Enquiry: Harvard and Ali G
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Demon Possessed wrote:
So what kind of foreknowledge do you think God has?
For obvious reasons (I am finite, God is infinite), that would be impossible for me, or any other person, to answer.
Demon Possessed wrote:
And the Bible says he created evil.
Evil is not a thing (that can be created), it is something that occurs. Evil is simply the absence of good, much like cold, which also cannot be created, is merely the absence of heat. God did not create evil, but He does allow it to happen. God did not promise us a smooth ride, but He does promise a safe landing.
"Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for, in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes and the car and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it." - Ellen Goodman
"To have a respect for ourselves guides our morals; to have deference for others governs our manners." - Laurence Sterne
DavidCrow wrote:
For obvious reasons (I am finite, God is infinite), that would be impossible for me, or any other person, to answer.
So you're saying god is unknowable by man yet you all claim to know so much about him.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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Demon Possessed wrote:
Wow, this is getting old, arguing with 3 Christians at one time.
Come now! You don't argue, you don't know how to. What you do know how to do is whine and bitch and throw tantrums.
Ilíon wrote:
What you do know how to do is whine and bitch and throw tantrums.
I seem to remember a lot of tantrums by you. You even got so mad you picked up your marbles and left for a while. Too bad it wasn't long enough. :rolleyes:
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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Demon Possessed wrote:
And it is one that I have never heard a Christian directly answer.
Since our parents knew that we would eventually disobey them someday, should they therefore be accountable/responsible for our disobedience even though they knew it would someday happen? Why create us at all knowing that we would someday disappoint them?
"Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a car that you are still paying for, in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes and the car and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it." - Ellen Goodman
"To have a respect for ourselves guides our morals; to have deference for others governs our manners." - Laurence Sterne
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Ilíon wrote:
What you do know how to do is whine and bitch and throw tantrums.
I seem to remember a lot of tantrums by you. You even got so mad you picked up your marbles and left for a while. Too bad it wasn't long enough. :rolleyes:
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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Abonet wrote:
For the benefit of the majority of the Code Project members - that aren't from Sweden - I'll reply in English: . Jörgen wrote: I recommend you to read George H. Smiths book "Atheism, A Case Against God" before you buy that statement completely.
The statement you'd made, and of which Mr Sigvardsson imagines reading a book will cure you, was this:
Abonet wrote:
The one most important realization [which lead you to deprogram yourself from 'atheism'] was the one Matthew reiterates - that all reasoning is based on assumptions that can never be proven.
All of which merely shows us that -- as is typical for the type -- Mr Sigvardsson hasn't the faintest understanding of what he presumes to talk about. The fact is that even were it possible to present a logically valid and sound case for 'atheism' and/or against Christianity, the truth that all reasoning is based on assumptions that can never be proven remains unchanged and unchallenged.
Ilíon wrote:
Mr Sigvardsson imagines reading a book will cure you
Aren't you christians always pointing to a book and saying it's the answer? You think you have a monopoly on the book business? :laugh: -- modified at 19:25 Tuesday 27th November, 2007
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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You are wrong because you just don't have the understanding to know that God is real! Please get saved and give money to a preacher or Jesus will have his revenge and then you will believe.
And you in turn, will fall by the sword of Allah! <Achmed-the-dead-terrorist>Infideeeeel!</Achmed-the-dead-terrorist> ;)
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
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Ilíon wrote:
Mr Sigvardsson imagines reading a book will cure you
Aren't you christians always pointing to a book and saying it's the answer? You think you have a monopoly on the book business? :laugh: -- modified at 19:25 Tuesday 27th November, 2007
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
ROFLMAO!!! Do you at all read what you reply to? Check out the posts preceding this, please... :-) Later, Peter
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Ilíon wrote:
Mr Sigvardsson imagines reading a book will cure you
Aren't you christians always pointing to a book and saying it's the answer? You think you have a monopoly on the book business? :laugh: -- modified at 19:25 Tuesday 27th November, 2007
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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Where did he claim that reasoning is faulty? Again, that is not what the book is about. MF's argument is this: reasoning is based on accepting axioms that cannot be proved and that reasoning itself cannot produce the axioms on which it is based. Now, would you like to engage this argument or continue with strawman fallacies by suggesting MF's argument is something other than it clearly is? As for your assertion,
Tim Craig wrote:
reason is the only path to knowledge
What is the starting point for reasoning? Is it not an axiom that itself cannot be proved? Furthermore, could you sit in your closet and "reason" what the weather is today?
