The Other War: Iraq Vets Bear Witness
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Patrick Sears wrote:
To hear many Americans talk about it though, you'd think they were blind, the refusal to consider one's own place in the outcome of events. Every event is an opportunity for introspection yet that seems to be the one activity in which Americans categorically refuse to engage.
Golly. You're right. I'm going to reflect on how our international policy prompted the bombing of Pearl Harbor.
Red Stateler wrote:
Golly. You're right. I'm going to reflect on how our international policy prompted the bombing of Pearl Harbor.
That's a fallacy. I didn't say introspection will always lead you to conclude that you did something wrong. It's equally as valuable to learn that you couldn't have done anything differently. Of course there are times when we're not responsible for what happens, that's life. I'd say WWII falls under that category. Hitler and Japan wanted the own the world so badly they could taste it, and there's not a damn thing we could have done to prevent the war. Hell, maybe there's nothing we could have done differently in the past 30 years in the Middle East, either. But I think it's valuable to know whether we could have, and a great many Americans get furious when anyone asks that question. All I'm saying is, take the opportunity to introspect, so that IF you've made a mistake you can correct, you are actually aware of it.
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Patrick Sears wrote:
To hear many Americans talk about it though, you'd think they were blind, the refusal to consider one's own place in the outcome of events. Every event is an opportunity for introspection yet that seems to be the one activity in which Americans categorically refuse to engage.
Golly. You're right. I'm going to reflect on how our international policy prompted the bombing of Pearl Harbor.
Yeah, but he does have a point, Red. As you may have gathered I am quite prepared to back the USA up, but nevertheless you (as a nation) would do well to wake up to the rest of the world, and how it sees you. 9/11 did not happen - as many Americans seemed to think at the time - in a vacuum, without reason. (That doesn't justify it, but an explanation and a justification are two different things.)
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Fred_Smith wrote:
Sorry to offend the Jesus crowd, but he was wrong when said "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone" - well, maybe not in the context in which it was said, but as a general rule? No - that just then becomes a formula for oppression ("You are too sinful to act, so you must do as we say.")
Jesus was speaking to those who were stoning somebody for sinning. They believed that were doing God's work by punishing the wicked for their sins, but Jesus pointed out that they were all sinners. That has absolutely nothing to do with war and international policy, which has nothing to do with sin and everything to do with protecting national interests. "Turning the other cheek" would be a more relevant concept.
Yes, I know the story and that was why I specifically said "maybe not in the context in which it was said"... but I as pointing out that you should not extrapolate this into a general rule and apply it to, for example, the USA and say "because you have done wrong therefore you have no right to criticise others" (or go to war against them...)
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Red Stateler wrote:
Golly. You're right. I'm going to reflect on how our international policy prompted the bombing of Pearl Harbor.
That's a fallacy. I didn't say introspection will always lead you to conclude that you did something wrong. It's equally as valuable to learn that you couldn't have done anything differently. Of course there are times when we're not responsible for what happens, that's life. I'd say WWII falls under that category. Hitler and Japan wanted the own the world so badly they could taste it, and there's not a damn thing we could have done to prevent the war. Hell, maybe there's nothing we could have done differently in the past 30 years in the Middle East, either. But I think it's valuable to know whether we could have, and a great many Americans get furious when anyone asks that question. All I'm saying is, take the opportunity to introspect, so that IF you've made a mistake you can correct, you are actually aware of it.
Patrick Sears wrote:
Of course there are times when we're not responsible for what happens, that's life. I'd say WWII falls under that category. Hitler and Japan wanted the own the world so badly they could taste it, and there's not a damn thing we could have done to prevent the war. Hell, maybe there's nothing we could have done differently in the past 30 years in the Middle East, either. But I think it's valuable to know whether we could have, and a great many Americans get furious when anyone asks that question.
Really? So if FDR had never enacted the oil embargo against Japan, which overtly told him that they would consider that an act of war (as it would jeopardize their fight against China and doom them as a nation)...Then Pearl Harbor would not have been prevented? :rolleyes: Japan did not want to attack the US. It was an act of desperation and they knew that doing so would seal their fate. They attacked the US because of FDR's foreign policy that was specifically designed to antagonize Japan. War is the eventual result of two groups of people with conflicting interests that cannot be resolved otherwise. Ironically, oil started WWII and yet it's viewed as somehow a virtuous war while this one is condemned. Foreign policy has a rather predictable result for a set of circumstances. We've known for decades that our policies in the Middle East antogonize Islamic extremists, but those policies also serve our interests. I'm not inclined to give the enemy the benefit of personal introspection so that I can reinterpret conflicting interests into personal flaws.
