Reasons to get out of Iraq
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We are training them to kill us About two years ago, Americans, especially the ones fighting against Shiite insurgents, began seeing the deadly effects of a new, improved IED, a charge that could blast right through an armored vehicle, even a tank. These explosively formed projectiles (EFPs) are shot out of crude cannons shaped roughly like coffee cans. Making an EFP requires expertise and machine tools, and earlier this year the Americans claimed the devices originated in Iran. According to the military, EFPs accounted for a third of American combat deaths in July. [^] The Iraqi Army and police cannot be trusted A few nights ago, for example, we witnessed the death of one American soldier and the critical wounding of two others when a lethal armor-piercing explosive was detonated between an Iraqi Army checkpoint and a police one. Local Iraqis readily testified to American investigators that Iraqi police and Army officers escorted the triggermen and helped plant the bomb. These civilians highlighted their own predicament: had they informed the Americans of the bomb before the incident, the Iraqi Army, the police or the local Shiite militia would have killed their families. [^]
oilFactotum wrote:
We are training them to kill us
so we're holding classes on how to build IEDs? EFPs? Or is that Iran?
oilFactotum wrote:
The Iraqi Army and police cannot be trusted
probably not. but if, as you propose, we let them chase us out, how far are you willing to run? Of course I assume they're not planting IEds and EFDs because they want us to leave, that would happen virtually over night if they'd quit planting IEDs and EFDs because the din from the Democrats and the left in general would be so loud leaving would be unavoidable. So maybe it is a two part question: how far would you run, and, why do the insurgents continue insurging? I believe those questions shold be answered first.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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oilFactotum wrote:
We are training them to kill us
so we're holding classes on how to build IEDs? EFPs? Or is that Iran?
oilFactotum wrote:
The Iraqi Army and police cannot be trusted
probably not. but if, as you propose, we let them chase us out, how far are you willing to run? Of course I assume they're not planting IEds and EFDs because they want us to leave, that would happen virtually over night if they'd quit planting IEDs and EFDs because the din from the Democrats and the left in general would be so loud leaving would be unavoidable. So maybe it is a two part question: how far would you run, and, why do the insurgents continue insurging? I believe those questions shold be answered first.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
so we're holding classes on how to build IEDs? EFPs? Or is that Iran?
oilfactotum must be Iranian. That explains his anti-American sentiment.
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oilFactotum wrote:
We are training them to kill us
so we're holding classes on how to build IEDs? EFPs? Or is that Iran?
oilFactotum wrote:
The Iraqi Army and police cannot be trusted
probably not. but if, as you propose, we let them chase us out, how far are you willing to run? Of course I assume they're not planting IEds and EFDs because they want us to leave, that would happen virtually over night if they'd quit planting IEDs and EFDs because the din from the Democrats and the left in general would be so loud leaving would be unavoidable. So maybe it is a two part question: how far would you run, and, why do the insurgents continue insurging? I believe those questions shold be answered first.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
so we're holding classes on how to build IEDs
By "engaging - but not defeating - the terrorist enemy with one of the smartest, most high-tech militaries the world has ever known. To survive, the terrorists and insurgents and militias need to keep improvising their tactics, honing their skills and constantly improving their equipment. These skills and devices are transferable from Iraq across the globe. We may, in other words, be giving Jihadists the best training they have ever had, without obliterating them"
Mike Gaskey wrote:
how far would you run
Sorry - I don't know what you mean. Chased out? Running away? So, what is the point of staying? Can we quell the Iraqi civil war? We might have if we had put in 500,000 troops 3 years ago. But what we have is a "surge" of 160,000 and that will only last until next spring. That hasn't quelled the civil war. The Bagdad government doesn't exist as a national entity and no amount of US troops can change that. The militias have not been disarmed, the terrorists have not been defeated and we have a sectarian police and military. None of this is getting better. Much is getting worse. And this has been the reality for three years now.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
so we're holding classes on how to build IEDs
By "engaging - but not defeating - the terrorist enemy with one of the smartest, most high-tech militaries the world has ever known. To survive, the terrorists and insurgents and militias need to keep improvising their tactics, honing their skills and constantly improving their equipment. These skills and devices are transferable from Iraq across the globe. We may, in other words, be giving Jihadists the best training they have ever had, without obliterating them"
Mike Gaskey wrote:
how far would you run
Sorry - I don't know what you mean. Chased out? Running away? So, what is the point of staying? Can we quell the Iraqi civil war? We might have if we had put in 500,000 troops 3 years ago. But what we have is a "surge" of 160,000 and that will only last until next spring. That hasn't quelled the civil war. The Bagdad government doesn't exist as a national entity and no amount of US troops can change that. The militias have not been disarmed, the terrorists have not been defeated and we have a sectarian police and military. None of this is getting better. Much is getting worse. And this has been the reality for three years now.
