Hans Ruesch, 1913 - 2007
-
In some ways I wish I had time to engage in a lengthy argument over this, but I haven't - and besides, as I said, HR's book can do it better than me anyway. It's useless, and quite disengenuous of you to throw a few quotes at me from scientific jourmals; if you've read them as much as you imply you will know that I could throw just as many back at you from equally learned and respected scientific journmals and scientists who would counter them, and we could sit here having a pissing match for the next few days. This is a big subject, and I can only ask anyone who is remotely interested in reading the other side to that presented by vested interests to read Hans Ruesch's book. The "vested interests", by the way, is a multi-billion dollar industry. HR, on the other hand, had no financial need to write this book, or devote the latter half of his life to this subject, and it hardly made him a rich man. He saw through you, that's all, and felt the need to write down what he knew. And the fact that it was first published in English in 1978 (you can't even get that right) in no wy dimisishes what he has to say on the subject. Lip service has been paid in law to animal welfare; in practice, not a lot has changed. And, more to the point, the (in)validity of thr science involved is just the same now as then. All I'm asking is that people give the other side of the argument a fair chance - and no one presents it better than Hans Ruesch in this book; no-one shows the fallacy of your position better than he. No wonder people on your side of the fence are so desperate to put people off from reading it. Fred
Just because someone devotes part of their life to a cause doesn't make them right nor the cause worthwhile. On the other hand just because a book was last updated/published in 1978 doesn't make it worhtless in terms of helping to decide which side of the issue to fall on. Since this is an emotive issue both of you can be right and wrong. Form my point of view I have no problems with animals being used for scientific research. Or eaten. Or turned into a pair of shoes. However, at least I'm being honest and straightforward: you pepper the posts with nuggets like:
Fred_Smith wrote:
(in)validity
and
Fred_Smith wrote:
fallacy of your position
. That makes it sound like you know you can't answer other people's posts so resort to veiled insults and manipulation. Lazy. Otherwise an intersting subject to raise.
-
Just because someone devotes part of their life to a cause doesn't make them right nor the cause worthwhile. On the other hand just because a book was last updated/published in 1978 doesn't make it worhtless in terms of helping to decide which side of the issue to fall on. Since this is an emotive issue both of you can be right and wrong. Form my point of view I have no problems with animals being used for scientific research. Or eaten. Or turned into a pair of shoes. However, at least I'm being honest and straightforward: you pepper the posts with nuggets like:
Fred_Smith wrote:
(in)validity
and
Fred_Smith wrote:
fallacy of your position
. That makes it sound like you know you can't answer other people's posts so resort to veiled insults and manipulation. Lazy. Otherwise an intersting subject to raise.
I'm not lazy, I just haven't got time and have tried ot explain why it'd better to read the book anyway. Yes, ok, I'm sorry for veiled insults, but it's a subject I feel passionately about and sometimes can't help it... I do feel the arguments against vivisection are very strong and, as is only human, frustration at others' refusal or apparent inability to see them can lead to anger. When you read what vivisection is really about, it is baffling that anyone can still condone it or believe in it. I can only repeat: if you're interested, please read HR's book.
-
I'm not lazy, I just haven't got time and have tried ot explain why it'd better to read the book anyway. Yes, ok, I'm sorry for veiled insults, but it's a subject I feel passionately about and sometimes can't help it... I do feel the arguments against vivisection are very strong and, as is only human, frustration at others' refusal or apparent inability to see them can lead to anger. When you read what vivisection is really about, it is baffling that anyone can still condone it or believe in it. I can only repeat: if you're interested, please read HR's book.
Fair enough but I think it's a wee bit naughty to start this sort of argument and then back off with a 'read the book'.
Fred_Smith wrote:
if you're interested, please read HR's book
Honestly? I really don't care enough since I'm happy to benefit from what animals give me.
