Enquiry: Harvard and Ali G
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Quote: "If you had an argument I would merrily destroy it as I have many times in the past. " Ok, why would God, if he knows everything in advance, create billions of people that will never hear the gospel, knowing that he is dooming them to eternal torture? This obviously makes him evil. Quote: "As you don't I will refrain from destroying you as that would not be very Christian." :laugh::laugh::laugh:
Demon Possessed wrote:
Ok, why would God, if he knows everything in advance, create billions of people that will never hear the gospel, knowing that he is dooming them to eternal torture? This obviously makes him evil.
At best, this is just an opinion. It is based on your emotion rather than Biblical scripture. If God had kept those destined for hell to have never been born, the net result is that we would all be going to hell. That a person is destined for hell is not the same as the person being predestined for hell.
"Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for, in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes and the car and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it." - Ellen Goodman
"To have a respect for ourselves guides our morals; to have deference for others governs our manners." - Laurence Sterne
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Quote: "No I castigate you not for "not understanding" but for claiming understanding you don't have." I am sure you understand all the aspects of your religion much better than I. But I understand that it goes against all logic and reason to blindly accept a religion as truth when there is no evidence for any of them. There are many religions, Christianity, Islam, neopaganism, to name a few, and each one of them has people that are just as convinced as you that they are right. And none of them have any evidence to support it. It's all very ridiculous.
Demon Possessed wrote:
And none of them have any evidence to support it.
Actually, Christians are the only ones who lack such evidence. For all others, their god/deity can actually be dug up from the grave, thus proving that a mere mortal was buried.
"Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for, in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes and the car and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it." - Ellen Goodman
"To have a respect for ourselves guides our morals; to have deference for others governs our manners." - Laurence Sterne
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Demon Possessed wrote:
Ok, why would God, if he knows everything in advance, create billions of people that will never hear the gospel, knowing that he is dooming them to eternal torture? This obviously makes him evil.
At best, this is just an opinion. It is based on your emotion rather than Biblical scripture. If God had kept those destined for hell to have never been born, the net result is that we would all be going to hell. That a person is destined for hell is not the same as the person being predestined for hell.
"Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for, in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes and the car and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it." - Ellen Goodman
"To have a respect for ourselves guides our morals; to have deference for others governs our manners." - Laurence Sterne
The Bible says God is love. The definition of love does not include torturing people.
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:laugh: That book trashes Aquinas into oblivion. On the other hand, Aquinas posses as much reason as Illion, so for someone like George Smith, it was probably very relaxing to do it.
Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:
That book trashes Aquinas into oblivion. On the other hand, Aquinas posses as much reason as Illion, so for someone like George Smith, it was probably very relaxing to do it.
Unfortunately, for those who totally abandon reason, like MF and Ilion, no amount of reason will ever change them. They just keep spouting that they're reasonable and everyone who disagrees isn't and if they weren't holding hands, they'd be fitted for a straight jacket.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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Demon Possessed wrote:
Ok, why would God, if he knows everything in advance, create billions of people that will never hear the gospel, knowing that he is dooming them to eternal torture? This obviously makes him evil.
At best, this is just an opinion. It is based on your emotion rather than Biblical scripture. If God had kept those destined for hell to have never been born, the net result is that we would all be going to hell. That a person is destined for hell is not the same as the person being predestined for hell.
"Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for, in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes and the car and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it." - Ellen Goodman
"To have a respect for ourselves guides our morals; to have deference for others governs our manners." - Laurence Sterne
DavidCrow wrote:
... the net result is that we would all be going to hell.
If one wants to use the phrase "going to hell" (and pretty much whatever one may mean by it), that *is* our default condition. But, yes, DemonChow's "arguments" (may Socrates forgive me), and those of most atheologists, are emotional, rather rational.
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Demon Possessed wrote:
And none of them have any evidence to support it.
Actually, Christians are the only ones who lack such evidence. For all others, their god/deity can actually be dug up from the grave, thus proving that a mere mortal was buried.
"Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for, in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes and the car and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it." - Ellen Goodman
"To have a respect for ourselves guides our morals; to have deference for others governs our manners." - Laurence Sterne
Quote: "Actually, Christians are the only ones who lack such evidence. For all others, their god/deity can actually be dug up from the grave, thus proving that a mere mortal was buried." What an ignorant statement. I have never heard of Hindu or Norse Gods being dug up from graves. :rolleyes:
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Quote: "Except the experience of millions of people over thousands of years." The fact that millions of people over thousands of years believed something is not evidence that it is true. That is called the appeal to authority fallacy. Millions of people over the years have believed that the earth was flat, that Mohammad was God's prophet, etc... Quote: "you place your own understanding above all those who are so convinced. " And by believing in a spherical earth you place your understanding above all those millions of people over thousands of years! Quote: "you deny the existence of your own beliefs, making yourself less honest and less rational even than them. " So I secretly believe in God, but deny it? Ok....
The idiot wrote:
making yourself less honest and less rational even than them
If you want to do this guy a favor, buy him a friggin dictionary. He has no clue what reason/rationality means.
