where are the lefties?
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
Well, the Ottomans were kind of involved before that.
Indeed and now again it appears.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Was the result of a stark choice between communism or economically right wing autocracy
The choice to leave the choice to the people of Chile and not make that choice for them, thus becoming responsible for the mass-mudering result, is not one that would occur to you?
Ryan Roberts wrote:
You are seriously far gone enough to put 'right' in quotes in the context of the cold war
My point was that those in the right in the Cold War were not all necessarily what you would call polically right wing. You would probably consider me a lefty but I was never a Soviet apologist.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Western support for Saddam
Was of the same era as the Cold War, carried out by the same people who claimed to be anti-communist (Ronald Dumsfeld etc) while Saddam was spending your money on Russian tanks and was completely hyprocritical and unacceptable. Pol Pot...
Ryan Roberts wrote:
He was a Maoist, and the darling of the 'anti war' movement
Backed by Henry Kissenger and the amorral left at the same time. You make my point precisely.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
The choice to leave the choice to the people of Chile and not make that choice for them
Both choices would have involved mass murder, and you make the assumption that the west was the only foreign influence. Single handedly withdrawing from the great game makes as little sense as unilateral disarmament.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
probably consider me a lefty
Nah, I've got you pegged on the crazy end of the libertarian spectrum. Which is mostly crazy in the first place :)
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pseudonym67 wrote:
Speaking as a lefty
who, it would appear, fails to differentiate himself from the ammoral and hyprocritical left as referenced above. Doesn't do your cause any good.
pseudonym67 wrote:
if it was some country bordering Iran you'd be only too happy for the same scenario to be enacted.
Check your atlas my friend. It is a country bordering Iran! One of the biggest issues of Turkey going into Kurdistan is that Kurdistan extends into Iran, risking getting the Iranians involved if the Kurdish fighters flee from the Turkish forces into Iranian Kurdistan. Then you may have something to complain about.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
I don't have a cause and we'd be here all year if I could be bothered to even try to differentiate myself from everyone the people on this site disagree with. And once again thank you for completely failing to understand a simple reference. So as usual I'll have to give you the long winded explanation for a single sentence. What I was referring to is that if someone bordering Iran was talking about launching attacks in Iran to combat terrorism then with the majority of posters on this site would have no trouble with it. Whereas they do have trouble when it is applied to a country occupied by America. I was simply pointing out the selectiveness of their logic not referring to physical locations or actual events.
pseudonym67 My Articles[^] Beginning KDevelop Programming[^]
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I don't have a cause and we'd be here all year if I could be bothered to even try to differentiate myself from everyone the people on this site disagree with. And once again thank you for completely failing to understand a simple reference. So as usual I'll have to give you the long winded explanation for a single sentence. What I was referring to is that if someone bordering Iran was talking about launching attacks in Iran to combat terrorism then with the majority of posters on this site would have no trouble with it. Whereas they do have trouble when it is applied to a country occupied by America. I was simply pointing out the selectiveness of their logic not referring to physical locations or actual events.
pseudonym67 My Articles[^] Beginning KDevelop Programming[^]
Selectiveness of logic is indeed a problem, or more accurately a symptom, on both right and left. The question is; are the gullible right wing who might support an incursion into Iran against 'terrorists' your real problem, or is it those who would actually perpetrate terrorism inside Iran in an attempt to destabalise a sovereign state. In case you think this is unlikely it has been done before by the US governement who brought down the democratically elected leader of Iran in the 1950s using unambigously terrorist methods. My point to both Right and Left is that neither is the enemy. Each is being set up as a foil to the other by those who don't believe in anything except their own power.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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Selectiveness of logic is indeed a problem, or more accurately a symptom, on both right and left. The question is; are the gullible right wing who might support an incursion into Iran against 'terrorists' your real problem, or is it those who would actually perpetrate terrorism inside Iran in an attempt to destabalise a sovereign state. In case you think this is unlikely it has been done before by the US governement who brought down the democratically elected leader of Iran in the 1950s using unambigously terrorist methods. My point to both Right and Left is that neither is the enemy. Each is being set up as a foil to the other by those who don't believe in anything except their own power.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
"The question is; are the gullible right wing who might support an incursion into Iran against 'terrorists' your real problem, or is it those who would actually perpetrate terrorism inside Iran in an attempt to destabalise a sovereign state" Both. I know about the American overthrow of the elected government in Iran and the imposition of the Shah and it's support by Britain and amongst others and the rights support of Pol Pot despite arguments to the contrary on this site. "Each is being set up as a foil to the other by those who don't believe in anything except their own power." ( Konquerer wont quote properly ) No argument from me there.
