Flying Spaghettit Monsters and Invisible Pink Unicorns
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Nice. The fallacy, that I wouldn't expect any atheist to see, is of course that we have a speaking God who has revealed himself and his character. When you've met someone then, no matter how impossible it might be to prove or disprove their existence, the fact that someone else hasn't met him is never going to persuade you he doesn't exist. You can try this for yourself, see if your friends can persuade you that someone you've met and they haven't is really a figment of your imagination. They can surely persuade you that's it's possible, plausible, explicable, useful, benficial, but not that it's true. Of course even if they pulled the full Orwell on you and 'really' persuaded you that the person in question didn't exist all that would happen is you'd be joing them in a collective delusion. It still wouldn't make it true.:laugh: There are many things that the scientific method can discover and many things that it can't. Those who insist that all the questions science cannot in priciple answer therefore don't exist are simply proclaiming the limits of their own understanding to be the defining limits of reality. A very foolish mistake indeed as every time they discover anything new they're repeatedly proved wrong. He who "sits enthroned above the circle of the earth" is not subject to the mind of man or to any of his creations. He reveals himself to whom he will and cannot be reached. Rather he reaches out to those who are willing to recieve him and reveals to them only what their puny minds can comprehend. Now we see "as through a glass darkly". One day "we will know even as we are known". This is revelation and holds a place above all the words of man.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
see if your friends can persuade you that someone you've met and they haven't is really a figment of your imagination.
I suspect that your friends feel compelled to do this a lot.
Anybody rape your wife yet? -IAmChrisMcCall
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Nice. The fallacy, that I wouldn't expect any atheist to see, is of course that we have a speaking God who has revealed himself and his character. When you've met someone then, no matter how impossible it might be to prove or disprove their existence, the fact that someone else hasn't met him is never going to persuade you he doesn't exist. You can try this for yourself, see if your friends can persuade you that someone you've met and they haven't is really a figment of your imagination. They can surely persuade you that's it's possible, plausible, explicable, useful, benficial, but not that it's true. Of course even if they pulled the full Orwell on you and 'really' persuaded you that the person in question didn't exist all that would happen is you'd be joing them in a collective delusion. It still wouldn't make it true.:laugh: There are many things that the scientific method can discover and many things that it can't. Those who insist that all the questions science cannot in priciple answer therefore don't exist are simply proclaiming the limits of their own understanding to be the defining limits of reality. A very foolish mistake indeed as every time they discover anything new they're repeatedly proved wrong. He who "sits enthroned above the circle of the earth" is not subject to the mind of man or to any of his creations. He reveals himself to whom he will and cannot be reached. Rather he reaches out to those who are willing to recieve him and reveals to them only what their puny minds can comprehend. Now we see "as through a glass darkly". One day "we will know even as we are known". This is revelation and holds a place above all the words of man.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
What is it you're actually trying to say? Maybe you could write it in, you know, English. That's comprehensible. By people who "live outside the walls".
"sh*thead ... f*** off and die" "Keep my words on your sig. I stand by them. (Which, incidently, doesn't make me a sociopath - it's personal.)" - Fred_Smith (on respect for living things)
"I misread "on respect for living thigs" as "no respect for living things" I must retract the libel charge. I stand by thr rst though" Fred_Smith (on literacy)
"You don't know me well enough to diagnose me. -
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
see if your friends can persuade you that someone you've met and they haven't is really a figment of your imagination.
I suspect that your friends feel compelled to do this a lot.
Anybody rape your wife yet? -IAmChrisMcCall
No they've never tried it. A friend of mine did once have a false idea which I took as an assumption and made a logical argument which proved that he did not exist. He could not find any flaw in my logic and did not want to abandon his origianl position so he had to conclude that he did not exist. As far as I know to this day he simultaneoously belives both that he exists and that he doesn't exist. Which kind of shows the limits of logical argument and the flexibility of the human mind.:laugh:
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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No they've never tried it. A friend of mine did once have a false idea which I took as an assumption and made a logical argument which proved that he did not exist. He could not find any flaw in my logic and did not want to abandon his origianl position so he had to conclude that he did not exist. As far as I know to this day he simultaneoously belives both that he exists and that he doesn't exist. Which kind of shows the limits of logical argument and the flexibility of the human mind.:laugh:
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
No they've never tried it.
Have any of your doctors?
Anybody rape your wife yet? -IAmChrisMcCall
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martin_hughes wrote:
That must make me a multiculturalist - I firmly believe that stupid ideas should warrant the same, and equal, contempt.
;P You know what I mean.
Anybody rape your wife yet? -IAmChrisMcCall
Yes, but it's funnier to pretend not to :)
Me: Can you see the "up" arrow? User:Errr...ummm....no. Me: Can you see an arrow that points upwards? User: Oh yes, I see it now! -Excerpt from a support call taken by me, 08/31/2007
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What is it you're actually trying to say? Maybe you could write it in, you know, English. That's comprehensible. By people who "live outside the walls".
