Enquiry: Harvard and Ali G
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Mundo Cani wrote:
What is the starting point for reasoning?
The starting point for knowledge is reason and sensual perception. We use reason to integrate what our senses tell us into a coherent framework of what we know.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
Tim Craig wrote:
The starting point for knowledge is reason and sensual perception
But that wasn't my question. My question was, what is the starting point for reason? Doesn't reason depend on a basic axiom that cannon be proved?
Ian
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Tim Craig wrote:
The starting point for knowledge is reason and sensual perception
But that wasn't my question. My question was, what is the starting point for reason? Doesn't reason depend on a basic axiom that cannon be proved?
Ian
Mundo Cani wrote:
My question was, what is the starting point for reason? Doesn't reason depend on a basic axiom that cannon be proved?
Reason is sufficient because without reason, nothing else matters.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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Tim Craig wrote:
I have no belief that god exists
You haven't responded to a single one of my points in this entire thread. I know there is a difference between not having a belief that God exists and believing that God does not exist. And the difference is frankly not that subtle. My point (which you avoided) is that there are only three possible positions on the matter: 1. A belief that God exists 2. A belief that God does not exist 3. Uncertainty about whether he exists or not Now, unless you can offer up another position or explain how "not having a belief" is different than option number 3, then you yourself have taken one of these three positions. So my question to you is, which one is it? Clearly it's not number 1. So is it number 2 or number 3?
Tim Craig wrote:
Or are you so unsure that when you hear someone express disbelief that you have to go through the motions to convince yourself again?
Are you a simpleton? Where in this thread have I argued for or against Christianity or religion? All of my points have been about reason. If you cannot come up with a better effort to engage in this debate than you have thus far, I won't continue this debate with you. Do you even know what the debate is about?
Ian
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Mundo Cani wrote:
My question was, what is the starting point for reason? Doesn't reason depend on a basic axiom that cannon be proved?
Reason is sufficient because without reason, nothing else matters.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
Tim Craig wrote:
Reason is sufficient
I see. OK, why don't you demonstrate that. I challenge you to come up with a single well-reasoned statement that is not based on an axiom. The only "reasoning" that is self-sufficient is circular reasoning. And we all know how valuable that is.
Ian
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Mundo Cani wrote:
Are you a simpleton?
Ah, another one drops to personal attacks. Go play with your invisible playmate, asshole.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
The debate is over because I inquired as to whether you are a simpleton? I think if you peruse this thread, you'll find that you've taken a similar tone with others. I suspect that you are either unable to engage in rational debate (which would lead one to believe you are a simpleton) or you are unwilling (which would lead one to believe you are dishonest). I'm simply trying to get to the bottom of why you refuse to respond to simple questions. Is it because you are incapable? Or because you are unwilling? If you are incapable, there is little else we can talk about. But if you are unwilling, there's still an outside chance I could convince you to identify the axioms that you seem so intent on keeping secret.
Ian
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The debate is over because I inquired as to whether you are a simpleton? I think if you peruse this thread, you'll find that you've taken a similar tone with others. I suspect that you are either unable to engage in rational debate (which would lead one to believe you are a simpleton) or you are unwilling (which would lead one to believe you are dishonest). I'm simply trying to get to the bottom of why you refuse to respond to simple questions. Is it because you are incapable? Or because you are unwilling? If you are incapable, there is little else we can talk about. But if you are unwilling, there's still an outside chance I could convince you to identify the axioms that you seem so intent on keeping secret.
Ian
Mundo Cani wrote:
The debate is over because I inquired as to whether you are a simpleton? I think if you peruse this thread, you'll find that you've taken a similar tone with others.
No, if you've been following, I only pointed out name calling by others. I can't engage in rational debate with you because you are without reason. You simply cover your ears, chant lalalala until the other party throws up their hands in disgust with you and then you act like you've proved something. The only one lacking in capabilities here is you. I'd tell you to have a nice life but I know that's denied to you. Sure hope all that sacrifice pays off. I wouldn't bet on it.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
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Mundo Cani wrote:
The debate is over because I inquired as to whether you are a simpleton? I think if you peruse this thread, you'll find that you've taken a similar tone with others.
