Enquiry: Harvard and Ali G
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A pretty straight forward straw-man argument Kyle.
Demon Possessed wrote:
he would have to torture them forever
Source please? Nowhere does it say that God will torture anyone forever. The very essense of Hell is the absence of God.
Demon Possessed wrote:
torturing people forever fits the traditional definition of "evil"
because it is. You still don't have a question let alone an argument.:)
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Wow, this is getting old, arguing with 3 Christians at one time. Quote: "Source please? Nowhere does it say that God will torture anyone forever. The very essense of Hell is the absence of God. " Feeling a bit nit-picky are we? The Bible says God will cast people into the lake of fire to be "tormented day and night for ever and ever". He might not be the one there causing the constant pain, but he puts them there, according to the bible.
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Wow, this is getting old, arguing with 3 Christians at one time. Quote: "Source please? Nowhere does it say that God will torture anyone forever. The very essense of Hell is the absence of God. " Feeling a bit nit-picky are we? The Bible says God will cast people into the lake of fire to be "tormented day and night for ever and ever". He might not be the one there causing the constant pain, but he puts them there, according to the bible.
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Quote: "Because of an invalid understanding of God's foreknowledge, you are seeking to avoid the consequences of your free will by offering a solution that violates the loving character of God." So what kind of foreknowledge do you think God has? Christians are always saying He is omniscient. And the Bible says he created evil. Why would a god that IS love create evil? That is a blatant contradiction. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)
Demon Possessed wrote:
So what kind of foreknowledge do you think God has?
For obvious reasons (I am finite, God is infinite), that would be impossible for me, or any other person, to answer.
Demon Possessed wrote:
And the Bible says he created evil.
Evil is not a thing (that can be created), it is something that occurs. Evil is simply the absence of good, much like cold, which also cannot be created, is merely the absence of heat. God did not create evil, but He does allow it to happen. God did not promise us a smooth ride, but He does promise a safe landing.
"Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for, in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes and the car and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it." - Ellen Goodman
"To have a respect for ourselves guides our morals; to have deference for others governs our manners." - Laurence Sterne
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Tim Craig wrote: for those who totally abandon reason, like MF Go on, give us an example?
Ummm, weren't you the one recommending I read a book on how to abandon reason? :rolleyes:
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
I've no connection that I'm aware of with Ilion beyond both posting on CP.
You're brothers under the skin.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
Tim Craig wrote:
Ummm, weren't you the one recommending I read a book on how to abandon reason?
Judging a book by its cover is _not _very reasonable.
Ian__
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Demon Possessed wrote:
So what kind of foreknowledge do you think God has?
For obvious reasons (I am finite, God is infinite), that would be impossible for me, or any other person, to answer.
Demon Possessed wrote:
And the Bible says he created evil.
Evil is not a thing (that can be created), it is something that occurs. Evil is simply the absence of good, much like cold, which also cannot be created, is merely the absence of heat. God did not create evil, but He does allow it to happen. God did not promise us a smooth ride, but He does promise a safe landing.
"Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for, in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes and the car and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it." - Ellen Goodman
"To have a respect for ourselves guides our morals; to have deference for others governs our manners." - Laurence Sterne
Quote: "Evil is not a thing (that can be created)," I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)
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Abonet wrote:
that all reasoning is based on assumptions that can never be proven.
Jag rekommenderar att du läser George H. Smiths bok "Atheism, A Case Against God", innan du köper det påståendet helt och hållet.
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
For the benefit of the majority of the Code Project members - that aren't from Sweden - I'll reply in English: Jörgen wrote: I recommend you to read George H. Smiths book "Atheism, A Case Against God" before you buy that statement completely. Yes, it's on my reading list (I may get to it in a year or so). However, I find it hard to beleive that a single book could topple what I understand to be (one way of formulating) the current majority standpoint of the scientific community as a whole. It would take some substantial corroboration for that, I beleive. Then again, I might actually be *wrong*... :-) /Peter
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Tim Craig wrote:
Why the hell would anyone want to escape reason?
Read the book and find out. BTW Over 50% of under 18's in UK survey data now say they do not believe in the existence of truth. Insanity is the new religion of the masses and rationalists and atheists like yourself are so busy accusing Christians of messing with people minds they have missed the demise of the entire relevance of their own religion. The irony is that the internally consistent, however wrong, position of rationalist atheists is now closer to fundamentalist Christianity than it is to the main stream of public attitudes. It holds definite beliefs and is prepared to stand up for them. Takes logical argument seriously and is dismayed by broken thinking and weak reasoning.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
the internally consistent, however wrong, position of rationalist atheists is now closer to fundamentalist Christianity than it is to the main stream of public attitudes. It holds definite beliefs and is prepared to stand up for them. Takes logical argument seriously and is dismayed by broken thinking and weak reasoning.
