The US as a banana republic
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Fire bombing Dresden and Tokyo, Nukeing Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Those were not the acts of 'nice guys', they were the actions of fanatics determined to defend themselves at all costs - as they had every right to do, then and now.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Fire bombing Dresden and Tokyo, Nukeing Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
As horrific as those acts of war may have been, they were within the realm of warfare. But we did not, as you but it, "meet the enemy on their own terms" and go far beyond their brutality. The USA did inter Japanese-Americans but we did not put them in gas chambers. Claiming that we exceeded the brutality of the Axis Powers in World War II while restricting the discussion to the battlefield is disingenuous. Ignoring Hitler's death camps and Japanese treatment of Allied POWs in a discussion of brutality during World War II is the intellectual equivalent of the old saw "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?"
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Fire bombing Dresden and Tokyo, Nukeing Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
As horrific as those acts of war may have been, they were within the realm of warfare. But we did not, as you but it, "meet the enemy on their own terms" and go far beyond their brutality. The USA did inter Japanese-Americans but we did not put them in gas chambers. Claiming that we exceeded the brutality of the Axis Powers in World War II while restricting the discussion to the battlefield is disingenuous. Ignoring Hitler's death camps and Japanese treatment of Allied POWs in a discussion of brutality during World War II is the intellectual equivalent of the old saw "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?"
Tony Wesley wrote:
Ignoring Hitler's death camps and Japanese treatment of Allied POWs in a discussion of brutality during World War II is the intellectual equivalent of the old saw "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?"
yes, and ignoring the brutality of people we are "torturing" today falls into precisely the same category. Bombing Hiroshima, as bad as it was, did not make us as bad as the Japanese, and pouring water into some muslims nose, as bad as it might be, does not make us as bad as Osama bin Ladin. Useing brutal and otherwise evil means of defending ourselves does not reduce us to the level of our enemies, than or now. We have every right to do anything and everything it takes to defeat them, regardless of who is offended by it.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
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oilFactotum wrote:
You haven't made a point. I find it both tiresome and disgusting your attempt to make the strategic bombing of Germany morally equivilent to the gassing of 6 million Jews. Perhaps if you bothered to read a little history instead of getting all your insight by slavish devotion the the decider, you might have learned that while the Brits bombed Germany at night, we chose to bomb during the day for greater accuracy and fewer civilian casualties even though our bomber losses increased.
We didn't do that in Japan. We used higher altitude less accurate bombing with incendearies on Tokyo so that our loses would be less. We met evil with evil. Just as we did in WWI, just as we did in the Indian wars, just as we did in the Civil War, just as we did in the Mexican war, the war of 1812 and the Revolution. Law or no law, necessary or not, killing is evil. The truly disgusting thing is that you can so easily dismiss dropping nuclear bombs on women and children for reasons that ultimately were created by the implemnetation of your own political principles by FDR, but you get all squimish when a far more competent president pours a little water in the nose of a single individual who helped plan the murder of thousands of your countrymen? Dude, serioiusly, you badly need to buy a new moral compass. That one you bought from Karl Marx is pointing in all the wrong directions.
oilFactotum wrote:
That is not a fundamental threat to our nation. Who are you talking about anyway? The potential victims of terrorist bomb?
You do not consider the mass murder of thousands of your countrymen to be a fundamental threat? There goes that damned moral compass again.
oilFactotum wrote:
That is exactly what you are asking for.
No, I'm asking the government to perform its most basic constitutional responsibilities to defend its citizens from murder by foreign agents.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
Stan Shannon wrote:
We didn't do that in Japan.
Wow, we weren't perfect. Who'da thunk it! It all makes sense now. We can't be perfect, so lets not even try. Let's become the Jihadists, embrace their evil and throw away what this country stands for. Of course throughout this argument you have completely ignored the fact that the technology of the time prevented anything like the kind of pinpoint bombing that exists today. But never mind all that - killing is evil and that justifies all evil acts.
Stan Shannon wrote:
We met evil with evil.
False. Your irrational desire to torture has lead you to argue that the strategic bombing of Germany and Japan is morally equivelent to the extirmination of 6 million Jews and that is truly disturbing. It simply won't fly.
Stan Shannon wrote:
killing is evil.