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Yeah, but he does have a point, Red. As you may have gathered I am quite prepared to back the USA up, but nevertheless you (as a nation) would do well to wake up to the rest of the world, and how it sees you. 9/11 did not happen - as many Americans seemed to think at the time - in a vacuum, without reason. (That doesn't justify it, but an explanation and a justification are two different things.)
Fred_Smith wrote:
Yeah, but he does have a point, Red. As you may have gathered I am quite prepared to back the USA up, but nevertheless you (as a nation) would do well to wake up to the rest of the world, and how it sees you. 9/11 did not happen - as many Americans seemed to think at the time - in a vacuum, without reason. (That doesn't justify it, but an explanation and a justification are two different things.)
Working in harmony with other nations is most often the best path to take for overall happiness of the American people. However, when interests collide and a foreign body decides to rebuke our interests (whether that be militarily or otherwise) in order to advance their own, it is against the interests of the American people and for the interests of the enemy to ponder our own supposed deficiencies for not acquiescing to that other nation's demands. Taken to fruition, it's downright treachery.
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Patrick Sears wrote:
Of course there are times when we're not responsible for what happens, that's life. I'd say WWII falls under that category. Hitler and Japan wanted the own the world so badly they could taste it, and there's not a damn thing we could have done to prevent the war. Hell, maybe there's nothing we could have done differently in the past 30 years in the Middle East, either. But I think it's valuable to know whether we could have, and a great many Americans get furious when anyone asks that question.
Really? So if FDR had never enacted the oil embargo against Japan, which overtly told him that they would consider that an act of war (as it would jeopardize their fight against China and doom them as a nation)...Then Pearl Harbor would not have been prevented? :rolleyes: Japan did not want to attack the US. It was an act of desperation and they knew that doing so would seal their fate. They attacked the US because of FDR's foreign policy that was specifically designed to antagonize Japan. War is the eventual result of two groups of people with conflicting interests that cannot be resolved otherwise. Ironically, oil started WWII and yet it's viewed as somehow a virtuous war while this one is condemned. Foreign policy has a rather predictable result for a set of circumstances. We've known for decades that our policies in the Middle East antogonize Islamic extremists, but those policies also serve our interests. I'm not inclined to give the enemy the benefit of personal introspection so that I can reinterpret conflicting interests into personal flaws.
Red Stateler wrote:
I'm not inclined to give the enemy the benefit of personal introspection so that I can reinterpret conflicting interests into personal flaws.
It's not for their benefit. It's for yours. You're assuming introspection's purpose is to discover flaws, it isn't.
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Fred_Smith wrote:
Yeah, but he does have a point, Red. As you may have gathered I am quite prepared to back the USA up, but nevertheless you (as a nation) would do well to wake up to the rest of the world, and how it sees you. 9/11 did not happen - as many Americans seemed to think at the time - in a vacuum, without reason. (That doesn't justify it, but an explanation and a justification are two different things.)
Working in harmony with other nations is most often the best path to take for overall happiness of the American people. However, when interests collide and a foreign body decides to rebuke our interests (whether that be militarily or otherwise) in order to advance their own, it is against the interests of the American people and for the interests of the enemy to ponder our own supposed deficiencies for not acquiescing to that other nation's demands. Taken to fruition, it's downright treachery.
Red Stateler wrote:
it is against the interests of the American people and for the interests of the enemy to ponder our own supposed deficiencies for not acquiescing to that other nation's demands.
What in the world are you talking about? Introspection would discover IF it was a deficiency to not have taken another course of action, it is NOT a process of self-flogging to get angry at yourself for having to fight. Some fights are inevitable. Introspection merely tells you which were and which weren't and how you might do better in the future. You're confusing introspection with the moral guilt of the left in America.
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Red Stateler wrote:
I'm not inclined to give the enemy the benefit of personal introspection so that I can reinterpret conflicting interests into personal flaws.
It's not for their benefit. It's for yours. You're assuming introspection's purpose is to discover flaws, it isn't.
Patrick Sears wrote:
It's not for their benefit. It's for yours. You're assuming introspection's purpose is to discover flaws, it isn't.
If you mean "learning about history" such that you can have a better idea of human nature and the eventual cause and effect of foreign policy so that informed decisions can be made about your actions, then I agree. But "introspection" means to literally look inside oneself, which I can only take to mean emotional exploration of foreign policy. You'll learn nothing about anything if you look at it that way.
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Red Stateler wrote:
it is against the interests of the American people and for the interests of the enemy to ponder our own supposed deficiencies for not acquiescing to that other nation's demands.