Ian
Mundo Cani wrote:
What is the starting point for reasoning?
The starting point for knowledge is reason and sensual perception. We use reason to integrate what our senses tell us into a coherent framework of what we know.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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I'm not asking you to read it. I'm merely pointing out that accusing MF of arguing that reasoning is faulty because he recommended a book to you called, "escape from reason" is utterly amazing.
Ian
Mundo Cani wrote:
I'm merely pointing out that accusing MF of arguing that reasoning is faulty because he recommended a book to you called, "escape from reason" is utterly amazing.
But he doesn't use reason as a basis he expects blind faith. That's hardly a reasonable alternative. As such, anything he suggests is suspect.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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Tim Craig wrote:
No, I have no belief that god does exist
So then you're not sure if he does or not? The lack of belief on the topic of the existence of God amounts to uncertainty. Of course there's nothing wrong with uncertainty--it's a perfectly reasonable position. I just want to know where you're coming from. So then, you don't know if God exists or not? If this is not your position, then you either believe he exists, or you believe he doesn't exist. Based on your posts, I'd say it's clear you don't hold a belief that God exists. So then it's down to two options: Either you believe God does not exist, or you're not sure if he exists. If it's the latter, then you yourself testify that it is not a wholly unreasonable idea (otherwise you would have discarded it completely). So either you are unsure, or you believe he does not exist. I'm guessing the latter. And if I'm right, were you unaware that you believed that? Or were you just being dishonest?
Tim Craig wrote:
Since you're the one with the belief, you need to prove it.
I don't need to prove it. It is a personal belief that I hold for myself. I have not asked you to accept it.
Ian
Mundo Cani wrote:
you believe he does not exist.
I have no belief that god exists. It's a subtle but important distinction. My lack of belief is rational in that there's no proof or anything that leads me to the conclusion that any god exists.
Mundo Cani wrote:
I don't need to prove it. It is a personal belief that I hold for myself. I have not asked you to accept it.
YOu certainly sound like you are. Or are you so unsure that when you hear someone express disbelief that you have to go through the motions to convince yourself again? :rolleyes:
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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Tim Craig wrote:
Someone told you.
Exactly, and if it had been anyone else but God I wouldn't have taken any notice.
Tim Craig wrote:
Yes, you want me to believe something silly and give up a lot to do so.
Exactly. He who loves his life will loose it. He who looses his life for me will gain eternal life. You can go on demanding proof from the God who made you until your time is up or you can accept the evidence of his character in the world he has made and the words he has given us. Give up your pride, repent of your sins and be saved. You choose, you live forever with the consequences either way.
Nothing is exactly what it seems but everything with seems can be unpicked.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Tim Craig wrote: Someone told you. Exactly, and if it had been anyone else but God I wouldn't have taken any notice.
Ah, so god spoke to you directly? Can you tell me what he looked like so that I can indentify him from all those other characters telling me they're god when I stumble across them?
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
You can go on demanding proof from the God who made you until your time is up or you can accept the evidence of his character in the world he has made and the words he has given us.
There is no evidence and the words were made up by men.
Matthew Faithfull wrote:
Give up your pride, repent of your sins and be saved.
Ah, yes. The crux of your objection to my signature. Pride, self confidence, reason, and happiness are an affront to your god because we have to be made sinful and guilty to accept his utter dominance of us. Crawl into your hole and be miserable until you receive your "salvation". :laugh:
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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I don't think Matthew Faithfull or Ilion can comprehend the difference between rational thought and blind faith.
Demon Possessed wrote:
I don't think Matthew Faithfull or Ilion can comprehend the difference between rational thought and blind faith.