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
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Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:
That book trashes Aquinas into oblivion. On the other hand, Aquinas posses as much reason as Illion, so for someone like George Smith, it was probably very relaxing to do it.
Unfortunately, for those who totally abandon reason, like MF and Ilion, no amount of reason will ever change them. They just keep spouting that they're reasonable and everyone who disagrees isn't and if they weren't holding hands, they'd be fitted for a straight jacket.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
Tim Craig wrote:
for those who totally abandon reason, like MF
Go on, give us an example? :laugh: I've no connection that I'm aware of with Ilion beyond both posting on CP. To attack Chritianity Atheism must abandon reason. By denying salvation it makes a philosophy out of despair.;P
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:
That book trashes Aquinas into oblivion. On the other hand, Aquinas posses as much reason as Illion, so for someone like George Smith, it was probably very relaxing to do it.
Unfortunately, for those who totally abandon reason, like MF and Ilion, no amount of reason will ever change them. They just keep spouting that they're reasonable and everyone who disagrees isn't and if they weren't holding hands, they'd be fitted for a straight jacket.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
If MF has been unreasonable in his arguments it should be fairly simple for someone who is reasonable to point out exactly how his argument is unreasonable, rather just claim it is. Without evidence of faulty reasoning,
Tim Craig wrote:
for those who totally abandon reason, like MF
just sounds like an opinion, rather than a self-evident truth.
Ian
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DavidCrow wrote:
... the net result is that we would all be going to hell.
If one wants to use the phrase "going to hell" (and pretty much whatever one may mean by it), that *is* our default condition. But, yes, DemonChow's "arguments" (may Socrates forgive me), and those of most atheologists, are emotional, rather rational.
Quote: "But, yes, DemonChow's "arguments" (may Socrates forgive me), and those of most atheologists, are emotional, rather rational." I think you have it backwards. It is a rational question to ask why God would create so many people knowing he would have to torture them forever. And it is one that I have never heard a Christian directly answer. And torturing people forever fits the traditional definition of "evil", while the bible says "God is love". There is very much an emotional appeal to believing that there is a God who will torture most everyone forever, but that he loves you enough to save you, and that even if you never amount to anything, you will still go to heaven and most everyone else go to hell.
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Interesting thread... Having become a christian (of sorts) in my thirties after spending almost a decade deprogramming myself out of the mental cage I like calling fundamentalist atheism, I just can't resist a comment. First a disclaimer: I am a programmer, not a philosopher or scholar. What I write here is based mostly on popular science and diverse other readings. Historical and other inaccuracies are to be expected, but I hope they don't warp the message too badly (or I'd have to rethink my personal philosophical/religious platform). Also, I'm from Sweden, so English isn't my native tongue - this may show in places. For what it's worth: What initiated my deprogramming process were a number of realizations from reading about quantum physics and modern philosophy (most notably Wittgenstein). Specifically, I didn't read *any* religious books or publications. That I'd one day end up as an active member of my local church would have surprised me immensely at the time (and still does, to some extent). The one most important realization was the one Matthew reiterates - that all reasoning is based on assumptions that can never be proven. A couple of hundred years or so, Lorenz and others tried to prove Euclid's geometry by creating "obviously" invalid alternatives (based on "obviously" invalid assumptions) and trying to disprove them. They failed miserably. The resulting geometries (geometrical systems may be a better English expression) were indeed weird, but (to everyones surprise) proved to be mathematically consistent, workable and without contradiction (incidentally, Einstein used one of the concoctions left behind by Lorenz as a mathematical tool in his general theory of relativity). This is one of the things that spawned the process that culminated with Wittgenstein and others (scientifically) reaching the conclusion that reasoning can't help us in finding truth - which is today predominant in the scientific community. Science since then (ca the thirties, I beleive) is all about models - not truth. A model that produces correct predictions is a good model, one that doesn't isn't. Truth lies elsewhere, and is entirely irrelevant to modern science. This is the paradigm shift that made "paradigm shift" a buzzword, by the way... My two cents: The "science" used by people trying to disprove God's existence is thus - as of early last century - no longer science. It is just ignorance. Ditto for any science that tries to *prove* God's existence. The latter statement is important. Yes, I call mysel
Abonet wrote:
that all reasoning is based on assumptions that can never be proven.
Jag rekommenderar att du läser George H. Smiths bok "Atheism, A Case Against God", innan du köper det påståendet helt och hållet.
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
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The Bible says God is love. The definition of love does not include torturing people.
Demon Possessed wrote:
The Bible says God is love.
True.
Demon Possessed wrote:
The definition of love does not include torturing people.
One such problem about the loving God of Christianity posed by skeptics such as yourself rests on an erroneous assumption. Because of an invalid understanding of God's foreknowledge, you are seeking to avoid the consequences of your free will by offering a solution that violates the loving character of God. Therefore, your solution would not be a valid one for the God of Christianity.
"Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for, in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes and the car and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it." - Ellen Goodman
"To have a respect for ourselves guides our morals; to have deference for others governs our manners." - Laurence Sterne
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Demon Possessed wrote:
The Bible says God is love.
True.
Demon Possessed wrote:
The definition of love does not include torturing people.