pseudonym67 My Articles[^] Beginning KDevelop Programming[^]
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
The choice to leave the choice to the people of Chile and not make that choice for them
Both choices would have involved mass murder, and you make the assumption that the west was the only foreign influence. Single handedly withdrawing from the great game makes as little sense as unilateral disarmament.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
probably consider me a lefty
Nah, I've got you pegged on the crazy end of the libertarian spectrum. Which is mostly crazy in the first place :)
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Both choices would have involved mass murder, and you make the assumption that the west was the only foreign influence. Single handedly withdrawing from the great game makes as little sense as unilateral disarmament.
Those who show more willingness to get their hands dirty (becoming responsible for mass murder) than to take responsibility for their actions are not acting out of some noble sense of higher purpose. Though they may hide behind the expensively bought impression of one. The great game itself is an immoral concept. The fact that you still apparently believe that Soviet domination was possible in far flung Chile shows just how far you were taken in at the time. You probably still belive that the Soviets were trying to take over Angola and that justified arming UNITA, the private army of a madman, for decades and at the cost of 100's of thousands of lives as well. Mr McCarthy and friends sure did mess with your minds.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Nah, I've got you pegged on the crazy end of the libertarian spectrum.
Funny that, when the Conservatives here accuse me of being a right wing extremist. It would make me laugh if it wasn't all such nonsense.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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I don't have a cause and we'd be here all year if I could be bothered to even try to differentiate myself from everyone the people on this site disagree with. And once again thank you for completely failing to understand a simple reference. So as usual I'll have to give you the long winded explanation for a single sentence. What I was referring to is that if someone bordering Iran was talking about launching attacks in Iran to combat terrorism then with the majority of posters on this site would have no trouble with it. Whereas they do have trouble when it is applied to a country occupied by America. I was simply pointing out the selectiveness of their logic not referring to physical locations or actual events.
pseudonym67 My Articles[^] Beginning KDevelop Programming[^]
pseudonym67 wrote:
Whereas they do have trouble when it is applied to a country occupied by America.
I don't. If Turkey has a legitimate case that they are under attack from a neighbor, than they should be allowed to defend themselves. Obviously, that raises the possibility of a confrontation between Turk and US forces as the US would necessarily have to defend against a general invasion from Turkey, but as long as the objectives were narrowly defined, they should be allowed to do it. Frankly, I think there should be a new international law - any act of terrorism from the citizens of one nation against the citizens of another can be considered an act of war regardless of whether the government of the nation producing the terrorism was directly responsible for it or not. Further, all members of the UN would be required to participate militarily in the invasion of any nation producing terrorism. The excuse of 'stateless' terrorism should be made legally moot. If they are your citizens than you need to control them. Otherwise, the international community will. -- modified at 8:05 Friday 19th October, 2007
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
Both choices would have involved mass murder, and you make the assumption that the west was the only foreign influence. Single handedly withdrawing from the great game makes as little sense as unilateral disarmament.
Those who show more willingness to get their hands dirty (becoming responsible for mass murder) than to take responsibility for their actions are not acting out of some noble sense of higher purpose. Though they may hide behind the expensively bought impression of one. The great game itself is an immoral concept. The fact that you still apparently believe that Soviet domination was possible in far flung Chile shows just how far you were taken in at the time. You probably still belive that the Soviets were trying to take over Angola and that justified arming UNITA, the private army of a madman, for decades and at the cost of 100's of thousands of lives as well. Mr McCarthy and friends sure did mess with your minds.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Nah, I've got you pegged on the crazy end of the libertarian spectrum.