"sh*thead ... f*** off and die" "Keep my words on your sig. I stand by them. (Which, incidently, doesn't make me a sociopath - it's personal.)" - Fred_Smith (on respect for living things)
"I misread "on respect for living thigs" as "no respect for living things" I must retract the libel charge. I stand by thr rst though" Fred_Smith (on literacy)
"You don't know me well enough to diagnose me.Can't be done I'm afraid, the inability to comprehend is part of being "outside the walls" as you put it. Only the Spirit of God can interpret the word of God. Unless the Spirit lives in you, you cannot understand the word. The miracle of conversion is that the Spirit comes to those who are dead(outside the walls) and shows them a glimpse of the world the other way around and offers them an oportunity to come in. This tends to happen to those who pray sincerely and ask for it. This is why no man can convert another either by argument or coersion, it is always and only the work of God, changing the heart. All that we can do is tell people the Good News, for "how can they believe if they have not heard".
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
No they've never tried it.
Have any of your doctors?
Anybody rape your wife yet? -IAmChrisMcCall
No, you're quite safe, my belief in your existence and supreme hilarious Redness is unshakable. I could never have dreamt up anyone so uniquely Red, not in month of total eclipses. :laugh:
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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digital man wrote:
Err, get a sense of humor.
Read up a few posts and you'll see that I find it funny because the Flying Spaghetti Monster parody is predicated on accepting arbitrary, idiotic ideas as being as valid as other sensible ideas. While you might find the parody funny, I find the underlying psychology behind it funny. Therefore, my sense of humor is better than your sense of humor.
Anybody rape your wife yet? -IAmChrisMcCall
No, you have an American sense of humor which is the same as having no sense of humor at all. The mere fact that it impacts you enough to have to analyse it beyond the ordinary is proof that you are a humorless pedant who takes himself and his own ideas far too seriously. Get over yourself.
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No, you have an American sense of humor which is the same as having no sense of humor at all. The mere fact that it impacts you enough to have to analyse it beyond the ordinary is proof that you are a humorless pedant who takes himself and his own ideas far too seriously. Get over yourself.
I hope that one day I will be able to find men dressed as women running around in triple-speed with silly music to be the funniest thing that ever was.
Anybody rape your wife yet? -IAmChrisMcCall
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Can't be done I'm afraid, the inability to comprehend is part of being "outside the walls" as you put it. Only the Spirit of God can interpret the word of God. Unless the Spirit lives in you, you cannot understand the word. The miracle of conversion is that the Spirit comes to those who are dead(outside the walls) and shows them a glimpse of the world the other way around and offers them an oportunity to come in. This tends to happen to those who pray sincerely and ask for it. This is why no man can convert another either by argument or coersion, it is always and only the work of God, changing the heart. All that we can do is tell people the Good News, for "how can they believe if they have not heard".
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Nice bit of circular reasoning. Nonsense, of course, but elegant, nonetheless. You can understand why religion appeals to simple-minded people: it certainly hooked you.
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I hope that one day I will be able to find men dressed as women running around in triple-speed with silly music to be the funniest thing that ever was.
Anybody rape your wife yet? -IAmChrisMcCall
You're going to have to explain that one. Unless you mean Monty Python which I never found even slightly funny. Hey, I must be a born-again American.
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Can't be done I'm afraid, the inability to comprehend is part of being "outside the walls" as you put it. Only the Spirit of God can interpret the word of God. Unless the Spirit lives in you, you cannot understand the word. The miracle of conversion is that the Spirit comes to those who are dead(outside the walls) and shows them a glimpse of the world the other way around and offers them an oportunity to come in. This tends to happen to those who pray sincerely and ask for it. This is why no man can convert another either by argument or coersion, it is always and only the work of God, changing the heart. All that we can do is tell people the Good News, for "how can they believe if they have not heard".
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
The miracle of conversion is that the Spirit comes to those who are dead(outside the walls) and shows them a glimpse of the world the other way around and offers them an oportunity to come in. This tends to happen to those who pray sincerely and ask for it.
In my experience, this kind of conversion -- the kind that involves a level of connection with the Christian God that includes the absolute and unshakable certainty that he is a real and personal, and speaks to you in a voice only you can hear -- tends to happen to those who have experienced some life-changing negative event, like the loss of a family member, attempted suicide, divorce, a lengthy prison term, or a prolonged period of substance abuse and recovery. This has lead me to conclude that it is a form of trauma-induced mental illness. That said, aside from a tendency toward aggressive proselytizing, it seems to be a rather benign form, perhaps even beneficial in some respects. No offense :).