One such problem about the loving God of Christianity posed by skeptics such as yourself rests on an erroneous assumption. Because of an invalid understanding of God's foreknowledge, you are seeking to avoid the consequences of your free will by offering a solution that violates the loving character of God. Therefore, your solution would not be a valid one for the God of Christianity.
"Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for, in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes and the car and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it." - Ellen Goodman
"To have a respect for ourselves guides our morals; to have deference for others governs our manners." - Laurence Sterne
Quote: "Because of an invalid understanding of God's foreknowledge, you are seeking to avoid the consequences of your free will by offering a solution that violates the loving character of God." So what kind of foreknowledge do you think God has? Christians are always saying He is omniscient. And the Bible says he created evil. Why would a god that IS love create evil? That is a blatant contradiction. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)
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If MF has been unreasonable in his arguments it should be fairly simple for someone who is reasonable to point out exactly how his argument is unreasonable, rather just claim it is. Without evidence of faulty reasoning,
Tim Craig wrote:
for those who totally abandon reason, like MF
just sounds like an opinion, rather than a self-evident truth.
Ian
Mundo Cani wrote:
If MF has been unreasonable in his arguments it should be fairly simple for someone who is reasonable to point out exactly how his argument is unreasonable, rather just claim it is.
He hasn't presented an argument. All he's done is spout a bunch of religious nonsense with no argument or proof offered. If I asserted the belief in pink unicorns, you wouldn't expect to be required to disprove it, you'd expect me to prove it. So I expect him to prove his wild assed assertions.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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Quote: "But, yes, DemonChow's "arguments" (may Socrates forgive me), and those of most atheologists, are emotional, rather rational." I think you have it backwards. It is a rational question to ask why God would create so many people knowing he would have to torture them forever. And it is one that I have never heard a Christian directly answer. And torturing people forever fits the traditional definition of "evil", while the bible says "God is love". There is very much an emotional appeal to believing that there is a God who will torture most everyone forever, but that he loves you enough to save you, and that even if you never amount to anything, you will still go to heaven and most everyone else go to hell.
A pretty straight forward straw-man argument Kyle.
Demon Possessed wrote:
he would have to torture them forever
Source please? Nowhere does it say that God will torture anyone forever. The very essense of Hell is the absence of God.
Demon Possessed wrote:
torturing people forever fits the traditional definition of "evil"
because it is. You still don't have a question let alone an argument.:)
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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Tim Craig wrote:
for those who totally abandon reason, like MF
Go on, give us an example? :laugh: I've no connection that I'm aware of with Ilion beyond both posting on CP. To attack Chritianity Atheism must abandon reason. By denying salvation it makes a philosophy out of despair.;P
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Tim Craig wrote: for those who totally abandon reason, like MF Go on, give us an example?
Ummm, weren't you the one recommending I read a book on how to abandon reason? :rolleyes:
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
I've no connection that I'm aware of with Ilion beyond both posting on CP.
You're brothers under the skin.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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Mundo Cani wrote:
If MF has been unreasonable in his arguments it should be fairly simple for someone who is reasonable to point out exactly how his argument is unreasonable, rather just claim it is.
He hasn't presented an argument. All he's done is spout a bunch of religious nonsense with no argument or proof offered. If I asserted the belief in pink unicorns, you wouldn't expect to be required to disprove it, you'd expect me to prove it. So I expect him to prove his wild assed assertions.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
No. What he's done is to call you on a daft, not to say blasphemous, sig which you can't justify. I don't have to prove anything any more than the God who made you has to prove himself to you. :laugh:
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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If MF has been unreasonable in his arguments it should be fairly simple for someone who is reasonable to point out exactly how his argument is unreasonable, rather just claim it is. Without evidence of faulty reasoning,
Tim Craig wrote:
for those who totally abandon reason, like MF
just sounds like an opinion, rather than a self-evident truth.
Ian
Mundo Cani wrote:
If MF has been unreasonable in his arguments it should be fairly simple for someone who is reasonable to point out exactly how his argument is unreasonable, rather just claim it is.
Of course it should be. Which is why it ain't gonna happen.
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A pretty straight forward straw-man argument Kyle.
Demon Possessed wrote:
he would have to torture them forever
Source please? Nowhere does it say that God will torture anyone forever. The very essense of Hell is the absence of God.
Demon Possessed wrote:
torturing people forever fits the traditional definition of "evil"
because it is. You still don't have a question let alone an argument.:)
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Wow, this is getting old, arguing with 3 Christians at one time. Quote: "Source please? Nowhere does it say that God will torture anyone forever. The very essense of Hell is the absence of God. " Feeling a bit nit-picky are we? The Bible says God will cast people into the lake of fire to be "tormented day and night for ever and ever". He might not be the one there causing the constant pain, but he puts them there, according to the bible.
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Wow, this is getting old, arguing with 3 Christians at one time. Quote: "Source please? Nowhere does it say that God will torture anyone forever. The very essense of Hell is the absence of God. " Feeling a bit nit-picky are we? The Bible says God will cast people into the lake of fire to be "tormented day and night for ever and ever". He might not be the one there causing the constant pain, but he puts them there, according to the bible.