Funny that, when the Conservatives here accuse me of being a right wing extremist. It would make me laugh if it wasn't all such nonsense.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
The great game itself is an immoral concept.
Yet unavoidable in a world of conflicting nation states. That you think otherwise seems to conflict with your anti globalist agenda.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Soviet domination
Influence, and yes it was possible. As possible as American hegemony.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Mr McCarthy and friends
Were rather more correct than commonly realised, given the evidence of recently declassified transcripts[^]. Keeping Soviet sympathisers and paid agents out of government organisations was a laudable goal, keeping them out of Hollywood and academia rather less so.
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pseudonym67 wrote:
Whereas they do have trouble when it is applied to a country occupied by America.
I don't. If Turkey has a legitimate case that they are under attack from a neighbor, than they should be allowed to defend themselves. Obviously, that raises the possibility of a confrontation between Turk and US forces as the US would necessarily have to defend against a general invasion from Turkey, but as long as the objectives were narrowly defined, they should be allowed to do it. Frankly, I think there should be a new international law - any act of terrorism from the citizens of one nation against the citizens of another can be considered an act of war regardless of whether the government of the nation producing the terrorism was directly responsible for it or not. Further, all members of the UN would be required to participate militarily in the invasion of any nation producing terrorism. The excuse of 'stateless' terrorism should be made legally moot. If they are your citizens than you need to control them. Otherwise, the international community will. -- modified at 8:05 Friday 19th October, 2007
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
Interesting concept. So the General Assembly of the UN would be able to send US troops back into Mogadishu against the will of the US governement to stop Somalia from exporting its chaos to the neigbouring countries. Hmm somehow I think US withdrawl from the UN and a unilateral declaration of war against the entire world would be more likely. Nice to know that you're a supporter of world government though. I'll watch out for you in future.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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pseudonym67 wrote:
Whereas they do have trouble when it is applied to a country occupied by America.
I don't. If Turkey has a legitimate case that they are under attack from a neighbor, than they should be allowed to defend themselves. Obviously, that raises the possibility of a confrontation between Turk and US forces as the US would necessarily have to defend against a general invasion from Turkey, but as long as the objectives were narrowly defined, they should be allowed to do it. Frankly, I think there should be a new international law - any act of terrorism from the citizens of one nation against the citizens of another can be considered an act of war regardless of whether the government of the nation producing the terrorism was directly responsible for it or not. Further, all members of the UN would be required to participate militarily in the invasion of any nation producing terrorism. The excuse of 'stateless' terrorism should be made legally moot. If they are your citizens than you need to control them. Otherwise, the international community will. -- modified at 8:05 Friday 19th October, 2007
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Further, all members of the UN would be required to participate militarily in the invasion of any nation producing terrorism. The excuse of 'stateless' terrorism should be made legally moot. If they are your citizens than you need to control them. Otherwise, the international community will.
A fine idea, 5.
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Interesting concept. So the General Assembly of the UN would be able to send US troops back into Mogadishu against the will of the US governement to stop Somalia from exporting its chaos to the neigbouring countries. Hmm somehow I think US withdrawl from the UN and a unilateral declaration of war against the entire world would be more likely. Nice to know that you're a supporter of world government though. I'll watch out for you in future.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
against the will of the US governement
Of course not. But, it would be the same as any other sort of military alliance. We do the same thing as a member of NATO. Like any other nation, we would have the option of being a member of the UN and participating, or not.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
The great game itself is an immoral concept.
Yet unavoidable in a world of conflicting nation states. That you think otherwise seems to conflict with your anti globalist agenda.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Soviet domination
Influence, and yes it was possible. As possible as American hegemony.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Mr McCarthy and friends
Were rather more correct than commonly realised, given the evidence of recently declassified transcripts[^]. Keeping Soviet sympathisers and paid agents out of government organisations was a laudable goal, keeping them out of Hollywood and academia rather less so.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
unavoidable in a world of conflicting nation states
Possibly but that doesn't make it right, or even better than the global hegemony of inernational bankers that Mr Rockerfeller and others desire.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
As possible as American hegemony
A hopeless, now thankfully abandoned project which cost millions of lives and billions of dollars achieving in the end nothing but suffering. No, the Soviets never had the reach, the influence, the funds or even the will to do anything on that scale on the American continent.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
given the evidence of recently declassified transcripts[^].