oilFactotum wrote:
Sorry - I don't know what you mean. Chased out? Running away?
do you practice this? Here, let me help" Chased out - running from a fight. Running away - running from a fight.
oilFactotum wrote:
So, what is the point of staying?
I'm not sure what sort of neighborhood you grew up in but in my old neighborhood if you ran from a fight that made you an easy convenient target late that same afternoon. by and large you're supporting an incredibly simplistic view. There's nothing other than distain to be gained by leaving. The Iraqis who're supporting our efforts will face certain death, the Kurds will be on their own to face Iran and possibly Turkey - with your concern for those dying, do you want these on you conscience? You're not worried about military deaths, these are volunteers who knew what they were getting into when they enlisted and if you were worried about needless death you'd be more focused on the 40,000 or so deaths that occur annually in vehicular accidents.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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oilFactotum wrote:
Sorry - I don't know what you mean. Chased out? Running away?
do you practice this? Here, let me help" Chased out - running from a fight. Running away - running from a fight.
oilFactotum wrote:
So, what is the point of staying?
I'm not sure what sort of neighborhood you grew up in but in my old neighborhood if you ran from a fight that made you an easy convenient target late that same afternoon. by and large you're supporting an incredibly simplistic view. There's nothing other than distain to be gained by leaving. The Iraqis who're supporting our efforts will face certain death, the Kurds will be on their own to face Iran and possibly Turkey - with your concern for those dying, do you want these on you conscience? You're not worried about military deaths, these are volunteers who knew what they were getting into when they enlisted and if you were worried about needless death you'd be more focused on the 40,000 or so deaths that occur annually in vehicular accidents.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
in my old neighborhood if you ran from a fight that made you an easy convenient target late that same afternoon.
[...]
Mike Gaskey wrote:
by and large you're supporting an incredibly simplistic view.
:confused:
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oilFactotum wrote:
Sorry - I don't know what you mean. Chased out? Running away?
do you practice this? Here, let me help" Chased out - running from a fight. Running away - running from a fight.
oilFactotum wrote:
So, what is the point of staying?
I'm not sure what sort of neighborhood you grew up in but in my old neighborhood if you ran from a fight that made you an easy convenient target late that same afternoon. by and large you're supporting an incredibly simplistic view. There's nothing other than distain to be gained by leaving. The Iraqis who're supporting our efforts will face certain death, the Kurds will be on their own to face Iran and possibly Turkey - with your concern for those dying, do you want these on you conscience? You're not worried about military deaths, these are volunteers who knew what they were getting into when they enlisted and if you were worried about needless death you'd be more focused on the 40,000 or so deaths that occur annually in vehicular accidents.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
I'm not sure what sort of neighborhood you grew up in but in my old neighborhood if you ran from a fight that made you an easy convenient target late that same afternoon.
You would probably look more like the guy who puts up a fire and then runs away because he lost control over it. That is how you would look like if you left Iraq right now.
----- If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby. -- Unknown God is the only being who, to rule, does not need to exist. -- Charles Baudelaire
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
I'm not sure what sort of neighborhood you grew up in but in my old neighborhood if you ran from a fight that made you an easy convenient target late that same afternoon.
