Gay scientists isolate 'Christian Gene'
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Are you quiet certain that sexual orientation is a choice? I'm heterosexual, but I don't recall ever making that choice. At some point, I started to become very aware of women. They became tantalizing to me. I cannot fathom that you or I make choices about what we find attractive. Now, being gay isn't a lifestyle at all. Being heterosexual isn't a lifestyle. Marriage is a lifestyle. celibacy is a lifestyle. Keeping lovers is a lifestyle. Being gay is not tantamount to having a gay lifestyle. How you choose to live your life, according to or in spite of your tendencies is your lifestyle. I think the manner in which the Church has viewed and treated homosexuals is a disgrace. Why must it be a choice? I think I know the answer. We're afraid of the implication if it's not. If it's a choice, then it's their own fault. If it's not a choice, it must be God's fault! Let's examine this implication from the perspective of Christian doctrine. God created you. You are a sinner. And, according to sound Christian doctrine, this was not a choice of yours. You were born into it! Born into a state of sinfulness due to the original sin and subsequent fall of mankind. So here I find myself, as Paul did, doing what I don't want to do, and not doing the things I want to do! There is a conflict in my person. I want to keep things for myself, but I know I should give to others. I behave selfishly when I know I should be kind. I tell a lie when I know I should tell the truth. I desire men, when I know I shouldn't... Hold the phone! WE DRAW THE LINE AT SEXUAL ORIENTATION! Yes, you didn't choose to struggle with pride, honesty, selfishness, or lusting after those of the same gender, but homosexuality? By golly, that's your own choice you pervert! So we have a real problem with the idea that God created someone, and that someone is predisposed to being attracted to the same sex. But can the pot say to the potter, why did you make me this way? You are not good because you are not gay. Someone else is not bad because they are gay. According to the bible, no one is good - not one. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. It is only by God's grace and mercy that I am able to obey and love him at all. That is Christianity; God, by his grace, sending Jesus to die in our place for all our sins, and we the saved, seeking to lovingly obey and seek him with no strings attached. As Paul said, What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be
I agree, I think you are correct. The difference though, is that we almost all agree that lying and coveting are bad, and that we should actively try to not do them. But gay people don't want to believe that their desire for the same sex is a bad thing, and certainly don't want to try to suppress it. Another difference is that we all lie and covet, but we don't all lust after the same sex. I have heard some religious figures that accept that it's a quality that people are born with, and hence suggest that they try to not be gay, which is usually viewed just as negatively as claiming that it's a lifestyle. Homos don't want to be viewed as having a disease or affliction. But I think we all have our demons to bear, and that it's not our place to tell other people what they are doing wrong unless it's affecting other people.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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Are you quiet certain that sexual orientation is a choice? I'm heterosexual, but I don't recall ever making that choice. At some point, I started to become very aware of women. They became tantalizing to me. I cannot fathom that you or I make choices about what we find attractive. Now, being gay isn't a lifestyle at all. Being heterosexual isn't a lifestyle. Marriage is a lifestyle. celibacy is a lifestyle. Keeping lovers is a lifestyle. Being gay is not tantamount to having a gay lifestyle. How you choose to live your life, according to or in spite of your tendencies is your lifestyle. I think the manner in which the Church has viewed and treated homosexuals is a disgrace. Why must it be a choice? I think I know the answer. We're afraid of the implication if it's not. If it's a choice, then it's their own fault. If it's not a choice, it must be God's fault! Let's examine this implication from the perspective of Christian doctrine. God created you. You are a sinner. And, according to sound Christian doctrine, this was not a choice of yours. You were born into it! Born into a state of sinfulness due to the original sin and subsequent fall of mankind. So here I find myself, as Paul did, doing what I don't want to do, and not doing the things I want to do! There is a conflict in my person. I want to keep things for myself, but I know I should give to others. I behave selfishly when I know I should be kind. I tell a lie when I know I should tell the truth. I desire men, when I know I shouldn't... Hold the phone! WE DRAW THE LINE AT SEXUAL ORIENTATION! Yes, you didn't choose to struggle with pride, honesty, selfishness, or lusting after those of the same gender, but homosexuality? By golly, that's your own choice you pervert! So we have a real problem with the idea that God created someone, and that someone is predisposed to being attracted to the same sex. But can the pot say to the potter, why did you make me this way? You are not good because you are not gay. Someone else is not bad because they are gay. According to the bible, no one is good - not one. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. It is only by God's grace and mercy that I am able to obey and love him at all. That is Christianity; God, by his grace, sending Jesus to die in our place for all our sins, and we the saved, seeking to lovingly obey and seek him with no strings attached. As Paul said, What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be