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This is great[^] - fabulous music (wait for it...) For those of you who don't get the theology, you may wish to start with Flying Spaghetti Monster[^] and Invisible Pink Unicorn[^] Sorry if it's a repost...(but it's worth it!) Fred
Ah yes.. pink unicorns. If I told you I believed in invisible pink unicorns, you'd think I'm a dumbass. But if I told you I believed in burning and talking bushes, or that walking on water was possible, I'd be perfectly ok in doing so. Strange isn't it? Kaiser, I'm really not interested in your pseudo intelligent babble, so keep it to yourself.
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
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Nice bit of circular reasoning. Nonsense, of course, but elegant, nonetheless. You can understand why religion appeals to simple-minded people: it certainly hooked you.
It's always easiest to dismiss what we don't understand as nonsense. Simple minded is just a silly jibe though, if you knew anything about me you wouldn't be saying that. Your oft-repeated inability or rather unwillingness to differentiate the term 'religion' is the clearest indication that it is you who has an oversimplified conception, redolent more often of a lazy than a simple mind but no less stupid.;P
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
The miracle of conversion is that the Spirit comes to those who are dead(outside the walls) and shows them a glimpse of the world the other way around and offers them an oportunity to come in. This tends to happen to those who pray sincerely and ask for it.
In my experience, this kind of conversion -- the kind that involves a level of connection with the Christian God that includes the absolute and unshakable certainty that he is a real and personal, and speaks to you in a voice only you can hear -- tends to happen to those who have experienced some life-changing negative event, like the loss of a family member, attempted suicide, divorce, a lengthy prison term, or a prolonged period of substance abuse and recovery. This has lead me to conclude that it is a form of trauma-induced mental illness. That said, aside from a tendency toward aggressive proselytizing, it seems to be a rather benign form, perhaps even beneficial in some respects. No offense :).
No offense taken. None of the traumatic things you mentioned have happened to me or to many millions of other believers (real ones, which is what you're describing) so your experience must have mislead you. The kind of situation you describe is very dramatic and makes for 'good copy' which might explain why you've recieved this impression.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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It's always easiest to dismiss what we don't understand as nonsense. Simple minded is just a silly jibe though, if you knew anything about me you wouldn't be saying that. Your oft-repeated inability or rather unwillingness to differentiate the term 'religion' is the clearest indication that it is you who has an oversimplified conception, redolent more often of a lazy than a simple mind but no less stupid.;P
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Who said I didn't understand? Wasn't me, was you putting words in my mouth. Tsk, tsk: not very Christian of you, old chap.
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No offense taken. None of the traumatic things you mentioned have happened to me or to many millions of other believers (real ones, which is what you're describing) so your experience must have mislead you. The kind of situation you describe is very dramatic and makes for 'good copy' which might explain why you've recieved this impression.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
No offense taken. None of the traumatic things you mentioned have happened to me or to many millions of other believers (real ones, which is what you're describing) so your experience must have mislead you. The kind of situation you describe is very dramatic and makes for 'good copy' which might explain why you've recieved this impression.
I should have mentioned that I am aware of cases where there has been no trauma, but depth of belief seems to be proportional to suffering. Perhaps the relationship isn't causal. In any case, I find the arguments for a personal and communicative God to be arbitrary and unconvincing. I do, however, very much enjoy your posts.
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No, you have an American sense of humor which is the same as having no sense of humor at all. The mere fact that it impacts you enough to have to analyse it beyond the ordinary is proof that you are a humorless pedant who takes himself and his own ideas far too seriously. Get over yourself.
digital man wrote:
American sense of humor which is the same as having no sense of humor at all
1...
[Insert Witty Sig Here]
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digital man wrote:
Err, get a sense of humor.
Read up a few posts and you'll see that I find it funny because the Flying Spaghetti Monster parody is predicated on accepting arbitrary, idiotic ideas as being as valid as other sensible ideas. While you might find the parody funny, I find the underlying psychology behind it funny. Therefore, my sense of humor is better than your sense of humor.
Anybody rape your wife yet? -IAmChrisMcCall
Red Stateler wrote:
the Flying Spaghetti Monster parody is predicated on accepting arbitrary, idiotic ideas as being as valid as other sensible ideas
Actually, it's predicated on the absurdity of accepting and defending one arbitrary and unprovable belief while rejecting another.
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Who said I didn't understand? Wasn't me, was you putting words in my mouth. Tsk, tsk: not very Christian of you, old chap.
digital man wrote:
Who said I didn't understand? Wasn't me,
No it was me and I wasn't putting words in your mouth simply stating that you cannot and did not comprehend what I had written.
digital man wrote:
Tsk, tsk: not very Christian of you,
Clearly you're in a great position to judge :laugh:
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.