You miss the whole point of atheism. We're the ones who hold no beliefs. You theists are the believers. Fundamentalist christians hardly take logical argument seriously as they present flawed arguments and then won't accept that they have flawed arguments. Everything for them falls back to believe it without question or burn in hell.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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Wow, this is getting old, arguing with 3 Christians at one time. Quote: "Source please? Nowhere does it say that God will torture anyone forever. The very essense of Hell is the absence of God. " Feeling a bit nit-picky are we? The Bible says God will cast people into the lake of fire to be "tormented day and night for ever and ever". He might not be the one there causing the constant pain, but he puts them there, according to the bible.
He will cast them out of his presense where they will have to put up with the consequences of existing without God and with only the other beings who have chosen to reject him. Yes it will be eternal torture. You choose that path if you think it best for you. Personally I'd rather spend eternity in the presence of God with all the blessings that brings. I have no doubt that many of those in Hell will be blaming God for putting them there, something they have chosen. Doesn't make it true and I hope you won't be among them. Please get a some help with your understanding of the Bible before telling others what it says and what it doesn't.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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Quote: "But, yes, DemonChow's "arguments" (may Socrates forgive me), and those of most atheologists, are emotional, rather rational." I think you have it backwards. It is a rational question to ask why God would create so many people knowing he would have to torture them forever. And it is one that I have never heard a Christian directly answer. And torturing people forever fits the traditional definition of "evil", while the bible says "God is love". There is very much an emotional appeal to believing that there is a God who will torture most everyone forever, but that he loves you enough to save you, and that even if you never amount to anything, you will still go to heaven and most everyone else go to hell.
Demon Possessed wrote:
And it is one that I have never heard a Christian directly answer.
Since our parents knew that we would eventually disobey them someday, should they therefore be accountable/responsible for our disobedience even though they knew it would someday happen? Why create us at all knowing that we would someday disappoint them?
"Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for, in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes and the car and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it." - Ellen Goodman
"To have a respect for ourselves guides our morals; to have deference for others governs our manners." - Laurence Sterne
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Mundo Cani wrote:
If MF has been unreasonable in his arguments it should be fairly simple for someone who is reasonable to point out exactly how his argument is unreasonable, rather just claim it is.
He hasn't presented an argument. All he's done is spout a bunch of religious nonsense with no argument or proof offered. If I asserted the belief in pink unicorns, you wouldn't expect to be required to disprove it, you'd expect me to prove it. So I expect him to prove his wild assed assertions.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
Tim Craig wrote:
He hasn't presented an argument
If you cannot see the argument he clearly presented, then you disqualify yourself from reasonable debate. He is positing that reasoning is based on accepting axioms that cannot be proved and that reasoning itself cannot produce the axioms on which it is based. So, if you think that reasoning is faulty, it is incumbent upon you to show us how it is unreasonable. To simply claim it is unreasonable without using a well reasoned argument would be embarrassing, don’t you think?
Ian
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Demon Possessed wrote:
Wow, this is getting old, arguing with 3 Christians at one time.
Come now! You don't argue, you don't know how to. What you do know how to do is whine and bitch and throw tantrums.
Quote: "What you do know how to do is whine and bitch" Jesus is gonna get you for saying that! Ephesians 4:2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love
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Wow, this is getting old, arguing with 3 Christians at one time. Quote: "Source please? Nowhere does it say that God will torture anyone forever. The very essense of Hell is the absence of God. " Feeling a bit nit-picky are we? The Bible says God will cast people into the lake of fire to be "tormented day and night for ever and ever". He might not be the one there causing the constant pain, but he puts them there, according to the bible.
Demon Possessed wrote:
...but he puts them there, according to the bible.
God did not place them there, they made the choice to go there. Those same people also had an alternate choice.
"Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for, in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes and the car and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it." - Ellen Goodman
"To have a respect for ourselves guides our morals; to have deference for others governs our manners." - Laurence Sterne
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Demon Possessed wrote:
And it is one that I have never heard a Christian directly answer.
Since our parents knew that we would eventually disobey them someday, should they therefore be accountable/responsible for our disobedience even though they knew it would someday happen? Why create us at all knowing that we would someday disappoint them?
"Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for, in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes and the car and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it." - Ellen Goodman
"To have a respect for ourselves guides our morals; to have deference for others governs our manners." - Laurence Sterne
Quote: "Since our parents knew that we would eventually disobey them someday, should they therefore be accountable/responsible for our disobedience even though they knew it would someday happen? Why create us at all knowing that we would someday disappoint them?" That analogy is fundamentally flawed, because parent's don't torture their kids forever if they misbehave like the Bible says that the Christian God does to his creations when they sin.