I will take a look at the transcripts but my impression has always been that McCarthyism did far more harm than good, going after the innocent easy targets while failing to find the real spies and double agents that there undoubtedly were. The fear and paranoia caused seems to have distorted the American psyche and view of the world ever since. In particular the way it is used to justify being just as devioous and nefarious as the enemy is believed to be in order to combat them. Even when this image of the enemy is known to be 80% propaganda by the very people justifying the immoral actions. Thanks for the link.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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bryce wrote:
turkey wants to traipse merrily into Iraq to sort out a few issues
What could the lefties say except 'we told you that would happen' ?
bryce wrote:
120+ people blown up in Pakistan after the return of a politician.
You don't read the press enough then.
Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first Fold with us! ยค flickr
thats possibly a fair point :) bryce
--- To paraphrase Fred Dagg - the views expressed in this post are bloody good ones. --
Publitor, making Pubmed easy. http://www.sohocode.com/publitorOur kids books :The Snot Goblin, and Book 2 - the Snotgoblin and Fluff
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Speaking as a lefty who opposed the invasion and occupation of Iraq long before it went sour ( as stated above ) and who has stated on this site that the reason that Kurdistan wouldn't be allowed to be made into an independent state as it would immeadiately be occupied by Turkey. I can't help but wonder why your trying to use a very dangerous situation to score nonsensical political points. Basically the Americans have led the world in invading or launching attacks on other countries in the name of stamping out terrorism ( cf Iraq and Pakistan ) As I understand it Turkey are now simply repeating the American arguments in the context of the Kurds and using the same logic to justify an attack. In reality your just pissed because they dare to so it in a territory that you feel you control if it was some country bordering Iran you'd be only too happy for the same scenario to be enacted. So good look with the political points scoring and the oh so convinient outrage.
pseudonym67 My Articles[^] Beginning KDevelop Programming[^]
settle down there tiger - i wasn't out to score "points" (perhaps i should have made that clearer in my original post) i was asking a question in general as today it (the issue) was troubling me :) cheerypips Bryce
--- To paraphrase Fred Dagg - the views expressed in this post are bloody good ones. --
Publitor, making Pubmed easy. http://www.sohocode.com/publitorOur kids books :The Snot Goblin, and Book 2 - the Snotgoblin and Fluff
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pseudonym67 wrote:
Whereas they do have trouble when it is applied to a country occupied by America.
I don't. If Turkey has a legitimate case that they are under attack from a neighbor, than they should be allowed to defend themselves. Obviously, that raises the possibility of a confrontation between Turk and US forces as the US would necessarily have to defend against a general invasion from Turkey, but as long as the objectives were narrowly defined, they should be allowed to do it. Frankly, I think there should be a new international law - any act of terrorism from the citizens of one nation against the citizens of another can be considered an act of war regardless of whether the government of the nation producing the terrorism was directly responsible for it or not. Further, all members of the UN would be required to participate militarily in the invasion of any nation producing terrorism. The excuse of 'stateless' terrorism should be made legally moot. If they are your citizens than you need to control them. Otherwise, the international community will. -- modified at 8:05 Friday 19th October, 2007
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Further, all members of the UN would be required to participate militarily in the invasion of any nation producing terrorism
Isn't what happened with Afghanistan?
----- You seem eager to impose your preference of preventing others from imposing their preferences on others. -- Red Stateler, Master of Circular Reasoning and other fallacies If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby. -- Unknown God is the only being who, to rule, does not need to exist. -- Charles Baudelaire
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Further, all members of the UN would be required to participate militarily in the invasion of any nation producing terrorism
Isn't what happened with Afghanistan?
----- You seem eager to impose your preference of preventing others from imposing their preferences on others. -- Red Stateler, Master of Circular Reasoning and other fallacies If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby. -- Unknown God is the only being who, to rule, does not need to exist. -- Charles Baudelaire
Le Centriste wrote:
Isn't what happened with Afghanistan?
