Approved at the highest level
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Bush administration officials from Vice President Dick Cheney on down signed off on using harsh interrogation techniques against suspected terrorists after asking the Justice Department to endorse their legality, The Associated Press has learned. [^] Our executive branch is full of bona-fide war criminals. Good grief!
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Bush administration officials from Vice President Dick Cheney on down signed off on using harsh interrogation techniques against suspected terrorists after asking the Justice Department to endorse their legality, The Associated Press has learned. [^] Our executive branch is full of bona-fide war criminals. Good grief!
No we have an executive branch doing their job.
The Digital World. It is an amazing place in which we primitive humans interact. Our flesh made this synthetic machine. You see, we are so smart, we know a lot of stuff. We were grown from cells that came from the universe, which the matter and physics I'm typing in it is amazing how the universe is working. Human life is very amazing. How I experience this sh*t its like wow.
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No we have an executive branch doing their job.
The Digital World. It is an amazing place in which we primitive humans interact. Our flesh made this synthetic machine. You see, we are so smart, we know a lot of stuff. We were grown from cells that came from the universe, which the matter and physics I'm typing in it is amazing how the universe is working. Human life is very amazing. How I experience this sh*t its like wow.
That is so sad if you really believe that.
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That is so sad if you really believe that.
It is so sad that you believe that we should pamper that bastards. These aren't people who got pulled over and arrested for wearing a rag on their head. These are enemies of war, who are brainwashed into keeping important intel that could save tons of good American's lives and families. The intel must be extracted any way possible, even if it means destroying the carrier.
The Digital World. It is an amazing place in which we primitive humans interact. Our flesh made this synthetic machine. You see, we are so smart, we know a lot of stuff. We were grown from cells that came from the universe, which the matter and physics I'm typing in it is amazing how the universe is working. Human life is very amazing. How I experience this sh*t its like wow.
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It is so sad that you believe that we should pamper that bastards. These aren't people who got pulled over and arrested for wearing a rag on their head. These are enemies of war, who are brainwashed into keeping important intel that could save tons of good American's lives and families. The intel must be extracted any way possible, even if it means destroying the carrier.
The Digital World. It is an amazing place in which we primitive humans interact. Our flesh made this synthetic machine. You see, we are so smart, we know a lot of stuff. We were grown from cells that came from the universe, which the matter and physics I'm typing in it is amazing how the universe is working. Human life is very amazing. How I experience this sh*t its like wow.
CataclysmicQuantum wrote:
It is so sad that you believe that we should pamper that bastards.
To be pampered is to be not tortured? :laugh:
CataclysmicQuantum wrote:
These are enemies of war,
It isn't the first time we've been at war. Never had to torture before and we don't need to now.
CataclysmicQuantum wrote:
The intel must be extracted any way possible, even if it means destroying the carrier.
That's simply not true.
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CataclysmicQuantum wrote:
It is so sad that you believe that we should pamper that bastards.
To be pampered is to be not tortured? :laugh:
CataclysmicQuantum wrote:
These are enemies of war,
It isn't the first time we've been at war. Never had to torture before and we don't need to now.
CataclysmicQuantum wrote:
The intel must be extracted any way possible, even if it means destroying the carrier.
That's simply not true.
oilFactotum wrote:
To be pampered is to be not tortured?
In your eyes yes.
The Digital World. It is an amazing place in which we primitive humans interact. Our flesh made this synthetic machine. You see, we are so smart, we know a lot of stuff. We were grown from cells that came from the universe, which the matter and physics I'm typing in it is amazing how the universe is working. Human life is very amazing. How I experience this sh*t its like wow.
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oilFactotum wrote:
To be pampered is to be not tortured?
In your eyes yes.
The Digital World. It is an amazing place in which we primitive humans interact. Our flesh made this synthetic machine. You see, we are so smart, we know a lot of stuff. We were grown from cells that came from the universe, which the matter and physics I'm typing in it is amazing how the universe is working. Human life is very amazing. How I experience this sh*t its like wow.
CataclysmicQuantum wrote:
In your eyes yes.
In my eyes? No. You're the one who suggested that if I oppose torture then the only alternative is to pamper them. It's a strawman argument.
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Bush administration officials from Vice President Dick Cheney on down signed off on using harsh interrogation techniques against suspected terrorists after asking the Justice Department to endorse their legality, The Associated Press has learned. [^] Our executive branch is full of bona-fide war criminals. Good grief!
oilFactotum wrote:
Our executive branch is full of bona-fide war criminals.
