work, like the honorable, hard working people they were. If you knew anything at all about the culture you claim to be part of, you would know that farmers and ranchers don't get a hell of a lot of respect from the real working people of the west. But lets examine another insult you make to grass roots American culture. You have insulted the great American middle class, you insult 'white trash', you hate the president, you hate coporations, one wonders what it is about America that you 'love' as you claimed above. You seem to hate everything about America. You even side with those who try to undermine our nation's efforts to undermine a government dedicated to the same principles which you claim your grandfather died fighting against. Clearly, you are just another example of the pathetic legions dedicated to transforming this country into your vision of a Marxist utopia. Your treason knows no limit.
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
There you go again, guessing at things you don't know about. I am not going to sit here and embarass you for being wrong again, only to have you come back and say you d
Stan Shannon wrote:
Hey, I can keep this sh*t up all day long. I've got nothing better to do at all.
That makes me sad, Stan, and I think it's making you crazy :(
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Please, don't talk to me about my Church. You never go to Mass and have no love in your heart for your fellow man. That's so much more profane than the word "pussy", and you probably have no problem with the word "faggot", as long as you're using it to defame homosexuals.
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
Please, don't talk to me about my Church.
"Your" Church? I think the Pope would take issue with you laying claim to the Catholic Church. Just like how he would take issue with your leftist views which are completely incompatible with the Catholic Church and which Catholicism has so fervently fought for a century.