Hans Ruesch, 1913 - 2007
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Lobster is best when boiled alive.
Actually, all crustaceans tastes like shit if they're not boiled alive. At least the lobster/craw fish/crab families - not sure about shrimps. The only consolation is that they die fairly instantly.
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K(arl) wrote:
This is anthropomorphism
No Karl, it is precicely NOT this, if you've read anything I've said in this thread. If anything, it is the vivisectors who could be accused of anthropomorphism - they are the ones who think animal and human characteristics / biology / physiology can be equated. I am arguong just the opposite.
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I will care about animal rights when all of my human fellows will be able to exert their inalienable ones. I've got no moral problem to sacrifice one thousand dogs if it can save one human being. Our world is going crazy: when an animal is found there are refuges to take care of it, but men can continue to die each winter lying on our pavements.
Change of fashion is the tax levied by the industry of the poor on the vanity of the rich Fold with us! ¤ flickr
K(arl) wrote:
Our world is going crazy: when an animal is found there are refuges to take care of it, but men can continue to die each winter lying on our pavements.
Women die on pavements too...
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Well said.
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Actually, all crustaceans tastes like shit if they're not boiled alive. At least the lobster/craw fish/crab families - not sure about shrimps. The only consolation is that they die fairly instantly.
Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:
The only consolation is that they die fairly instantly.
My only consolation is that I can hear them scream.
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Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:
The only consolation is that they die fairly instantly.
My only consolation is that I can hear them scream.
I bet you can, Doolittle Jr.
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There are no end of charities and other organisations dedicated to human suffering in all it's guises, and that's fine and good. The fact that they haven't got a great record of stopping all human suffering is no excuse to ignore that of animals. And please, the real point of HR's book is not animal suffering, valid though that is. It is also about the bad science that is vivisection. There is good eveidence to suggest, if you read the book, that vivisection has done more to hinder medical science than advance it, through false and misleading results.
Fred_Smith wrote:
they haven't got a great record of stopping all human suffering is no excuse to ignore that of animals
Human suffering is CAUSED by humans. We are almost incapable of solving mans problems. We are too close to the problem to solve it. With animals though we can easially be compassionate but distanced from their nature. Makes it easy, a lot easier then to care for people.
Truth is the subjection of reality to an individuals perception
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K(arl) wrote:
inalienable
What rights are inherent Karl?
K(arl) wrote:
animal rights
Is more about freeing you from being a victimiser, than freeing the animal from being a victim.
K(arl) wrote:
I've got no moral problem to sacrifice one thousand dogs if it can save one human being.
I have. A lot of people are scum. A lot of people get themselves into a situation through choice. An animal IS an innocent.
K(arl) wrote:
but men can continue to die each winter lying on our pavements.
Normally because they wont go to a refuge.
Truth is the subjection of reality to an individuals perception
fat_boy wrote:
What rights are inherent Karl?
Universal Declaration of Human Rights[^]
fat_boy wrote:
Is more about freeing you from being a victimiser
The crime lies in your eyes, not mine.
fat_boy wrote:
I have. A lot of people are scum. A lot of people get themselves into a situation through choice. An animal IS an innocent.
And there we go with the psychological condition...
Change of fashion is the tax levied by the industry of the poor on the vanity of the rich Fold with us! ¤ flickr
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K(arl) wrote:
Our world is going crazy: when an animal is found there are refuges to take care of it, but men can continue to die each winter lying on our pavements.
Women die on pavements too...
True. I use 'men' as 'human beings' - it's a gallicism, not a display of misogyny - this time :)
The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread Fold with us! ¤ flickr
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Bah, give him a break. He is doing less harm to other living organisms. What is wrong with that?
Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:
What is wrong with that?
A concern for mosquitoes and protozoa as 'beings' is not only an absurd but also a fundamentally anti human philosophy. Animals are a means to an end - and the end is Man. An individual exhibiting such a level of anthropomorphism is an amusing oddity, the problem is that this idiocy is spreading to policy.
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fat_boy wrote:
What rights are inherent Karl?
Universal Declaration of Human Rights[^]
fat_boy wrote:
Is more about freeing you from being a victimiser
The crime lies in your eyes, not mine.
fat_boy wrote:
I have. A lot of people are scum. A lot of people get themselves into a situation through choice. An animal IS an innocent.
And there we go with the psychological condition...
Change of fashion is the tax levied by the industry of the poor on the vanity of the rich Fold with us! ¤ flickr
K(arl) wrote:
What rights are inherent Karl? Universal Declaration of Human Rights[^]
I was expecting a little thought from you rather than a reguritation of someone leses, but even the UDHR is a fantasy: 1) ...people. They are endowed with reason and conscience' Yeah, sure, I see lots of evidence of that all around me. And so it goes on. Tell me Karl, really, what rights do we have?
Truth is the subjection of reality to an individuals perception
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K(arl) wrote:
What rights are inherent Karl? Universal Declaration of Human Rights[^]
I was expecting a little thought from you rather than a reguritation of someone leses, but even the UDHR is a fantasy: 1) ...people. They are endowed with reason and conscience' Yeah, sure, I see lots of evidence of that all around me. And so it goes on. Tell me Karl, really, what rights do we have?