Pretty obviously not. I think a couple of more posts and MF is going to pop. ;)
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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ROFLMAO!!! Do you at all read what you reply to? Check out the posts preceding this, please... :-) Later, Peter
Abonet wrote:
Do you at all read what you reply to? Check out the posts preceding this, please...
Obviously, you don't. Thank you for your interest. :doh:
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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Tim Craig wrote:
Are you christians always pointing to a book and saying it's the answer? You think you have a monopoly on the book business? :laugh:
What we have the monopoly on is reason :-D.
Ilíon wrote:
What we have the monopoly on is reason
You wouldn't know reason if it jumped up and bit you in the ass. You don't have reason, all you have is blind faith in fairy tales.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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Ilíon wrote:
What we have the monopoly on is reason
You wouldn't know reason if it jumped up and bit you in the ass. You don't have reason, all you have is blind faith in fairy tales.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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Mundo Cani wrote:
you believe he does not exist.
I have no belief that god exists. It's a subtle but important distinction. My lack of belief is rational in that there's no proof or anything that leads me to the conclusion that any god exists.
Mundo Cani wrote:
I don't need to prove it. It is a personal belief that I hold for myself. I have not asked you to accept it.
YOu certainly sound like you are. Or are you so unsure that when you hear someone express disbelief that you have to go through the motions to convince yourself again? :rolleyes:
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
Tim Craig wrote:
I have no belief that god exists
You haven't responded to a single one of my points in this entire thread. I know there is a difference between not having a belief that God exists and believing that God does not exist. And the difference is frankly not that subtle. My point (which you avoided) is that there are only three possible positions on the matter: 1. A belief that God exists 2. A belief that God does not exist 3. Uncertainty about whether he exists or not Now, unless you can offer up another position or explain how "not having a belief" is different than option number 3, then you yourself have taken one of these three positions. So my question to you is, which one is it? Clearly it's not number 1. So is it number 2 or number 3?
Tim Craig wrote:
Or are you so unsure that when you hear someone express disbelief that you have to go through the motions to convince yourself again?
Are you a simpleton? Where in this thread have I argued for or against Christianity or religion? All of my points have been about reason. If you cannot come up with a better effort to engage in this debate than you have thus far, I won't continue this debate with you. Do you even know what the debate is about?
Ian
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Mundo Cani wrote:
What is the starting point for reasoning?
The starting point for knowledge is reason and sensual perception. We use reason to integrate what our senses tell us into a coherent framework of what we know.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
Tim Craig wrote:
The starting point for knowledge is reason and sensual perception
But that wasn't my question. My question was, what is the starting point for reason? Doesn't reason depend on a basic axiom that cannon be proved?
Ian
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Tim Craig wrote:
The starting point for knowledge is reason and sensual perception
But that wasn't my question. My question was, what is the starting point for reason? Doesn't reason depend on a basic axiom that cannon be proved?
Ian
Mundo Cani wrote:
My question was, what is the starting point for reason? Doesn't reason depend on a basic axiom that cannon be proved?
Reason is sufficient because without reason, nothing else matters.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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Tim Craig wrote:
I have no belief that god exists
You haven't responded to a single one of my points in this entire thread. I know there is a difference between not having a belief that God exists and believing that God does not exist. And the difference is frankly not that subtle. My point (which you avoided) is that there are only three possible positions on the matter: 1. A belief that God exists 2. A belief that God does not exist 3. Uncertainty about whether he exists or not Now, unless you can offer up another position or explain how "not having a belief" is different than option number 3, then you yourself have taken one of these three positions. So my question to you is, which one is it? Clearly it's not number 1. So is it number 2 or number 3?
Tim Craig wrote:
Or are you so unsure that when you hear someone express disbelief that you have to go through the motions to convince yourself again?
Are you a simpleton? Where in this thread have I argued for or against Christianity or religion? All of my points have been about reason. If you cannot come up with a better effort to engage in this debate than you have thus far, I won't continue this debate with you. Do you even know what the debate is about?
Ian