-
Hans Ruesch, the father of the genuine scientific anti-vivisection movement, died on Monday 27th August 2007, aged 94. Author of the books Slaughter of the Innocent, and its follow-up The Naked Empress, Hans was the scourge of both the vivisection industry, and the phoney, infiltrator-led, so-called "anti-vivisection" movement whose continued purpose is to mount pretend anti-vivisection campaigns deliberately designed to go nowhere, whilst relieving sincere, but often naive animal rights people of their money. He will be sadly missed by those who genuinely care about the torture of *millions upon millions* (sic) of animals, the bad science and the bad medicine that vivisection is responsible for. For those that cling to the false belief that their or their children's lives might one day be dependent upon this abhorrent practice, or who are interested in reading a well-researched, well-written, fully annotated debunking of the vivisection myth, I cannot recomment highly enough his seminal work "Slaugter of the Innocent". This is not the ranbling rantings of an emotionally scarred immature idealist, as many people see those in the animal rights movement, but an intelligent scientific argument by a man who spent years researching his subject. What he reveals in his books will make your hair stand on end - and I am not just referring to the almost unbelievable abuse that goes on in vivisection laboratories worldwide, but also the sheer scale of the bad science involved, all to feed the monetary greed of the pharmaceutical companies that sponsor it, and to satisfy the depserate need for reassurance that the general public (that's you...) demands from the medical industry; that it will cure you of your ailments. Have your eyes opened, and read this book. Slaughter of the Inocent, on Amazom.com[^] Fred
I will care about animal rights when all of my human fellows will be able to exert their inalienable ones. I've got no moral problem to sacrifice one thousand dogs if it can save one human being. Our world is going crazy: when an animal is found there are refuges to take care of it, but men can continue to die each winter lying on our pavements.
Change of fashion is the tax levied by the industry of the poor on the vanity of the rich Fold with us! ¤ flickr
-
I will care about animal rights when all of my human fellows will be able to exert their inalienable ones. I've got no moral problem to sacrifice one thousand dogs if it can save one human being. Our world is going crazy: when an animal is found there are refuges to take care of it, but men can continue to die each winter lying on our pavements.
Change of fashion is the tax levied by the industry of the poor on the vanity of the rich Fold with us! ¤ flickr
Well said.
-
I will care about animal rights when all of my human fellows will be able to exert their inalienable ones. I've got no moral problem to sacrifice one thousand dogs if it can save one human being. Our world is going crazy: when an animal is found there are refuges to take care of it, but men can continue to die each winter lying on our pavements.
Change of fashion is the tax levied by the industry of the poor on the vanity of the rich Fold with us! ¤ flickr
There are no end of charities and other organisations dedicated to human suffering in all it's guises, and that's fine and good. The fact that they haven't got a great record of stopping all human suffering is no excuse to ignore that of animals. And please, the real point of HR's book is not animal suffering, valid though that is. It is also about the bad science that is vivisection. There is good eveidence to suggest, if you read the book, that vivisection has done more to hinder medical science than advance it, through false and misleading results.
-
I will care about animal rights when all of my human fellows will be able to exert their inalienable ones. I've got no moral problem to sacrifice one thousand dogs if it can save one human being. Our world is going crazy: when an animal is found there are refuges to take care of it, but men can continue to die each winter lying on our pavements.
Change of fashion is the tax levied by the industry of the poor on the vanity of the rich Fold with us! ¤ flickr
K(arl) wrote:
I've got no moral problem to sacrifice one thousand dogs
Just had a mental image of someone standing on top of an Aztec pyramid wielding a big knife...
-
There are no end of charities and other organisations dedicated to human suffering in all it's guises, and that's fine and good. The fact that they haven't got a great record of stopping all human suffering is no excuse to ignore that of animals. And please, the real point of HR's book is not animal suffering, valid though that is. It is also about the bad science that is vivisection. There is good eveidence to suggest, if you read the book, that vivisection has done more to hinder medical science than advance it, through false and misleading results.
Fred_Smith wrote:
to ignore that of animals
And where is your limit? Will you fight against the extermination of billions of mosquitoes per year? What about the horrible fate of these countless bacterias destroyed by these naughty antibiotics? Or do you limit yourself to the cute, so cute furry-like ones?
Where do you expect us to go when the bombs fall?
-
Fred_Smith wrote:
to ignore that of animals
And where is your limit? Will you fight against the extermination of billions of mosquitoes per year? What about the horrible fate of these countless bacterias destroyed by these naughty antibiotics? Or do you limit yourself to the cute, so cute furry-like ones?
Where do you expect us to go when the bombs fall?
The g/f and I spent half an hour Saturday night catching mosquitos in a jar and putting them outdoors before going to bed... ..didn't notice any fur on them.
-
K(arl) wrote:
I've got no moral problem to sacrifice one thousand dogs
Just had a mental image of someone standing on top of an Aztec pyramid wielding a big knife...