Excellent post, thanks for that.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Relative Moralism and Pseudo-tolerance Rhetoric The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Are you quiet certain that sexual orientation is a choice? I'm heterosexual, but I don't recall ever making that choice. At some point, I started to become very aware of women. They became tantalizing to me. I cannot fathom that you or I make choices about what we find attractive. Now, being gay isn't a lifestyle at all. Being heterosexual isn't a lifestyle. Marriage is a lifestyle. celibacy is a lifestyle. Keeping lovers is a lifestyle. Being gay is not tantamount to having a gay lifestyle. How you choose to live your life, according to or in spite of your tendencies is your lifestyle. I think the manner in which the Church has viewed and treated homosexuals is a disgrace. Why must it be a choice? I think I know the answer. We're afraid of the implication if it's not. If it's a choice, then it's their own fault. If it's not a choice, it must be God's fault! Let's examine this implication from the perspective of Christian doctrine. God created you. You are a sinner. And, according to sound Christian doctrine, this was not a choice of yours. You were born into it! Born into a state of sinfulness due to the original sin and subsequent fall of mankind. So here I find myself, as Paul did, doing what I don't want to do, and not doing the things I want to do! There is a conflict in my person. I want to keep things for myself, but I know I should give to others. I behave selfishly when I know I should be kind. I tell a lie when I know I should tell the truth. I desire men, when I know I shouldn't... Hold the phone! WE DRAW THE LINE AT SEXUAL ORIENTATION! Yes, you didn't choose to struggle with pride, honesty, selfishness, or lusting after those of the same gender, but homosexuality? By golly, that's your own choice you pervert! So we have a real problem with the idea that God created someone, and that someone is predisposed to being attracted to the same sex. But can the pot say to the potter, why did you make me this way? You are not good because you are not gay. Someone else is not bad because they are gay. According to the bible, no one is good - not one. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. It is only by God's grace and mercy that I am able to obey and love him at all. That is Christianity; God, by his grace, sending Jesus to die in our place for all our sins, and we the saved, seeking to lovingly obey and seek him with no strings attached. As Paul said, What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be
On the other hand, what if being homo-phobic also is not a life style choice. My first innate reaction upon being made aware of the existence of homosexuality was instant revulsion. Does that mean I am genetically predisposed to be that way? If so, is the way I was born as acceptable in a secular world as homosexuality is in a chritian one? Or, do I need treatment?
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all. Freedom is not something you express with your genitals, it is something you express with your mind.
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Ilíon wrote:
For some odd reason, I'm no longer getting notifications ... which could be a (partial) blessing, if my in-box is no longer flooded with notifications of the run-of-the-mill "Yer a moroon" responses in which you kiddies seem to specialize.
OK, good, it wasn't just me, although it seems to have come back now.
Ilíon wrote:
You haven't yet *argued* anything, so this merely comes across as just more of your typical bloviation. Perhaps you confuse 'argumentativeness' for 'argumentation?'
What the hell is 'bloviation'? As a matter of fact, I HAVE argued things, over and over again, and it is you that hasn't. You know, just because I happen to disagree with you and think you're a pretentious bighead, doesn't mean I'm simply irrationally predisposed to argue with you.
Ilíon wrote:
I'm also trying to correct some fundamental misconceptions about actual science: starting with the misunderstanding that science is even about truth.
Um, no you're not. You're simply stating that science isn't about truth. That isn't correcting it at all. Tell us why.
Ilíon wrote:
"What do you worship instead?" Christ, of course.
See, science is about formulating conclusions based on evidence. You seem to be implying that you have no evidence for Christ.
"We were backstage, playing Monopoly. Totally forgot there was a show, so sorry we are late." - Maynard James Keenan
Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
You're simply stating that science isn't about truth.
I won't speak for him, but really, it isn't. Freedom from concerns about truth is precisely why science is such a powerful tool. Science is merely a very formal way of asking question and measuring observable phenomenon. In 500 years of trying science has provided far more question than it has truths. And thats a good thing. If science ever discovers truth, we will no longer need it.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all. Freedom is not something you express with your genitals, it is something you express with your mind.