That is patent nonsense. The West is under constant threat (and attack) from people who would not and do not hesitate to kill and maim as many innocents as they can in the furtherance of their cause. In that sort of atmosphere I positively insist that my government use all means necessary to attempt to negate that threat. Whilst I would (naively) hope that the 'tea and biscuits' approach would win the day I know damn well it won't. So if we have to torture these scum bags to stop or hinder further atrocities then do it. Don't hesitate; use any methods that will save even 1 innocent life. I, for one, applaud the politicians courage (in this context) in the face of liberal cowards like you who would rather roll over and let the fanatics win because it is easier on your conscience than having to face reality and fight them.
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oilFactotum wrote:
Our executive branch is full of bona-fide war criminals.
That is patent nonsense. The West is under constant threat (and attack) from people who would not and do not hesitate to kill and maim as many innocents as they can in the furtherance of their cause. In that sort of atmosphere I positively insist that my government use all means necessary to attempt to negate that threat. Whilst I would (naively) hope that the 'tea and biscuits' approach would win the day I know damn well it won't. So if we have to torture these scum bags to stop or hinder further atrocities then do it. Don't hesitate; use any methods that will save even 1 innocent life. I, for one, applaud the politicians courage (in this context) in the face of liberal cowards like you who would rather roll over and let the fanatics win because it is easier on your conscience than having to face reality and fight them.
digital man wrote:
I, for one, applaud the politicians courage (in this context) in the face of liberal cowards like you who would rather roll over and let the fanatics win because it is easier on your conscience than having to face reality and fight them.
Any sane person would. People like Oily are nothing more than propagandists. It isn't that he would rather let the terrorists win than fight them, it is that he views the "right" in our own political system as being the greater threat. Bush, Cheney, etc, represent to him a validation of all of his long standing anti-conservative prejudices. IMO, it is clear that the Bush administration has not handled the situation as well as it could have been. And they deserve criticism. But just as clearly, dealing with a threat as elusive as that which is coming out of the middle east is going to require reevaluating the finer legal details which our current processes are based upon. We need leadership that has the courage to 'push the envelope' in that regard. The problem is that anything a conservative president might do which in any way can be construed to be a denial of some ridiculous definition of civil rights, is going to be twisted into a Nazi like quest to destroy western civilization by the vile little Oilys of our society. The really scary part is that if a left leaning democrat were doing the precise same thing, you wouldn't hear a pip out of him. Thanks for helping to shout him down.
Please excuse my refusal to participate in the suicide of western civilization
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Bush administration officials from Vice President Dick Cheney on down signed off on using harsh interrogation techniques against suspected terrorists after asking the Justice Department to endorse their legality, The Associated Press has learned. [^] Our executive branch is full of bona-fide war criminals. Good grief!
This issue is a hellovalot more complex than most of the previous posters want to admit. There has been torture before now and anyone who thinks that any country's hands are clean in this regard probably needs a head-cleaning. The US had CIA and Special Forces guys operating in Cambodia that routinely did things that most of us don't want to think about. The North Vietnamese dailey carried out torture that suggested an utter contempt for human life and humanity. The atrocities being visted on civilians (foreign and domestic) and troops captured in combat by the various Islamic factions in Iraq are disgusting and infuriating and cry out for retribution. What the U.S. has done in secret prisons shames me, and makes me worried for what happens when/if a full-scale war occurs and Iran or whoever decides it's payback time. It bothers me that men like Bush and Cheney who have no combat experience and do not have the slightest idea what it is like to be in mortal danger think that patriotism and sadism are the same thing. It also bothers me that someone like Hillary Clinton who makes up stories about being under sniper fire announces that she knows that torture is never the right thing to do.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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digital man wrote:
I, for one, applaud the politicians courage (in this context) in the face of liberal cowards like you who would rather roll over and let the fanatics win because it is easier on your conscience than having to face reality and fight them.
Any sane person would. People like Oily are nothing more than propagandists. It isn't that he would rather let the terrorists win than fight them, it is that he views the "right" in our own political system as being the greater threat. Bush, Cheney, etc, represent to him a validation of all of his long standing anti-conservative prejudices. IMO, it is clear that the Bush administration has not handled the situation as well as it could have been. And they deserve criticism. But just as clearly, dealing with a threat as elusive as that which is coming out of the middle east is going to require reevaluating the finer legal details which our current processes are based upon. We need leadership that has the courage to 'push the envelope' in that regard. The problem is that anything a conservative president might do which in any way can be construed to be a denial of some ridiculous definition of civil rights, is going to be twisted into a Nazi like quest to destroy western civilization by the vile little Oilys of our society. The really scary part is that if a left leaning democrat were doing the precise same thing, you wouldn't hear a pip out of him. Thanks for helping to shout him down.