Hang on to that image - the gods may have changed, but the beleifs are just as false. Animals are being sacrificied in their millions in the false beleif that doing so will cure us of our illnesses. Alright, here's an example of the science of vivisection. (I could do with a coffee break, but never mind.) First I will describe the experiment, then give you the "justification" for it. For many years during the 1970's, the New York Museum of Natural History had been conducting experiments on cats which involved (according to the museum's own accounts) the infliction of a wide range of mutilations on sexually "experienced" male cats and on three-month old kittens, including the removasl of the eyeballs, the surgical destruction of the sense of hearing ans smell, lesionings of the brain, castration, severence of the spine, and more... I won't go into the details of how this was done, it is too disturbing... In 1978 Hans Ruesch was able to interview on radio the then president of the National Society for Medical Research, a Dr Dennis. HR asked DD what the purpose of such experiments was. This was his reply, verbatim: "You remember that rape is a serious problem, and you know that there are abnormalities in sexual behaviour that play a role in developing rape. I believe what they were working on was to try to figure out, working with cats, which in some respect have a brain that is comparable to the human - I know, I know it's not nearly as complex but in mnay respects for this sort of purpose it is - and they were studying, I believe, with this end in view. That is what they have been working on." This is the science of viviosection. F***. It is barely believable. But it is true.
-
The g/f and I spent half an hour Saturday night catching mosquitos in a jar and putting them outdoors before going to bed... ..didn't notice any fur on them.
-
Laugh all you like, but you can take back your implied dig at hypocrisy, please. But even if I did limit myself to the cute furry animals, somewhat hypocrtitical as that may be, it would not invalidate the whole argument. I am not intersted in arguing the ethics or morality of this subject, because it's somewhat like arguing about God with the Jesus squad, but rather the science of it. We are told that experimenting on animals is a valid path to understanding and curing human disease. Just on it's own, such a simple statemnt as that should strike you as nonsensical, without even going any further. Sheep can consume arsenic by the bucket-load, a teaspoon will kill us - as will 2 grams of scopolamin, a drug which is harmless to dogs and cats (except in huge doses.) A single Amanita phalloides mushrrom can wipe out an entire human family, but is a health food for rabbits (a favourite lab animal.) Morphine, a favourite human anasthetic, causes mania in cats and mice, those other favourite lab animals. Almonds can kill foxes, parsely is poisenous to parrots, and penicillin - that saviour of millions - is posinous to guinea-pigs (yet another much abused lab animal.) This list can be extended almost indefinitely. How is inducing a cancer in a rat in a laboratory in any way scientifically comparable to a cancer that grows due to environmental and/or dietry and/or genetic factors in man? It is a nonsense.
-
The g/f and I spent half an hour Saturday night catching mosquitos in a jar and putting them outdoors before going to bed... ..didn't notice any fur on them.
Fred_Smith wrote:
The g/f and I spent half an hour Saturday night catching mosquitos in a jar
:omg: Do you strain your drinking water as well? Or is that too dangerous for the rotifers?
-
Laugh all you like, but you can take back your implied dig at hypocrisy, please. But even if I did limit myself to the cute furry animals, somewhat hypocrtitical as that may be, it would not invalidate the whole argument. I am not intersted in arguing the ethics or morality of this subject, because it's somewhat like arguing about God with the Jesus squad, but rather the science of it. We are told that experimenting on animals is a valid path to understanding and curing human disease. Just on it's own, such a simple statemnt as that should strike you as nonsensical, without even going any further. Sheep can consume arsenic by the bucket-load, a teaspoon will kill us - as will 2 grams of scopolamin, a drug which is harmless to dogs and cats (except in huge doses.) A single Amanita phalloides mushrrom can wipe out an entire human family, but is a health food for rabbits (a favourite lab animal.) Morphine, a favourite human anasthetic, causes mania in cats and mice, those other favourite lab animals. Almonds can kill foxes, parsely is poisenous to parrots, and penicillin - that saviour of millions - is posinous to guinea-pigs (yet another much abused lab animal.) This list can be extended almost indefinitely. How is inducing a cancer in a rat in a laboratory in any way scientifically comparable to a cancer that grows due to environmental and/or dietry and/or genetic factors in man? It is a nonsense.
Did you give some of your blood to mosquitos before expelling them or did you condemn them to starve in the wildness?
Fred_Smith wrote:
it would not invalidate the whole argument.
Or course it would. This is anthropomorphism, and this is so close from a psychological condition.
Fred_Smith wrote:
How is inducing a cancer in a rat in a laboratory in any way scientifically comparable to a cancer that grows due to environmental and/or dietry and/or genetic factors in man? It is a nonsense.
As using mice to produce human ears[^]...
When they kick at your front door How you gonna come? With your hands on your head Or on the trigger of your gun?
-
Fisticuffs wrote:
Fred, it sure doesn't sound like a scientific argument when you use terms like: (...)
That was me, not Hans Ruesch. Anyway, rather than quote reams back at you, I'll just say this (becasue HR can do it better than me): you've read a lot of one side of the argument - now try reading the other. And bear in mind that everything you've read has come from sources funded by the very people who stand to benefit from such research. Follow the money trail - that always throws a new light on things. Fred
Fred_Smith wrote:
And bear in mind that everything you've read has come from sources funded by the very people who stand to benefit from such research.