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Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
You're simply stating that science isn't about truth.
I won't speak for him, but really, it isn't. Freedom from concerns about truth is precisely why science is such a powerful tool. Science is merely a very formal way of asking question and measuring observable phenomenon. In 500 years of trying science has provided far more question than it has truths. And thats a good thing. If science ever discovers truth, we will no longer need it.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all. Freedom is not something you express with your genitals, it is something you express with your mind.
Exactly. I honestly have no idea why he keeps blathering about science not being about truth, when he's the only one that's tried to point out a correlation between the two.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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On the other hand, what if being homo-phobic also is not a life style choice. My first innate reaction upon being made aware of the existence of homosexuality was instant revulsion. Does that mean I am genetically predisposed to be that way? If so, is the way I was born as acceptable in a secular world as homosexuality is in a chritian one? Or, do I need treatment?
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all. Freedom is not something you express with your genitals, it is something you express with your mind.
Stan Shannon wrote:
On the other hand, what if being homo-phobic also is not a life style choice.
Homophobia is not a lifestyle. How you live in accordance with, or in spite of your tendencies (both innate and learned) is your lifestyle.
Stan Shannon wrote:
My first innate reaction upon being made aware of the existence of homosexuality was instant revulsion. Does that mean I am genetically predisposed to be that way?
Some tendencies are from nature, some are from nurture, some are from a combination of the two. I cannot tell you why you are repulsed by homosexuality. Regardless of the reason, our feelings about homosexuality don't provide excuses for how we treat homosexuals. Do you pity people who act out racism? Or do you hold them solely accountable for their actions? Christians are called to love others. Jesus did not condone adultery when he looked with love on the woman and asked her, "where are your accusers?"
Stan Shannon wrote:
If so, is the way I was born as acceptable in a secular world as homosexuality is in a Christian one?
I don't think homosexuality is accepted by Christianity. Yes, there are pockets of Christians and some denominations that claim that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, but their doctrines on the matter fly in the face of scripture. On the whole, homosexuals tend to be ostracized by Christians. But I think you're reading into my post something that I did not intend. I in now way meant to imply that if you're born with a tendency, then acting according to that tendency is OK. Predisposition is not an excuse for behavior, rather a partial explanation. I was a liar in my youth. I preferred telling lies to owning up to my mistakes. I was one of six children, and two of us had this predisposition to falsehood. That didn't make lying OK for me, it just made it more difficult for me to tell the truth. It became a personal struggle that 4 of my siblings didn't have to deal with.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Or, do I need treatment?
If you are a Christian, then you already know the answer to this question. If we are called to love others, and this is difficult for us, then we need God's help, do we not? It starts with us realizing that we have trespassed on the law to the same extent that homosexuals those who enterta
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Exactly. I honestly have no idea why he keeps blathering about science not being about truth, when he's the only one that's tried to point out a correlation between the two.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
I was actually thinking about that today while reading this[^] Many will tend to consider that this repersents a weakness in science, that we were taught something incorrect about whales previously and now science has given us a revised 'truth', that it was 'wrong' about before. They utterly fail to comprehend that this is science's greatest strength - new data, new explanation. Our understanding of truth improved, but we still dont have it. This new truth will in all likelyhood change again. That is why so many find sciece to be such a poor way of arriving at an understanding of our universe. It keeps changing.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all. Freedom is not something you express with your genitals, it is something you express with your mind.
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On the other hand, what if being homo-phobic also is not a life style choice. My first innate reaction upon being made aware of the existence of homosexuality was instant revulsion. Does that mean I am genetically predisposed to be that way? If so, is the way I was born as acceptable in a secular world as homosexuality is in a chritian one? Or, do I need treatment?
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all. Freedom is not something you express with your genitals, it is something you express with your mind.
Anyone is perfectly free to feel entirely how you want about the whole thing, or any other thing , most people couldn't give a shit. Its acting on those feelings in a manner that is going to cause harm to someone else that I have issues with. In the same way I quite frankly find myself appalled and disgusted at the actions of fundamentalists or terrorists (or whatever you want to call the pricks) and accept something has to happen to stop them causing harm. However, I couldn't care less if those same people stayed at home whining and bitching about living in a third world country and how its all 'the Wests' fault and left it at that because as much as they would go on, I wouldn't have to listen.