Please excuse my refusal to participate in the suicide of western civilization
My pleasure and I'm glad there are issues upon which we can agree at the same time as having fun kicking the crap out of each other. :-)
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My pleasure and I'm glad there are issues upon which we can agree at the same time as having fun kicking the crap out of each other. :-)
digital man wrote:
I'm glad there are issues upon which we can agree at the same time as having fun kicking the crap out of each other.
I have found it altogether a fine goal in life to have at least one major argument against every sort of fundamental truth any person could possibly subscribe to. Some might call it trolling, but I just view it as a wonderful form of intellectual exercise.
Please excuse my refusal to participate in the suicide of western civilization
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digital man wrote:
I'm glad there are issues upon which we can agree at the same time as having fun kicking the crap out of each other.
I have found it altogether a fine goal in life to have at least one major argument against every sort of fundamental truth any person could possibly subscribe to. Some might call it trolling, but I just view it as a wonderful form of intellectual exercise.
Please excuse my refusal to participate in the suicide of western civilization
Oh, BS. Every time I bring up some religious argument you become the outspoken apologist, apologist.
Everything is bleak. It's the middle of the night. You're all alone and the dummies might be right.
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Oh, BS. Every time I bring up some religious argument you become the outspoken apologist, apologist.
Everything is bleak. It's the middle of the night. You're all alone and the dummies might be right.
73Zeppelin wrote:
Every time I bring up some religious argument you become the outspoken apologist, apologist.
Precisely...
Please excuse my refusal to participate in the suicide of western civilization
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This issue is a hellovalot more complex than most of the previous posters want to admit. There has been torture before now and anyone who thinks that any country's hands are clean in this regard probably needs a head-cleaning. The US had CIA and Special Forces guys operating in Cambodia that routinely did things that most of us don't want to think about. The North Vietnamese dailey carried out torture that suggested an utter contempt for human life and humanity. The atrocities being visted on civilians (foreign and domestic) and troops captured in combat by the various Islamic factions in Iraq are disgusting and infuriating and cry out for retribution. What the U.S. has done in secret prisons shames me, and makes me worried for what happens when/if a full-scale war occurs and Iran or whoever decides it's payback time. It bothers me that men like Bush and Cheney who have no combat experience and do not have the slightest idea what it is like to be in mortal danger think that patriotism and sadism are the same thing. It also bothers me that someone like Hillary Clinton who makes up stories about being under sniper fire announces that she knows that torture is never the right thing to do.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
It bothers me that men like Bush and Cheney ... think that patriotism and sadism are the same thing.
It bothers me that men like you are incapable of distinquishing between criticism and libel.
Please excuse my refusal to participate in the suicide of western civilization
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oilFactotum wrote:
Our executive branch is full of bona-fide war criminals.
That is patent nonsense. The West is under constant threat (and attack) from people who would not and do not hesitate to kill and maim as many innocents as they can in the furtherance of their cause. In that sort of atmosphere I positively insist that my government use all means necessary to attempt to negate that threat. Whilst I would (naively) hope that the 'tea and biscuits' approach would win the day I know damn well it won't. So if we have to torture these scum bags to stop or hinder further atrocities then do it. Don't hesitate; use any methods that will save even 1 innocent life. I, for one, applaud the politicians courage (in this context) in the face of liberal cowards like you who would rather roll over and let the fanatics win because it is easier on your conscience than having to face reality and fight them.
digital man wrote:
That is patent nonsense.
Of course it isn't. After WWII we executed people who did the exact same things that our government has authorized. Our laws - the War Crimes act of 1996, for example - and our treaty obligations are clear.
digital man wrote:
The West is under constant threat (and attack) from people who would not and do not hesitate to kill and maim as many innocents as they can in the furtherance of their cause.
It's not the first time. And we've always been able to treat our prisoners humanely.
digital man wrote:
I would (naively) hope that the 'tea and biscuits' approach would win the day I know damn well it won't.
You know it won't? I doubt it. It's always worked before, it will continue to work now.
digital man wrote:
applaud the politicians courage
Courage? Resorted to torture and ignoring the rule of lawis criminal and cowardly.
digital man wrote:
in the face of liberal cowards like you who would rather roll over and let the fanatics win because it is easier on your conscience than having to face reality and fight them.