In other words, are you saying that using animals in medical research is profitable? Surely, that means the research is useful for coming up with medical solutions.
Cheers Tom Philosophy: The art of never getting beyond the concept of life.
Religion: Morality taking credit for the work of luck.
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." - Marcus Aurelius -
Fred_Smith wrote:
The g/f and I spent half an hour Saturday night catching mosquitos in a jar
:omg: Do you strain your drinking water as well? Or is that too dangerous for the rotifers?
You drink water? You'll be telling me you bath in Whisky next... :-D
-
Did you give some of your blood to mosquitos before expelling them or did you condemn them to starve in the wildness?
Fred_Smith wrote:
it would not invalidate the whole argument.
Or course it would. This is anthropomorphism, and this is so close from a psychological condition.
Fred_Smith wrote:
How is inducing a cancer in a rat in a laboratory in any way scientifically comparable to a cancer that grows due to environmental and/or dietry and/or genetic factors in man? It is a nonsense.
As using mice to produce human ears[^]...
When they kick at your front door How you gonna come? With your hands on your head Or on the trigger of your gun?
K(arl) wrote:
This is anthropomorphism
No Karl, it is precicely NOT this, if you've read anything I've said in this thread. If anything, it is the vivisectors who could be accused of anthropomorphism - they are the ones who think animal and human characteristics / biology / physiology can be equated. I am arguong just the opposite.
-
Fred_Smith wrote:
The g/f and I spent half an hour Saturday night catching mosquitos in a jar
:omg: Do you strain your drinking water as well? Or is that too dangerous for the rotifers?
Bah, give him a break. He is doing less harm to other living organisms. What is wrong with that?
-
Fred_Smith wrote:
And bear in mind that everything you've read has come from sources funded by the very people who stand to benefit from such research.
In other words, are you saying that using animals in medical research is profitable? Surely, that means the research is useful for coming up with medical solutions.
Cheers Tom Philosophy: The art of never getting beyond the concept of life.
Religion: Morality taking credit for the work of luck.
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." - Marcus AureliusTClarke wrote:
Surely, that means the research is useful for coming up with medical solutions.
If only... all it means is that the well of human gullibility is bottomless, as they feed on our depserate desire to find cures for illnesses, and even death itself... people will do anything, believe anything, sacrifice anything, if a man in white coat stands up and promises them he will find a cure for some dread disease... They might do better to wonder wbout where such diseases come from. As far back as 1961 (and you can believe it's even worse now) the following was written: "When will [people] realise that there ar too many drugs? No fewer than 150,000 preparations are now in use. About 15,000 new mixes and dosages hit the market each year, while about 12,000 die off. We simply don't have enough diseases to go round! At the moment the most helpful contribution is the new drug is to counteract the untoward effects of other new drugs." (Dr Modell, Cornell University, writing in Clinical Pharmacology and Therapeutics) From personal experience, I remember when my father was dyting of cancer, adn was on about a dozen wdifferent pills each day - over half of which were given to counteract the side effects of others. He still died, of course.
-
Hans Ruesch, the father of the genuine scientific anti-vivisection movement, died on Monday 27th August 2007, aged 94. Author of the books Slaughter of the Innocent, and its follow-up The Naked Empress, Hans was the scourge of both the vivisection industry, and the phoney, infiltrator-led, so-called "anti-vivisection" movement whose continued purpose is to mount pretend anti-vivisection campaigns deliberately designed to go nowhere, whilst relieving sincere, but often naive animal rights people of their money. He will be sadly missed by those who genuinely care about the torture of *millions upon millions* (sic) of animals, the bad science and the bad medicine that vivisection is responsible for. For those that cling to the false belief that their or their children's lives might one day be dependent upon this abhorrent practice, or who are interested in reading a well-researched, well-written, fully annotated debunking of the vivisection myth, I cannot recomment highly enough his seminal work "Slaugter of the Innocent". This is not the ranbling rantings of an emotionally scarred immature idealist, as many people see those in the animal rights movement, but an intelligent scientific argument by a man who spent years researching his subject. What he reveals in his books will make your hair stand on end - and I am not just referring to the almost unbelievable abuse that goes on in vivisection laboratories worldwide, but also the sheer scale of the bad science involved, all to feed the monetary greed of the pharmaceutical companies that sponsor it, and to satisfy the depserate need for reassurance that the general public (that's you...) demands from the medical industry; that it will cure you of your ailments. Have your eyes opened, and read this book. Slaughter of the Inocent, on Amazom.com[^] Fred
Lobster is best when boiled alive.