That's really the core of your arguement, isn't it? Killing is evil and once that line is crossed any evil can be excused. Death camps, torture, summary executions, suicide bombers, anything. It all comes down to hate, doesn't it? You hate the terrorists and you want to hurt them. You like torture, not because of any intelligence that might be gained, you like torture as an end in itself. You want the terrorists (and anyone who might happen to be in the way - which would probably be most of your victims) to be tortured and suffer. You have truly embraced the world of the Jihadist. I hope you are happy there, clearly the freedoms that this country represents disgust you.
Stan Shannon wrote:
that ultimately were created by the implemnetation of your own political principles by FDR
Stan Shannon fantasy time. I can't even begin to guess what you are talking about.
Stan Shannon wrote:
You do not consider the mass murder of thousands of your countrymen to be a fundamental threat?
Thousands died at the WTC. Did the country collapse? No.
Stan Shannon wrote:
There goes that damned moral compass again.
Moral compass? What a joke! You have no moral compass, you are in bed with the terrorists. If people like you get their way, this country will truly see a fundamental threat to our way of life.
Stan Shannon wrote:
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Yes they make it a point to always remember, but more in the context of 'this is what happens when we do horrible things to other people'. And they still recognize that it was probably the only thing that would have ended the war.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
BoneSoft wrote:
Yes they make it a point to always remember, but more in the context of 'this is what happens when we do horrible things to other people'.
Really? So you have your finger on the pulse of what every Japanese person feels about the nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? [I can't find any evidence of this, but I would imagine it would be impossible for us to say what the Japanese think about two of their cities being destroyed by bombs. We can only say that they mourn.
BoneSoft wrote:
And they still recognize that it was probably the only thing that would have ended the war.
Source?
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IamChrisMcCall wrote:
The nation of Japan has been in a state of cultural mourning for the victims of the attack ever since it happened.
Big fucking deal, it turned them into a nation of peace loving folk. And, just an fyi, there's still families that mourn for the losses at Pearl Harbor.
Mike The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Big fucking deal
Stay classy, Mike Gaskey. It was the only use of atomic weapons in war in the history of the world. It was a very, very big deal. Pearl Harbor was also a tragedy, but few civilians were killed during the attack on a military base in Hawaii.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
I sure as hell have no respect for any constitution someone like you would defend.
That would be the US Constitution. Thanks for clearing that up.
ZING
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Being all talk and no walk is typically considered a lack of manliness. Go ahead and impeach them for defending the nation, I have nothing to lose from that. If they are guilty they should be impeached, if they are not it will destroy the democrat party. Either way, I win.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Being all talk and no walk is typically considered a lack of manliness.
It's not brave to electroshock someone's balls in a prison cell. It's gay. Like, really gay. And to take pictures of them stacked up naked? That's pretty gay, too. You know what else is gay? Being gay. And then cheating on your wife with a stranger in an airport bathroom. Keep calling us sissies, though.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Go ahead and impeach them for defending the nation, I have nothing to lose from that.
Then why not impeach him yourself? Why make us do it? Why are you all talk and no walk, Stan? Don't worry, we'll get your little buddy out of office for you while you watch TV and get fat.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Being all talk and no walk is typically considered a lack of manliness.
It's not brave to electroshock someone's balls in a prison cell. It's gay. Like, really gay. And to take pictures of them stacked up naked? That's pretty gay, too. You know what else is gay? Being gay. And then cheating on your wife with a stranger in an airport bathroom. Keep calling us sissies, though.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Go ahead and impeach them for defending the nation, I have nothing to lose from that.
Then why not impeach him yourself? Why make us do it? Why are you all talk and no walk, Stan? Don't worry, we'll get your little buddy out of office for you while you watch TV and get fat.
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
It's not brave to electroshock someone's balls in a prison cell. It's gay. Like, really gay. And to take pictures of them stacked up naked? That's pretty gay, too. You know what else is gay? Being gay. And then cheating on your wife with a stranger in an airport bathroom. Keep calling us sissies, though.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
Then why not impeach him yourself? Why make us do it? Why are you all talk and no walk, Stan? Don't worry, we'll get your little buddy out of office for you while you watch TV and get fat.
Because I don't believe he has done anything to be impeached for. You guys are the ones who seem to have some kind of evidence that I have not seen. If you have proof he has broken the law, impeach away. Makes me no difference.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
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BoneSoft wrote:
Yes they make it a point to always remember, but more in the context of 'this is what happens when we do horrible things to other people'.
Really? So you have your finger on the pulse of what every Japanese person feels about the nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? [I can't find any evidence of this, but I would imagine it would be impossible for us to say what the Japanese think about two of their cities being destroyed by bombs. We can only say that they mourn.