Not quite. I'm referring to a standing international anti-terrorism alliance such as NATO served as an anti-soviet alliance. It would not be a temporary coalition.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
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pseudonym67 wrote:
Whereas they do have trouble when it is applied to a country occupied by America.
I don't. If Turkey has a legitimate case that they are under attack from a neighbor, than they should be allowed to defend themselves. Obviously, that raises the possibility of a confrontation between Turk and US forces as the US would necessarily have to defend against a general invasion from Turkey, but as long as the objectives were narrowly defined, they should be allowed to do it. Frankly, I think there should be a new international law - any act of terrorism from the citizens of one nation against the citizens of another can be considered an act of war regardless of whether the government of the nation producing the terrorism was directly responsible for it or not. Further, all members of the UN would be required to participate militarily in the invasion of any nation producing terrorism. The excuse of 'stateless' terrorism should be made legally moot. If they are your citizens than you need to control them. Otherwise, the international community will. -- modified at 8:05 Friday 19th October, 2007
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Further, all members of the UN would be required to participate militarily in the invasion of any nation producing terrorism.
Given that half the member countries in the UN seemingly have no problem with terrorist states (given that they either are terrorist states, sympathetic to their anti-hegemonic cause or are too pathetic of countries to be targeted by international terrorists), I'd think that would be highly unlikely.
Anybody rape your wife yet? -IAmChrisMcCall
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Further, all members of the UN would be required to participate militarily in the invasion of any nation producing terrorism.
Given that half the member countries in the UN seemingly have no problem with terrorist states (given that they either are terrorist states, sympathetic to their anti-hegemonic cause or are too pathetic of countries to be targeted by international terrorists), I'd think that would be highly unlikely.
Anybody rape your wife yet? -IAmChrisMcCall
I agree. But if the reality of the international situation today is that there is no effective means of dealing with terrorism, than anything the US wishes to do, any time, any place, for any reason, is completely legitimate. And there is absolutely no rational argument that can be made agaisnt it. If the international community doesn't like that, than they should fix the goddamned problem or suffer the consequencies.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
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I agree. But if the reality of the international situation today is that there is no effective means of dealing with terrorism, than anything the US wishes to do, any time, any place, for any reason, is completely legitimate. And there is absolutely no rational argument that can be made agaisnt it. If the international community doesn't like that, than they should fix the goddamned problem or suffer the consequencies.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
What the world needs is Team America..."F*** Yeah!"
Anybody rape your wife yet? -IAmChrisMcCall
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
unavoidable in a world of conflicting nation states
Possibly but that doesn't make it right, or even better than the global hegemony of inernational bankers that Mr Rockerfeller and others desire.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
As possible as American hegemony
A hopeless, now thankfully abandoned project which cost millions of lives and billions of dollars achieving in the end nothing but suffering. No, the Soviets never had the reach, the influence, the funds or even the will to do anything on that scale on the American continent.
Ryan Roberts wrote:
given the evidence of recently declassified transcripts[^].
I will take a look at the transcripts but my impression has always been that McCarthyism did far more harm than good, going after the innocent easy targets while failing to find the real spies and double agents that there undoubtedly were. The fear and paranoia caused seems to have distorted the American psyche and view of the world ever since. In particular the way it is used to justify being just as devioous and nefarious as the enemy is believed to be in order to combat them. Even when this image of the enemy is known to be 80% propaganda by the very people justifying the immoral actions. Thanks for the link.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
You never got back to me about whether or not you/UKIP would support a Cornish Assembly...
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You never got back to me about whether or not you/UKIP would support a Cornish Assembly...
Ahh it was you Setve. I lost my link to that discussion somewhere in the blizard of CP mail. I did make it to the party conference this year and although I didn't get to speak to everyone I wanted to I did bring up the topic of Cornish assembly support. At the moment we don't have a policy either for or against so the response is yes but only to the extent that it's consistent with our local devolution policy. The question has been passed on to Malcolm Wood, South West organiser and either the South West will take this up or it may get passed back to the Constitutional policy committee, which I'm on. Either way I'll try and keep you in the loop when I hear anything.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.