Truth is the subjection of reality to an individuals perception
fat_boy wrote:
I was expecting a little thought from you rather than a reguritation of someone leses, but even the UDHR is a fantasy
fat_boy wrote:
And so it goes on. Tell me Karl, really, what rights do we have?
Karl is a Marxist, so his concepts of rights are inherently derived from the state... i.e., they're whatever his state tells them they are. It's funny what a cheap (but wordier!) bite off of the Bill of Rights the UDHR is.
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K(arl) wrote:
What rights are inherent Karl? Universal Declaration of Human Rights[^]
I was expecting a little thought from you rather than a reguritation of someone leses, but even the UDHR is a fantasy: 1) ...people. They are endowed with reason and conscience' Yeah, sure, I see lots of evidence of that all around me. And so it goes on. Tell me Karl, really, what rights do we have?
Truth is the subjection of reality to an individuals perception
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Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:
What is wrong with that?
A concern for mosquitoes and protozoa as 'beings' is not only an absurd but also a fundamentally anti human philosophy. Animals are a means to an end - and the end is Man. An individual exhibiting such a level of anthropomorphism is an amusing oddity, the problem is that this idiocy is spreading to policy.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
the problem is that this idiocy is spreading to policy.
No, I don't think so. Policy is defined by the masses (although through a ruling elite). It will take a lot before such policies are established. I fear religious people and their wet policy dreams far more than any mosquito lover...
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fat_boy wrote:
I was expecting a little thought from you rather than a reguritation of someone leses, but even the UDHR is a fantasy
fat_boy wrote:
And so it goes on. Tell me Karl, really, what rights do we have?
Karl is a Marxist, so his concepts of rights are inherently derived from the state... i.e., they're whatever his state tells them they are. It's funny what a cheap (but wordier!) bite off of the Bill of Rights the UDHR is.
In this respect you could be right. And, I you would probably agree with me that the only 'unalienable rights' we have are those we are prepared to fight for. Its a big fist and a big arm that gives a person rights. Take that away and he has nothing.
Truth is the subjection of reality to an individuals perception
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fat_boy wrote:
UDHR is a fantasy
No, it's a concept.
Jouir et faire jouir sans faire de mal ni à toi ni à personne, voilà je crois le fondement de toute morale Fold with us! ¤ flickr
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TClarke wrote:
Surely, that means the research is useful for coming up with medical solutions.
If only... all it means is that the well of human gullibility is bottomless, as they feed on our depserate desire to find cures for illnesses, and even death itself... people will do anything, believe anything, sacrifice anything, if a man in white coat stands up and promises them he will find a cure for some dread disease... They might do better to wonder wbout where such diseases come from. As far back as 1961 (and you can believe it's even worse now) the following was written: "When will [people] realise that there ar too many drugs? No fewer than 150,000 preparations are now in use. About 15,000 new mixes and dosages hit the market each year, while about 12,000 die off. We simply don't have enough diseases to go round! At the moment the most helpful contribution is the new drug is to counteract the untoward effects of other new drugs." (Dr Modell, Cornell University, writing in Clinical Pharmacology and Therapeutics) From personal experience, I remember when my father was dyting of cancer, adn was on about a dozen wdifferent pills each day - over half of which were given to counteract the side effects of others. He still died, of course.
Sorry to hear about your father. While I agree that people's desperation when they are ill makes them an easy target. This is especially visible in unchecked markets such as alternative medicine. The medical industry is a continually evolving system with very strict rules and monitoring, I used to work for what was Smithkline Beecham and you have to see an FDA audit to believe it. Any mishandling of these drugs is not done by the pharmaceutical companies. As for the number of drugs on the market, it costs around £300,000,000 to bring a drug to market. The companies have to be pretty sure there will be a market for it, that is, it works before they go ahead and put it through all the testing, so there's nothing superfluous that enters the market. What would be an interesting statistic is how many drugs don't make it to market because of a flaw found from testing on animals. PS Cancer is a very tricky disease to treat. Basically the drugs are just poisons that we are slightly less susceptible to than cancer cells are. The other drugs are to try to protect certain organs from failing.
Cheers Tom Philosophy: The art of never getting beyond the concept of life.
Religion: Morality taking credit for the work of luck.
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." - Marcus Aurelius -
From my POV, Anthropomorphism lies in considering animals as entities having rights in our human society.
Change of fashion is the tax levied by the industry of the poor on the vanity of the rich Fold with us! ¤ flickr
Not really.. Anthropomorphism is attributing human qualities / charactreristics ( / personality, even) to non-human beings... it doesn't ususally mean or include "rights in society" though I suppose it can...
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Bollocks, that was a load of crap.
Truth is the subjection of reality to an individuals perception
Elucidate.
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Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:
What is wrong with that?
A concern for mosquitoes and protozoa as 'beings' is not only an absurd but also a fundamentally anti human philosophy. Animals are a means to an end - and the end is Man. An individual exhibiting such a level of anthropomorphism is an amusing oddity, the problem is that this idiocy is spreading to policy.
I am not anti-human nor am I anthropomorphic in my attitude towards animals. I have said nothing that should make you think otherwise, so please stop jumping to preconceived ideas about me.