No, if you've been following, I only pointed out name calling by others. I can't engage in rational debate with you because you are without reason. You simply cover your ears, chant lalalala until the other party throws up their hands in disgust with you and then you act like you've proved something. The only one lacking in capabilities here is you. I'd tell you to have a nice life but I know that's denied to you. Sure hope all that sacrifice pays off. I wouldn't bet on it.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
Tim Craig wrote:
I can't engage in rational debate with you because you are without reason
Really? But you are the one who has refused to engage. I have asked simple questions that you are either unwilling or unable to address. Let's try this one last time. If you are so reasonable, and I am so unreasonable, then please, by all means, use your reasoning skills to show how the following statement is unreasonable. All reasoning is based on a set of axioms that cannot proved. This has been the crux of the debate and you have not yet touched on it. To refuse to engage in a simple debate while shouting that your opponent is unreasonable is stupid -- unless you can show by your own reasoning, why his reasoning is flawed.
Tim Craig wrote:
You simply cover your ears, chant lalalala until the other party throws up their hands in disgust with you and then you act like you've proved something.
The irony is so thick you could cut it with a cliche.
Ian
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Mundo Cani wrote:
The debate is over because I inquired as to whether you are a simpleton? I think if you peruse this thread, you'll find that you've taken a similar tone with others.
No, if you've been following, I only pointed out name calling by others. I can't engage in rational debate with you because you are without reason. You simply cover your ears, chant lalalala until the other party throws up their hands in disgust with you and then you act like you've proved something. The only one lacking in capabilities here is you. I'd tell you to have a nice life but I know that's denied to you. Sure hope all that sacrifice pays off. I wouldn't bet on it.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
Most all the christians I have talked to on here (with the exception of jason_lakewhitney) are like that. They will go in circles with their fallacies and ignore your arguments then insult and try to assert their superiority. Then they will declare victory when the other person finally gives up trying to debate.
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Most all the christians I have talked to on here (with the exception of jason_lakewhitney) are like that. They will go in circles with their fallacies and ignore your arguments then insult and try to assert their superiority. Then they will declare victory when the other person finally gives up trying to debate.
Demon Possessed wrote:
They will go in circles with their fallacies
Please, quote one of my fallacies.
Demon Possessed wrote:
and ignore your arguments
Please, give me one example of an argument I ignored in this thread.
Demon Possessed wrote:
They will go in circles with their fallacies and ignore your arguments then insult and try to assert their superiority, then declare victory when the other person finally gives up trying to debate.
I do believe you're describing yourself here.
Ian
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Most all the christians I have talked to on here (with the exception of jason_lakewhitney) are like that. They will go in circles with their fallacies and ignore your arguments then insult and try to assert their superiority. Then they will declare victory when the other person finally gives up trying to debate.
Demon Possessed wrote:
(with the exception of jason_lakewhitney)
Thanks for the complement. You and Tim are right. There are a lot of so called Christians here that just act stupid. And by their actions they make other Christians look bad. First of all a debate should never have any type of insults. Once again thanks and have a good day.
God Bless, Jason
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Mundo Cani wrote:
The debate is over because I inquired as to whether you are a simpleton? I think if you peruse this thread, you'll find that you've taken a similar tone with others.
No, if you've been following, I only pointed out name calling by others. I can't engage in rational debate with you because you are without reason. You simply cover your ears, chant lalalala until the other party throws up their hands in disgust with you and then you act like you've proved something. The only one lacking in capabilities here is you. I'd tell you to have a nice life but I know that's denied to you. Sure hope all that sacrifice pays off. I wouldn't bet on it.
To introduce faith christianity must destroy reason, to introduce salvation it must destroy happiness.
Mundo is missing the point here big time. You don't care one way or the other if God exists. His little multiple choice answers needed one more: 4. Irrelevant, does not apply or cares less Is that correct? Its hard to debate which is better apple pie or cherry pie, when you don't like pie. On a side note: I don't think to have faith in Christ you must destroy reason. Nor does salvation mean you should live a unhappy and pointless life. Disclaimer: Not trolling just dropping in my two cents.
God Bless, Jason
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Mundo is missing the point here big time. You don't care one way or the other if God exists. His little multiple choice answers needed one more: 4. Irrelevant, does not apply or cares less Is that correct? Its hard to debate which is better apple pie or cherry pie, when you don't like pie. On a side note: I don't think to have faith in Christ you must destroy reason. Nor does salvation mean you should live a unhappy and pointless life. Disclaimer: Not trolling just dropping in my two cents.
God Bless, Jason
jason_lakewhitney wrote:
Mundo is missing the point here big time.
What is the point that I am missing "big time"?
jason_lakewhitney wrote:
You don't care one way or the other if God exists.