What in the world are you talking about? Introspection would discover IF it was a deficiency to not have taken another course of action, it is NOT a process of self-flogging to get angry at yourself for having to fight. Some fights are inevitable. Introspection merely tells you which were and which weren't and how you might do better in the future. You're confusing introspection with the moral guilt of the left in America.
Patrick Sears wrote:
What in the world are you talking about? Introspection would discover IF it was a deficiency to not have taken another course of action, it is NOT a process of self-flogging to get angry at yourself for having to fight. Some fights are inevitable. Introspection merely tells you which were and which weren't and how you might do better in the future. You're confusing introspection with the moral guilt of the left in America.
Introspection[^] 1. observation or examination of one's own mental and emotional state, mental processes, etc.; the act of looking within oneself. Are you sure "introspection" is the word you're shooting for? "Introspection" is the same as soul-searching. That has far more to do with an emotional response to whether what you did was right or wrong on a moral level than simply learning your history.
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Patrick Sears wrote:
What in the world are you talking about? Introspection would discover IF it was a deficiency to not have taken another course of action, it is NOT a process of self-flogging to get angry at yourself for having to fight. Some fights are inevitable. Introspection merely tells you which were and which weren't and how you might do better in the future. You're confusing introspection with the moral guilt of the left in America.
Introspection[^] 1. observation or examination of one's own mental and emotional state, mental processes, etc.; the act of looking within oneself. Are you sure "introspection" is the word you're shooting for? "Introspection" is the same as soul-searching. That has far more to do with an emotional response to whether what you did was right or wrong on a moral level than simply learning your history.
Yes, "Introspection" is the word I mean. It's important to reflect on one's actions and what your motivations and emotions were at the time and understand how they influenced what you've done. This is applicable on a national level too, albeit somewhat less meaningfully or effectively. That said, introspection can be taken too far. Spending all your time in your head attempting to micro-manage every aspect of your internal dialog is a waste of time and leads to emotional paralysis. Sometimes it's better to act and make a mistake than make the mistake of doing nothing. It's all a process of self knowledge though. Who knows, one decision by one person in the right place at the right time could change everything; I wouldn't want that person to be afraid of their own motivations or outright refuse to examine them. I'm pretty much speaking hypothetically, I suppose.
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Yes, "Introspection" is the word I mean. It's important to reflect on one's actions and what your motivations and emotions were at the time and understand how they influenced what you've done. This is applicable on a national level too, albeit somewhat less meaningfully or effectively. That said, introspection can be taken too far. Spending all your time in your head attempting to micro-manage every aspect of your internal dialog is a waste of time and leads to emotional paralysis. Sometimes it's better to act and make a mistake than make the mistake of doing nothing. It's all a process of self knowledge though. Who knows, one decision by one person in the right place at the right time could change everything; I wouldn't want that person to be afraid of their own motivations or outright refuse to examine them. I'm pretty much speaking hypothetically, I suppose.
Patrick Sears wrote:
Yes, "Introspection" is the word I mean.
Well then I continue to disagree that your approach is nothing but a means to diminish America's rights to protect its interests and to advance the position of those willing to oppose them. Leaders should be knowledgable about history (or have advisors that are) such that they can reasonably determine the effects of their policies. We have a presence in the Middle East, protect strategic allies their and support Israel. We know that all those things will piss off Islamic extremists and prior to 9/11 we knew that they were more than willing to commit extreme acts of terrorism. The question is whether or not those policies are worth the risk and potential price to America. If the answer is no, then you change your policies. If they answer is yes, then you don't whine and perform a personal analysis about your emotions when they attack (which should disqualify women from the presidency). You simply fight back.
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Patrick Sears wrote:
Yes, "Introspection" is the word I mean.
Well then I continue to disagree that your approach is nothing but a means to diminish America's rights to protect its interests and to advance the position of those willing to oppose them. Leaders should be knowledgable about history (or have advisors that are) such that they can reasonably determine the effects of their policies. We have a presence in the Middle East, protect strategic allies their and support Israel. We know that all those things will piss off Islamic extremists and prior to 9/11 we knew that they were more than willing to commit extreme acts of terrorism. The question is whether or not those policies are worth the risk and potential price to America. If the answer is no, then you change your policies. If they answer is yes, then you don't whine and perform a personal analysis about your emotions when they attack (which should disqualify women from the presidency). You simply fight back.
Red Stateler wrote:
If they answer is yes, then you don't whine and perform a personal analysis about your emotions when they attack. You simply fight back.
Of course you do. It's fair to ask yourself if you accurately predicted the risk, though. I'm not sure if I'm not explaining myself clearly or you're simply choosing to disagree.