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
the internally consistent, however wrong, position of rationalist atheists is now closer to fundamentalist Christianity than it is to the main stream of public attitudes. It holds definite beliefs and is prepared to stand up for them. Takes logical argument seriously and is dismayed by broken thinking and weak reasoning.
You miss the whole point of atheism. We're the ones who hold no beliefs. You theists are the believers. Fundamentalist christians hardly take logical argument seriously as they present flawed arguments and then won't accept that they have flawed arguments. Everything for them falls back to believe it without question or burn in hell.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
Tim Craig wrote:
We're the ones who hold no beliefs.
:laugh: That would be why you have no reason then.
Tim Craig wrote:
Fundamentalist christians hardly take logical argument seriously
except that we do.
Tim Craig wrote:
they present flawed arguments and then won't accept that they have flawed arguments.
like?
Tim Craig wrote:
Everything for them falls back to believe it without question or burn in hell.
How about believing with questions so that you don't have to justly burn in Hell.:cool:
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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The idiot wrote:
making yourself less honest and less rational even than them
If you want to do this guy a favor, buy him a friggin dictionary. He has no clue what reason/rationality means.
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
The interesting thing about this thread is how many people have claimed MF is unreasonable, without defeating his argument with reason of their own. Something's amiss... If his argument is unreasonable, please by all means show the rest of us. Wait... do you even know what his argument is?
Ian
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I checked out the book link and was amused by the top review. The reviewer shouts "ATHEISM IS NOT A PROOF THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST. INSTEAD IT IS THE ASSERTION THAT THEISM DOES NOT PROVIDE AN ADEQUATE PROOF OF THE EXISTENCE OF GOD." To which the quite obvious answer is, Theism in not a proof that God exits. Instead it is the assertion that he does and furthermore that his existance and revealed character is 100% consistent with all observed phenomena. It is positive, predictive, functional and useful, unlike atheism which is empty, fails by definition to increase knowledge because a negative cannot be proved, is non predictive, non functional and at odds with the experiences of billions of people. Case dismissed :-D
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
To which the quite obvious answer is, Theism in not a proof that God exits. Instead it is the assertion that he does
You nailed it. You have no valid rational proof. Not even a weak one. Assert all you like. Assertions are not proof.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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He will cast them out of his presense where they will have to put up with the consequences of existing without God and with only the other beings who have chosen to reject him. Yes it will be eternal torture. You choose that path if you think it best for you. Personally I'd rather spend eternity in the presence of God with all the blessings that brings. I have no doubt that many of those in Hell will be blaming God for putting them there, something they have chosen. Doesn't make it true and I hope you won't be among them. Please get a some help with your understanding of the Bible before telling others what it says and what it doesn't.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Quote: He will cast them out of his presense where they will have to put up with the consequences of existing without God and with only the other beings who have chosen to reject him. Look it up, the Bible clearly says that there is fire and punishment in hell, not just the absence of God. But this all beside the point, because there is no rational reason to believe in God in the first place. And it is irrational, but comforting, to believe that people live on after they die. If changes in the brain can affect consciousness, why should someone think that consciousness is caused by and will live on in some magical immaterial "soul"?
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Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Tim Craig wrote: for those who totally abandon reason, like MF Go on, give us an example?
Ummm, weren't you the one recommending I read a book on how to abandon reason? :rolleyes:
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
I've no connection that I'm aware of with Ilion beyond both posting on CP.
You're brothers under the skin.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
Tim Craig wrote:
Ummm, weren't you the one recommending I read a book on how to abandon reason?
:doh:No you idiot I was recommending you a book on how western civilization is abandoning reason because it has abandoned Christianity. How your very desire for rationality over Christianity is undermined by itself.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
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No. What he's done is to call you on a daft, not to say blasphemous, sig which you can't justify. I don't have to prove anything any more than the God who made you has to prove himself to you. :laugh:
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
a daft, not to say blasphemous, sig which you can't justify.
Awww, poor baby. Can't your god take it? Does Matthew have to go around trying to beat up people who say bad things about him? :laugh:
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
I don't have to prove anything any more than the God who made you has to prove himself to you.
Then quit running around acting like you have proved something. Your baseless assertions and ranting isn't proof of anything. You're the one with the extraordinary cliams. If you want people to believe with you, back them up.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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Tim Craig wrote:
Ummm, weren't you the one recommending I read a book on how to abandon reason?
Judging a book by its cover is _not _very reasonable.
Ian__
Mundo Cani wrote:
Judging a book by its cover is not very reasonable.
Really? If I see a book with a title that's obviously tripe, I should waste my time reading it? Would you read a book with the title "Jesus is a Shithead"?
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.