BoneSoft wrote:
And they still recognize that it was probably the only thing that would have ended the war.
Source?
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
Really?
Virtually everybody I talked to. And how it's portrayed in the media, which is usually a decent gauge of social perception.
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
Source?
Ooku no nihonjin.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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BoneSoft wrote:
Ask virtually any Japanese about that and they'll tell you that it was justified and it almost certainly saved lives.
You've got to be kidding me. Saved lives, maybe, but we dropped those bombs on civilian targets. The nation of Japan has been in a state of cultural mourning for the victims of the attack ever since it happened.
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
nation of Japan has been in a state of cultural mourning for the victims of the attack ever since it happened
As are the Chinese in Manchuria and Nanjing, and many many other places in south east Asia over what the Japanese did to their civilians. All through the 30's the Japanese Imperial Army committed atrocities that were almost on par with Hitler's Germany. As sad as it is, civilians will always be hurt in war. How about all the civilians killed by their own governments during WWII, thanks to leaders like Stalin and Mussolini? Or due to inept leaders like Mao Zedong, which wasn't even war related?
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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IamChrisMcCall wrote:
It's not brave to electroshock someone's balls in a prison cell. It's gay. Like, really gay. And to take pictures of them stacked up naked? That's pretty gay, too. You know what else is gay? Being gay. And then cheating on your wife with a stranger in an airport bathroom. Keep calling us sissies, though.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
Then why not impeach him yourself? Why make us do it? Why are you all talk and no walk, Stan? Don't worry, we'll get your little buddy out of office for you while you watch TV and get fat.
Because I don't believe he has done anything to be impeached for. You guys are the ones who seem to have some kind of evidence that I have not seen. If you have proof he has broken the law, impeach away. Makes me no difference.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all.
Stan Shannon wrote:
I have no idea what you are talking about.
None of those incidents ring a bell with you? Shocking guys' balls and stacking them up into naked man-pyramids? You don't remember your beloved conservative administration supporting and condoning these acts? You don't remember your conservative senator Craig trying to get a blowjob from a man in an airport bathroom? Conservatives are faggots dressed up in camouflage to try to hide it. Be gay and proud, Stan, don't deny it like the rest of your party cohorts.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Because I don't believe he has done anything to be impeached for.
Then why does it make no difference to you? Shouldn't you be upset about the attempted impeachment of a President that's done nothing wrong? Or are you just pretending it's no big deal so that when he is eventually shamed you will have been unimpressed from the start? It's bizarre. No one cares. The guy is going to ruin your party's credibility and power and you're standing by watching it happen, pretending not to care. You are the only person that doesn't realize how silly you look.
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Yep, after reading that again, as written you are saying that torture is the only way to extract information. And if that were true I'd say torture the crap out of them. But if that were true, anybody that hands you a form to fill out or asks you what time it is is torturing you. I suspect that wasn't your intent, but what you write is all I've got to go on, and you definitely see things from a different perspective than I do so I don't dare guess at your meaning.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
BoneSoft wrote:
I suspect that wasn't your intent, but what you write is all I've got to go on, and you definitely see things from a different perspective than I do so I don't dare guess at your meaning.
Shrill double-reply gets voted a 1, both times. Nice work there, guy. BTW, it wasn't me that voted you down, you are just that bad. :laugh:
BoneSoft wrote:
And if that were true I'd say torture the crap out of them.
So why are you arguing that waterboarding is not torture if you are pro-torture? Do you ever get confused just thinking thoughts?
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Aww, some little jackass is voting all my posts a 1. Gee, I wonder who that could be... :~
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
Not me, you are just not a very good poster :(
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BoneSoft wrote:
I suspect that wasn't your intent, but what you write is all I've got to go on, and you definitely see things from a different perspective than I do so I don't dare guess at your meaning.
Shrill double-reply gets voted a 1, both times. Nice work there, guy. BTW, it wasn't me that voted you down, you are just that bad. :laugh:
BoneSoft wrote:
And if that were true I'd say torture the crap out of them.
So why are you arguing that waterboarding is not torture if you are pro-torture? Do you ever get confused just thinking thoughts?
Shrill huh, you really do have some delicate sensibilities.
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
So why are you arguing that waterboarding is not torture
I wasn't arguing that, I was arguing the contrary.
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
if you are pro-torture
Never said I was.
IamChrisMcCall wrote:
Do you ever get confused just thinking thoughts?
Apparently not nearly as much as you do reading other's thoughts.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.