Whether or not you care does not equate to a personal belief on the matter. "Not caring" is not a statement of belief so it cannot be added to the options I came up with for positions of belief regarding the existence of God. Though someone could claim they take no position at all (which is probably what you meant), having "no position" simply means you haven't given yourself to serious thought on the matter. Once you've actually thought about it, there remains only three options: belief, disbelief, and uncertainty. Now one may claim they don't care one way or the other, but that is a surface position. If they investigate it through introspection (which can only be done by an honest person) they will ultimately discover that they either believe, disbelieve, or are uncertain. So I think I disagree that "not caring one way or the other" is a real position for anyone who has given the matter any thought at all. However, you make an interesting point and I'll have to think about it some more. Now, for the sake of argument, let's say "I don't care" is a valid fourth option. Do you really believe that an adamant atheist like Tim holds no position on whether or not God exists? I think it's safe to say based on Tim's sig and his posts in this thread, that the idea of God is not irrelevant to him--it is appalling. And to claim he has no belief on the matter is either ignorant or dishonest. (Remember, this sub-thread started in response to Tim's claim that Theists are the ones with beliefs and that atheists don't have beliefs. This, of course, is nonsense. The topic of this conversation is reason--not God.)
Ian
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jason_lakewhitney wrote:
Mundo is missing the point here big time.
What is the point that I am missing "big time"?
jason_lakewhitney wrote:
You don't care one way or the other if God exists.
Whether or not you care does not equate to a personal belief on the matter. "Not caring" is not a statement of belief so it cannot be added to the options I came up with for positions of belief regarding the existence of God. Though someone could claim they take no position at all (which is probably what you meant), having "no position" simply means you haven't given yourself to serious thought on the matter. Once you've actually thought about it, there remains only three options: belief, disbelief, and uncertainty. Now one may claim they don't care one way or the other, but that is a surface position. If they investigate it through introspection (which can only be done by an honest person) they will ultimately discover that they either believe, disbelieve, or are uncertain. So I think I disagree that "not caring one way or the other" is a real position for anyone who has given the matter any thought at all. However, you make an interesting point and I'll have to think about it some more. Now, for the sake of argument, let's say "I don't care" is a valid fourth option. Do you really believe that an adamant atheist like Tim holds no position on whether or not God exists? I think it's safe to say based on Tim's sig and his posts in this thread, that the idea of God is not irrelevant to him--it is appalling. And to claim he has no belief on the matter is either ignorant or dishonest. (Remember, this sub-thread started in response to Tim's claim that Theists are the ones with beliefs and that atheists don't have beliefs. This, of course, is nonsense. The topic of this conversation is reason--not God.)
Ian
Mundo Cani wrote:
What point am I missing?
That there are people who do not care if God exists or does not exists. They would have the same attitude towards a god whether they have physically meet one or had only heard of one.
Mundo Cani wrote:
Whether or not you care has nothing to do with your personal belief on the matter.
There has been a lot of times that I have been thinking something, but I didn't type it the way I was thinking it. Did you type what you were thinking? It seems to me there is a need for more clear direction in your statement.
Mundo Cani wrote:
This could be said of someone who has never thought on the matter at all. However, based on Tim's sig, the idea of God is not irrelevant to him--it is appalling.
Tim doesn't care about God or any other gods. Tim doesn't find God appalling. He finds the thought of gods, religion and Christians that shoot of their mouths in so called debates with insults and remarks that are not 'Christian' like. They seem to make themselves out to be hypocrites and do more harm to Christianity than they do good. Don't try to win a debate, try to reach a stalemate.
God Bless, Jason
I am not perfect but I try to be better than those before me. So those who come after me will be better than I am. -
Mundo Cani wrote:
What point am I missing?
That there are people who do not care if God exists or does not exists. They would have the same attitude towards a god whether they have physically meet one or had only heard of one.
Mundo Cani wrote:
Whether or not you care has nothing to do with your personal belief on the matter.
There has been a lot of times that I have been thinking something, but I didn't type it the way I was thinking it. Did you type what you were thinking? It seems to me there is a need for more clear direction in your statement.
Mundo Cani wrote:
This could be said of someone who has never thought on the matter at all. However, based on Tim's sig, the idea of God is not irrelevant to him--it is appalling.