Rhys "The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it" They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance." Terry Pratchett
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Rob Graham wrote:
I'd be more interested in a cure for Islam.
Yes, but that would make Muslims more angry so we can't do that. Making Christians angry isn't a problem. Secular Humanists are not exactly into that whole "courage" thing.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all. Freedom is not something you express with your genitals, it is something you express with your mind.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Yes, but that would make Muslims more angry so we can't do that. Making Christians angry isn't a problem. Secular Humanists are not exactly into that whole "courage" thing.
Really. I seem to recall that Hirsi Ali is an atheist. I think she has a fair bit of courage.
John Carson
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Rob Manderson wrote:
I certainly hope so!
You anti-Christians, as a general rule, are going extinct. Haven't you been paying attention? The future belongs to either: 1) Christianity (which is modern and future-oriented); or, 2) Islam (which is benighted and backward and likes it that way). But you anti-Christians? Pshaw! You haven't a prayer.
Ilíon wrote:
But you anti-Christians? Pshaw! You haven't a prayer.
And we wouldn't need one anyway. A friend of mine recently went into hospital for heart surgery. During the surgery there was a minor complication, but left unchecked could have had fatal consequences. Another of her friends is a Christian. He told her that she pulled through because he was praying for her the whole time. She had to explain to him that she pulled through becuase she had an extremely skilled cardiologist, and if left to the power of prayer alone she would have died.
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Developer Day Scotland My website | blog
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Yes, but that would make Muslims more angry so we can't do that. Making Christians angry isn't a problem. Secular Humanists are not exactly into that whole "courage" thing.
Really. I seem to recall that Hirsi Ali is an atheist. I think she has a fair bit of courage.
John Carson
Well, yeah, but than she's not taking on Christians and pretending shes waging some kind of campaign against evil like the rest of you guys do - she's taking on Islam, the real McCoy. Thats completely different. If you guys were doing that, I'd be right behind you all the way (although at a good distance).
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all. Freedom is not something you express with your genitals, it is something you express with your mind.
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Ilíon wrote:
But you anti-Christians? Pshaw! You haven't a prayer.
And we wouldn't need one anyway. A friend of mine recently went into hospital for heart surgery. During the surgery there was a minor complication, but left unchecked could have had fatal consequences. Another of her friends is a Christian. He told her that she pulled through because he was praying for her the whole time. She had to explain to him that she pulled through becuase she had an extremely skilled cardiologist, and if left to the power of prayer alone she would have died.
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Developer Day Scotland My website | blog
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
[nothing, really]
You're not paying attention, Mr Mackay: either to what I said, or to the wider currents in historical reality to which I referred. Allow me to put it to you simply: "The future belongs to those who show up -- and anti-Christians, in general, are not showing up." You people are becoming so shrill of late because present reality is showing to be false the 200-year-old secularist prophesies that "religion" is going to die out. That, and the fact that the general populace are realizing that you "rationalists" are every bit as religious -- indeed, you people are akin to fideists -- as the most "fundie" of fundamentalists.
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After years of research, scientists have identified a Christian Gene refuting claims that it is in fact a lifestyle choice. Many Christians now need counsellilng as a result... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCzbNkyXO50[^] (Oh, by the way, in order to avert the obvious quip, I regularly Google 'Gay Christian Scientists' so there. ;P )
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
When are they going to find the genes that make us human? We should all be blades of grass, there was obviously some kind of mistake in evolution.
Word, write letters and sh*t yo. It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird. Friendship is like peeing on yourself: everyone can see it, but only you get the warm feeling that it brings. The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do. Everyone needs believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer.
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Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
You're simply stating that science isn't about truth.
I won't speak for him, but really, it isn't. Freedom from concerns about truth is precisely why science is such a powerful tool. Science is merely a very formal way of asking question and measuring observable phenomenon. In 500 years of trying science has provided far more question than it has truths. And thats a good thing. If science ever discovers truth, we will no longer need it.
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all. Freedom is not something you express with your genitals, it is something you express with your mind.