You would probably look more like the guy who puts up a fire and then runs away because he lost control over it. That is how you would look like if you left Iraq right now.
----- If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby. -- Unknown God is the only being who, to rule, does not need to exist. -- Charles Baudelaire
Which, in my opinion is the biggest reason for staying. We have a moral obligation to keep trying to put out the fire we started as long as we remain able to try.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
I'm not sure what sort of neighborhood you grew up in but in my old neighborhood if you ran from a fight that made you an easy convenient target late that same afternoon.
You would probably look more like the guy who puts up a fire and then runs away because he lost control over it. That is how you would look like if you left Iraq right now.
----- If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby. -- Unknown God is the only being who, to rule, does not need to exist. -- Charles Baudelaire
Le Centriste wrote:
That is how you would look like if you left Iraq right now.
to you, certainly, but I'm not concerned with you.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Which, in my opinion is the biggest reason for staying. We have a moral obligation to keep trying to put out the fire we started as long as we remain able to try.
Rob Graham wrote:
We have a moral obligation
I think you'll need to supply him with a definition. Moral and obligation are words rarely used in the same sentence here.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Le Centriste wrote:
That is how you would look like if you left Iraq right now.
to you, certainly, but I'm not concerned with you.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
It is a known fact that America is not concerned with what the rest of the world thinks of it.
----- If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby. -- Unknown God is the only being who, to rule, does not need to exist. -- Charles Baudelaire
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It is a known fact that America is not concerned with what the rest of the world thinks of it.
----- If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby. -- Unknown God is the only being who, to rule, does not need to exist. -- Charles Baudelaire
Le Centriste wrote:
It is a known fact that America is not concerned with what the rest of the world thinks of it.
understood, acknowledged and fully supported by this American. fyi, I also don't conduct my life based on my neighbor's opinion. do you?
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Le Centriste wrote:
It is a known fact that America is not concerned with what the rest of the world thinks of it.
understood, acknowledged and fully supported by this American. fyi, I also don't conduct my life based on my neighbor's opinion. do you?
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
No, but I am usually careful to not piss him off, and I expect he does the same for me.
----- If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby. -- Unknown God is the only being who, to rule, does not need to exist. -- Charles Baudelaire
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No, but I am usually careful to not piss him off, and I expect he does the same for me.
----- If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby. -- Unknown God is the only being who, to rule, does not need to exist. -- Charles Baudelaire
Le Centriste wrote:
No, but I am usually careful to not piss him off
Only because your only neighbor is America.
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Le Centriste wrote:
No, but I am usually careful to not piss him off
Only because your only neighbor is America.
Usual arrogance coming from the south.
----- If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby. -- Unknown God is the only being who, to rule, does not need to exist. -- Charles Baudelaire
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No, but I am usually careful to not piss him off, and I expect he does the same for me.
----- If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby. -- Unknown God is the only being who, to rule, does not need to exist. -- Charles Baudelaire
Le Centriste wrote:
No, but I am usually careful to not piss him off, and I expect he does the same for me.
Not sure I agree. I've lived next to nutjobs that tried their damnest to be offended, so I would oblige. More to the point though, if I felt it necessary to do something to ensure my survival or my success and it offended my neighbor, unless he had some stake in what I was doing or in the outcome regardless of the result - I wouldn't care a whit what his opinion was. With the exception of our allies that are engaged with us in Iraq or neighbors of Iraq that we count as friends and/or allies, someone else's opinion simply doesn't matter.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Which, in my opinion is the biggest reason for staying. We have a moral obligation to keep trying to put out the fire we started as long as we remain able to try.
Rob Graham wrote:
Which, in my opinion is the biggest reason for staying.
And what's your biggest reason for leaving?
Man is a marvelous curiosity ... he thinks he is the Creator's pet ... he even believes the Creator loves him; has a passion for him; sits up nights to admire him; yes and watch over him and keep him out of trouble. He prays to him and thinks He listens. Isn't it a quaint idea. - Mark Twain
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Which, in my opinion is the biggest reason for staying. We have a moral obligation to keep trying to put out the fire we started as long as we remain able to try.