Tim doesn't care about God or any other gods. Tim doesn't find God appalling. He finds the thought of gods, religion and Christians that shoot of their mouths in so called debates with insults and remarks that are not 'Christian' like. They seem to make themselves out to be hypocrites and do more harm to Christianity than they do good. Don't try to win a debate, try to reach a stalemate.
God Bless, Jason
I am not perfect but I try to be better than those before me. So those who come after me will be better than I am.I was too hasty in my original response. I went back before you responded and modified my post. Reread it if you have time. :)
jason_lakewhitney wrote:
Tim doesn't care about God or any other gods. Tim doesn't find God appalling.
I did not say that Tim finds God appalling. I said he finds the idea of God appalling. Now, do you think it is reasonable for someone who finds the idea of God appalling to hold no position on the existence of God? Tim claimed he has no beliefs on the matter. I simply challenge his assertion. I think he does hold a position and that he is being either ignorant or dishonest. This discussion was never about God. It is about reason.
jason_lakewhitney wrote:
He finds the thought of gods, religion and Christians that shoot of their mouths in so called debates with insults and remarks that are not 'Christian' like. They seem to make themselves out to be hypocrites and do more harm to Christianity than they do good.
I have not made any claims about God or Christianity in this thread. I have neither indicated that I am a Christian or an Atheist. I have not made this thread about religion or belittled anyone for disagreeing with me. I did ask Tim if he is a simpleton because he continued to make up strawman arguments and attribute them to me. I posted very simple points that he was either unable or unwilling to respond to. I thought by asking the question, perhaps he would finally address my point so as to prove he was not a simpleton. I was trying to provoke him to answer the question.
Ian
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jason_lakewhitney wrote:
Mundo is missing the point here big time.
What is the point that I am missing "big time"?
jason_lakewhitney wrote:
You don't care one way or the other if God exists.
Whether or not you care does not equate to a personal belief on the matter. "Not caring" is not a statement of belief so it cannot be added to the options I came up with for positions of belief regarding the existence of God. Though someone could claim they take no position at all (which is probably what you meant), having "no position" simply means you haven't given yourself to serious thought on the matter. Once you've actually thought about it, there remains only three options: belief, disbelief, and uncertainty. Now one may claim they don't care one way or the other, but that is a surface position. If they investigate it through introspection (which can only be done by an honest person) they will ultimately discover that they either believe, disbelieve, or are uncertain. So I think I disagree that "not caring one way or the other" is a real position for anyone who has given the matter any thought at all. However, you make an interesting point and I'll have to think about it some more. Now, for the sake of argument, let's say "I don't care" is a valid fourth option. Do you really believe that an adamant atheist like Tim holds no position on whether or not God exists? I think it's safe to say based on Tim's sig and his posts in this thread, that the idea of God is not irrelevant to him--it is appalling. And to claim he has no belief on the matter is either ignorant or dishonest. (Remember, this sub-thread started in response to Tim's claim that Theists are the ones with beliefs and that atheists don't have beliefs. This, of course, is nonsense. The topic of this conversation is reason--not God.)
Ian
You should have left what you originally wrote and added to it. So that if someone is following they can have more understanding on where this thread has gone. You went from one sentence to four paragraphs, you really didn't type what you were thinking. There is one underlining problem.
Mundo Cani wrote:
The topic of this conversation is reason--not God.
But your first response of this sub-thread to Tim was:
Mundo Cani wrote:
Really? Do you believe God does not exist?
If it were about reason maybe you should have said something like: "Really? What reasons do you have to not believe in God?" You trolled. Your reply will not be answered.
God Bless, Jason
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You should have left what you originally wrote and added to it. So that if someone is following they can have more understanding on where this thread has gone. You went from one sentence to four paragraphs, you really didn't type what you were thinking. There is one underlining problem.
Mundo Cani wrote:
The topic of this conversation is reason--not God.
But your first response of this sub-thread to Tim was:
Mundo Cani wrote:
Really? Do you believe God does not exist?
If it were about reason maybe you should have said something like: "Really? What reasons do you have to not believe in God?" You trolled. Your reply will not be answered.
God Bless, Jason
jason_lakewhitney wrote:
You went from one sentence to four paragraphs, you really didn't type what you were thinking. There is one underlining problem.
I did type what I was thinking. Then I thought about it some more and decided to elaborate.
jason_lakewhitney wrote:
Mundo Cani wrote: The topic of this conversation is reason--not God. But your first response of this sub-thread to Tim was: Mundo Cani wrote: Really? Do you believe God does not exist?