I think you're wrong. What I'm saying is that science doesn't claim to be truth, and doesn't claim to have truths, but is rather the pursuit of truths through observation and experimentation. It can be ABOUT truths, but not BE truth, in the same way that I have a book ABOUT cats, but it isn't a cat. Of course, when I say 'a truth' I mean 'a fact'. Also, of course, science is about the application of facts. It doesn't matter that science has provided more questions than answers - that doesn't make it any less about truths. It just means that these truths run very deep.
"We were backstage, playing Monopoly. Totally forgot there was a show, so sorry we are late." - Maynard James Keenan
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What world are you living in? We Christians are on the fast track to becoming a minority.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
I live in the real world. And in the real world, Christians (whether "real" [as M.F. might put it] or merely cultural) are most assuredly not on the fast track to becoming a minority. The European nations may be the fast track to becoming minorities within their own countries, but Christianity in the world-as-a-whole is growing. "Europeans" and "Christians" are two different groups. edit: Are you even aware that Christians in "Third World" nations are not only evangelizing their own nations but actually sending missionaries back to evangelize "post-Christian" Europe and North America? Do you even comprehend that *part* of the reason there is such a brouha in the "World-wide Anglican Communion" over the "gay issue" is because "Third World" Anglicans -- who take their Christianity seriously -- outnumber Episcopalians?
modified on Saturday, December 22, 2007 2:46:31 AM
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I'd be more interested in a cure for Islam.
Rob Graham wrote:
I'd be more interested in a cure for Islam.
It's called "Christianity" ... that's the only thing that's going to do it. [This, in itself, isn't proof that Christianity is true; but that's a different issue.] If the nations of Europe want to save themselves from Islam, they (as national societies) are going to have to sincerely re-convert to Christianity. I expect them to try Fascism, instead. Islam -- for all its barbarity and backwardness -- is at least something; whereas "secular humanisn" is a big nothing. And, it's impossible to beat something with nothing.
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Exactly. I honestly have no idea why he keeps blathering about science not being about truth, when he's the only one that's tried to point out a correlation between the two.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
BoneSoft wrote:
Exactly. I honestly have no idea why he keeps blathering about science not being about truth, when he's the only one that's tried to point out a correlation between the two.
I keep "blathering" because you people don't really believe (nor probably even really understand) what you youselves are saying. Look at yourselves! Look at your reactions to the straigh-forward (and true) statement that "Science isn't about truth."
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BoneSoft wrote:
Exactly. I honestly have no idea why he keeps blathering about science not being about truth, when he's the only one that's tried to point out a correlation between the two.
I keep "blathering" because you people don't really believe (nor probably even really understand) what you youselves are saying. Look at yourselves! Look at your reactions to the straigh-forward (and true) statement that "Science isn't about truth."
I'm having difficulty believing that you're this stupid. I mean, I've met idiots before, but you're on a whole different level. Your inanity is almost an artform.
"We were backstage, playing Monopoly. Totally forgot there was a show, so sorry we are late." - Maynard James Keenan
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On the other hand, what if being homo-phobic also is not a life style choice. My first innate reaction upon being made aware of the existence of homosexuality was instant revulsion. Does that mean I am genetically predisposed to be that way? If so, is the way I was born as acceptable in a secular world as homosexuality is in a chritian one? Or, do I need treatment?
The only conspiracies that concern me are the ones I am completely unaware of. By the time I find out about it, its probably a done deal. Nothing in the entire universe is more useless than morality without authority. A morality free of hypocrisy is no morality at all. Freedom is not something you express with your genitals, it is something you express with your mind.
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I live in the real world. And in the real world, Christians (whether "real" [as M.F. might put it] or merely cultural) are most assuredly not on the fast track to becoming a minority. The European nations may be the fast track to becoming minorities within their own countries, but Christianity in the world-as-a-whole is growing. "Europeans" and "Christians" are two different groups. edit: Are you even aware that Christians in "Third World" nations are not only evangelizing their own nations but actually sending missionaries back to evangelize "post-Christian" Europe and North America? Do you even comprehend that *part* of the reason there is such a brouha in the "World-wide Anglican Communion" over the "gay issue" is because "Third World" Anglicans -- who take their Christianity seriously -- outnumber Episcopalians?
modified on Saturday, December 22, 2007 2:46:31 AM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Will you be my science project? Troy D. Hailey - genius, or cretin? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
"We were backstage, playing Monopoly. Totally forgot there was a show, so sorry we are late." - Maynard James Keenan