Do you really believe what you are saying?! We can only win if we torture? That it is cowardly to resist becoming just like our enemies? What a bizarre bipolar world you have created for yourself - 'We must torture or surrender'. :wtf:
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This issue is a hellovalot more complex than most of the previous posters want to admit. There has been torture before now and anyone who thinks that any country's hands are clean in this regard probably needs a head-cleaning. The US had CIA and Special Forces guys operating in Cambodia that routinely did things that most of us don't want to think about. The North Vietnamese dailey carried out torture that suggested an utter contempt for human life and humanity. The atrocities being visted on civilians (foreign and domestic) and troops captured in combat by the various Islamic factions in Iraq are disgusting and infuriating and cry out for retribution. What the U.S. has done in secret prisons shames me, and makes me worried for what happens when/if a full-scale war occurs and Iran or whoever decides it's payback time. It bothers me that men like Bush and Cheney who have no combat experience and do not have the slightest idea what it is like to be in mortal danger think that patriotism and sadism are the same thing. It also bothers me that someone like Hillary Clinton who makes up stories about being under sniper fire announces that she knows that torture is never the right thing to do.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
There has been torture before now and anyone who thinks that any country's hands are clean in this regard probably needs a head-cleaning.
You are no doubt correct that individuals, out of perceived necessity or anger, have tortured prisoners in the past and there will be those who will do it in the future. What is different in this war is that a regime of torture was created at the highest levels of the US government as a key component in this 'War on Terror'. Torture has never been US policy before.
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Oakman wrote:
There has been torture before now and anyone who thinks that any country's hands are clean in this regard probably needs a head-cleaning.
You are no doubt correct that individuals, out of perceived necessity or anger, have tortured prisoners in the past and there will be those who will do it in the future. What is different in this war is that a regime of torture was created at the highest levels of the US government as a key component in this 'War on Terror'. Torture has never been US policy before.
oilFactotum wrote:
Torture has never been US policy before.
We have also never been under a sustained, orgainzed terrorist threat of this magnitude before. If you would prefer we do things the old fashioned way and just carpet bomb or nuke people (while otherwise being really nice guys), I'm ok with that also. But, if not, new threats require new counter measures. The terrorists are well aware of our traditional rules of engagment and very much depend upon us mindlessly adhering to them.
Please excuse my refusal to participate in the suicide of western civilization
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digital man wrote:
That is patent nonsense.
Of course it isn't. After WWII we executed people who did the exact same things that our government has authorized. Our laws - the War Crimes act of 1996, for example - and our treaty obligations are clear.
digital man wrote:
The West is under constant threat (and attack) from people who would not and do not hesitate to kill and maim as many innocents as they can in the furtherance of their cause.
It's not the first time. And we've always been able to treat our prisoners humanely.
digital man wrote:
I would (naively) hope that the 'tea and biscuits' approach would win the day I know damn well it won't.
You know it won't? I doubt it. It's always worked before, it will continue to work now.
digital man wrote:
applaud the politicians courage
Courage? Resorted to torture and ignoring the rule of lawis criminal and cowardly.
digital man wrote:
in the face of liberal cowards like you who would rather roll over and let the fanatics win because it is easier on your conscience than having to face reality and fight them.
Do you really believe what you are saying?! We can only win if we torture? That it is cowardly to resist becoming just like our enemies? What a bizarre bipolar world you have created for yourself - 'We must torture or surrender'. :wtf:
oilFactotum wrote:
After WWII we executed people who did the exact same things that our government has authorized
Wouldn't executing someone be worse than water boarding them?
Please excuse my refusal to participate in the suicide of western civilization
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oilFactotum wrote:
Torture has never been US policy before.
We have also never been under a sustained, orgainzed terrorist threat of this magnitude before. If you would prefer we do things the old fashioned way and just carpet bomb or nuke people (while otherwise being really nice guys), I'm ok with that also. But, if not, new threats require new counter measures. The terrorists are well aware of our traditional rules of engagment and very much depend upon us mindlessly adhering to them.
Please excuse my refusal to participate in the suicide of western civilization
Stan Shannon wrote:
We have also never been under a sustained, orgainzed terrorist threat of this magnitude before.
That's true - this is probably the largest terrorist threat that we've encountered - a few thousand guys led by another guy hiding in a cave. So, what you are saying is technically true. What you are suggesting is utterly false. We have indeed faced such evil before, this is not unique.
Stan Shannon wrote:
new threats require new counter measures
While it is true that a conventional war of the type we fought against the Nazis would not be appropriate to this war, tossing out the rule of law and descending into war crimes are not the appropriate 'new counter measures'.