Consider the context, Jason. He made a wild claim that atheists don't hold beliefs. So I asked him point blank what his belief on the existence of God is. Whether or not he believes in God is not the point of the question. The point of the question was to get him to admit that he had a belief. If this debate was about God, I would have offered reasons why I think God exists, or why I think he does not exist. I am not trying to convince anyone one way or the other.
jason_lakewhitney wrote:
You trolled.
You can't be serious! Tim claimed atheists have no beliefs. I challenged his claim. How is that trolling? You came into this thread with your mind made up about who I am and what my motives were. If you were to go back and re-read my posts n this thread, I think you would find that you are mistaken.
jason_lakewhitney wrote:
Your reply will not be answered.
If you wanted to end the conversation, you could have simply not responded. Instead, you make a point to make sure I know that I will be ignored. Curious.
Ian
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I was too hasty in my original response. I went back before you responded and modified my post. Reread it if you have time. :)
jason_lakewhitney wrote:
Tim doesn't care about God or any other gods. Tim doesn't find God appalling.
I did not say that Tim finds God appalling. I said he finds the idea of God appalling. Now, do you think it is reasonable for someone who finds the idea of God appalling to hold no position on the existence of God? Tim claimed he has no beliefs on the matter. I simply challenge his assertion. I think he does hold a position and that he is being either ignorant or dishonest. This discussion was never about God. It is about reason.
jason_lakewhitney wrote:
He finds the thought of gods, religion and Christians that shoot of their mouths in so called debates with insults and remarks that are not 'Christian' like. They seem to make themselves out to be hypocrites and do more harm to Christianity than they do good.
I have not made any claims about God or Christianity in this thread. I have neither indicated that I am a Christian or an Atheist. I have not made this thread about religion or belittled anyone for disagreeing with me. I did ask Tim if he is a simpleton because he continued to make up strawman arguments and attribute them to me. I posted very simple points that he was either unable or unwilling to respond to. I thought by asking the question, perhaps he would finally address my point so as to prove he was not a simpleton. I was trying to provoke him to answer the question.
Ian
Mundo Cani wrote:
Now, do you think it is reasonable for someone who finds the idea of God appalling to hold no position on the existence of God?
Let me put this in a funny way. I find the idea of my ex-wife appalling and I do not care one way or the other about her.
Mundo Cani wrote:
I have neither indicated that I am a Christian or an Atheist.
I never said you were one or the other, nor did I imply it. I was talking about a certain type of person( or mentality). If that offended you I am sorry. For the record, I am a Christian and I freely and openly make that statement. I am done talking on this subject. Yes, I will ignore any replies.
God Bless, Jason
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Mundo Cani wrote:
Now, do you think it is reasonable for someone who finds the idea of God appalling to hold no position on the existence of God?
Let me put this in a funny way. I find the idea of my ex-wife appalling and I do not care one way or the other about her.
Mundo Cani wrote:
I have neither indicated that I am a Christian or an Atheist.
I never said you were one or the other, nor did I imply it. I was talking about a certain type of person( or mentality). If that offended you I am sorry. For the record, I am a Christian and I freely and openly make that statement. I am done talking on this subject. Yes, I will ignore any replies.
God Bless, Jason
By all means, feel free to ignore this.
jason_lakewhitney wrote:
Mundo Cani wrote: Now, do you think it is reasonable for someone who finds the idea of God appalling to hold no position on the existence of God? Let me put this in a funny way. I find the idea of my ex-wife appalling and I do not care one way or the other about her.
I realize you are making a joke, but did you also intend it to address my question? I would assert again, that anyone who finds the idea of God appalling, holds a belief (one way or the other) on the matter. Your humorous response is not a good metaphor for addressing my point. Not caring about God is not the same as not caring about whether or not he exists.
Ian
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Demon Possessed wrote:
(with the exception of jason_lakewhitney)
Thanks for the complement. You and Tim are right. There are a lot of so called Christians here that just act stupid. And by their actions they make other Christians look bad. First of all a debate should never have any type of insults. Once again thanks and have a good day.
God Bless, Jason
Red Stateler was the worst of all of them. For some reason he disappeared shortly after I found out and posted his personal contact info. :laugh:
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Red Stateler was the worst of all of them. For some reason he disappeared shortly after I found out and posted his personal contact info. :laugh:
Demon Possessed wrote:
posted his personal contact info
Well, that not cool. But out of curiosity, did he live in the big house and have the life he said he did. He was always talking about his gated community.
God Bless, Jason