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Red Stateler wrote:
If they answer is yes, then you don't whine and perform a personal analysis about your emotions when they attack. You simply fight back.
Of course you do. It's fair to ask yourself if you accurately predicted the risk, though. I'm not sure if I'm not explaining myself clearly or you're simply choosing to disagree.
Patrick Sears wrote:
Of course you do. It's fair to ask yourself if you accurately predicted the risk, though.
Well it's exactly this type of "what did we do wrong"/introspective approach that has fueled anti-war zealots. I'm all for reviewing international policy, but only so long as it's done so rationally and not based on some emotional justification for a political group's advancement.
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Patrick Sears wrote:
Of course you do. It's fair to ask yourself if you accurately predicted the risk, though.
Well it's exactly this type of "what did we do wrong"/introspective approach that has fueled anti-war zealots. I'm all for reviewing international policy, but only so long as it's done so rationally and not based on some emotional justification for a political group's advancement.
Red Stateler wrote:
Well it's exactly this type of "what did we do wrong"/introspective approach that has fueled anti-war zealots.
Maybe this is where I'm not being clear.. I'm not advocating examining what we've done wrong. I'm advocating asking ourselves IF we've done something wrong. Too many shoot from the hip and say "Yes, we're evil!" or "No, they're evil!" without really ever examining the question.
Red Stateler wrote:
I'm all for reviewing international policy, but only so long as it's done so rationally and not based on some emotional justification for a political group's advancement.
I agree.
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Red Stateler wrote:
Well it's exactly this type of "what did we do wrong"/introspective approach that has fueled anti-war zealots.
Maybe this is where I'm not being clear.. I'm not advocating examining what we've done wrong. I'm advocating asking ourselves IF we've done something wrong. Too many shoot from the hip and say "Yes, we're evil!" or "No, they're evil!" without really ever examining the question.
Red Stateler wrote:
I'm all for reviewing international policy, but only so long as it's done so rationally and not based on some emotional justification for a political group's advancement.
I agree.
Patrick Sears wrote:
Maybe this is where I'm not being clear.. I'm not advocating examining what we've done wrong. I'm advocating asking ourselves IF we've done something wrong. Too many shoot from the hip and say "Yes, we're evil!" or "No, they're evil!" without really ever examining the question.
But what do you mean by "something wrong"? Emotionally or strategically? The government should constantly be analyzing the latter, but the former should not even come into the equation. "Introspection", by definition, means an emotional analysis. The last thing I want is the president hugging it out in tears with the secretary of state pondering where he went wrong.
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Fred_Smith wrote:
In 1985 (I think it was) Saddam Hussein wiped an entire Kurdish town (ok, large village) off the map by dropping a chemical bomb on it.
... while all the while the USA was arming him to the teeth just because he happened to be fighting against Iran...
Cheers, Vıkram.
After all is said and done, much is said and little is done.
Don't forget that we once had Bin Laden as an ally, simply because he was fighting the Russians! And then 9/11 and this is how he thanks us for 'saving' a Muslim nation from the infidel? True, we need to watch very closely who we think our 'allies' really are. Why we even cinsidered the French as an ally at one time:omg:
John P.
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K(arl) wrote:
Still able to cope with the moral implications of a war?
What about the moral implications of NOT having a war? I suppose you'd be sitting on your moral high-horse if Hitler had exterminated all the Jews, saying "Well, at least I didn't go to war over it!" War is nasty. The war in Iraq is nasty. But so was Saddam Hussein - very nasty - and so was life (and death...) for hundreds of thousands if not millions of Iraqis (and Kurds) before the war. Sometimes there are no easy, "nice", answers. Sometimes you just have get down and get dirty and fight tooth and claw for what you think is right.
Fred_Smith wrote:
The war in Iraq is nasty. But so was Saddam Hussein
but, but, but ... France was making money.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Fred_Smith wrote:
The war in Iraq is nasty. But so was Saddam Hussein
but, but, but ... France was making money.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
so.... can we invade France? Pleeeease! :laugh:
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Fred_Smith wrote:
The war in Iraq is nasty. But so was Saddam Hussein
but, but, but ... France was making money.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Is it your position that Saddam's nasty behaviour does not justify the Iraq war being nasty?
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Is it your position that Saddam's nasty behaviour does not justify the Iraq war being nasty?
oilFactotum wrote:
Is it your position that Saddam's nasty behaviour does not justify the Iraq war being nasty?
I don't believe I took a position. I said Karl didn't object to Saddam's nastiness because France was profiting.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.