You do realize that our government has absolutely NO CLUE what those words mean? Plus, that is your morals, not the morals of all. I think it's a moral obligation that the biggest military in the world send some soldiers to help in Darfur. But that won't happen unless we think we can get the oil in the end.
_____________________________________________ Flea Market! It's just like...it's just like...A MINI-MALL!
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No, but I am usually careful to not piss him off, and I expect he does the same for me.
----- If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby. -- Unknown God is the only being who, to rule, does not need to exist. -- Charles Baudelaire
I have a neighbor adjacent to my backyard and I've never talked to him. His daughter in law (DIL) also lives in the area and works where I do and we started talking. She said that my privacy fence is 4 inches over the property line and I need to move it as he wants to sell his property next spring. I researched and found out that my survey of the land shows I'm not over, plus the fence has been there over 10 years which means I have squatters rights. I haven't told him yet but I'm sure he'll be pissed. I guess he told all the previous owners the same thing and no one did anything about it.
_____________________________________________ Flea Market! It's just like...it's just like...A MINI-MALL!
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oilFactotum wrote:
We are training them to kill us
so we're holding classes on how to build IEDs? EFPs? Or is that Iran?
oilFactotum wrote:
The Iraqi Army and police cannot be trusted
probably not. but if, as you propose, we let them chase us out, how far are you willing to run? Of course I assume they're not planting IEds and EFDs because they want us to leave, that would happen virtually over night if they'd quit planting IEDs and EFDs because the din from the Democrats and the left in general would be so loud leaving would be unavoidable. So maybe it is a two part question: how far would you run, and, why do the insurgents continue insurging? I believe those questions shold be answered first.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
how far would you run
Not far; I'm a little out of shape. :rolleyes: How many American lives would you consider expendable? What most Americans voted for this past year is to get a timeline that includes the progressive withdrawal of our troops from Iraq. This would benefit our troops (ie, they would have a clear goal), it would benefit Iraqis (ie, they would feel pressure to get their sh*t together [and perhaps take less vacation]), and it would benefit Americans who for several years have seen NO progress in our very expensive and deadly adventure. We're in middle of a civil war; it's not our war anymore. We're spending billions of dollars and putting our troops on the line for nothing. We got rid of the evil dictator, now it's time to let the Iraqis deal with their problems. Tell me, if Mexico had a civil war, would you care?
Mike Gaskey wrote:
why do the insurgents continue insurging?
Huh? You mean you care about the terrorists' motives? How honorable. If the answer was because they want the foreign occupiers to leave, would you then oblige them? You don't really give a crap about their motives. You care more about not looking like a wussy who got his butt kicked in recess. It's time to grow up; there are American lives at stake.
Man is a marvelous curiosity ... he thinks he is the Creator's pet ... he even believes the Creator loves him; has a passion for him; sits up nights to admire him; yes and watch over him and keep him out of trouble. He prays to him and thinks He listens. Isn't it a quaint idea. - Mark Twain
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I have a neighbor adjacent to my backyard and I've never talked to him. His daughter in law (DIL) also lives in the area and works where I do and we started talking. She said that my privacy fence is 4 inches over the property line and I need to move it as he wants to sell his property next spring. I researched and found out that my survey of the land shows I'm not over, plus the fence has been there over 10 years which means I have squatters rights. I haven't told him yet but I'm sure he'll be pissed. I guess he told all the previous owners the same thing and no one did anything about it.
_____________________________________________ Flea Market! It's just like...it's just like...A MINI-MALL!
I have bought 2 houses so far, one that was 100-year old and the other (which I currently live in) is 80 years old. You can't imagine the number of irregularities. But this does not prevent a sale, and there is also an insurance you can buy here (provided by the notary) that guarantees no neighbor will sue you directly, but instead will deal with the notary directly and settlement of the dispute is entirely free from there.
----- If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby. -- Unknown God is the only being who, to rule, does not need to exist. -- Charles Baudelaire