Wisconsin Parents Who Prayed as Daughter Died to Face Murder Charges
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Christian Graus wrote:
I love it when people stoop to insults. It really says a lot about them.
Interesting you do not see your post insulting, but that which praise your state insulting.
Christian Graus wrote:
Luk 4:12 And Jesus answered and said to him, "It has been said, 'You shall not tempt the LORD your God.'"[fn8]
Do you understand the difference between "test" and "tempt"? Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
Paul Selormey wrote:
Interesting you do not see your post insulting, but that which praise your state insulting.
Whatever
Paul Selormey wrote:
Do you understand the difference between "test" and "tempt"?
I understand two things. 1 - The word used, in the Greek, means to test. I posted that. 2 - The context is clear. Jesus is told to put himself in harms way to give God a chance to act, and He invokes this OT scripture as a reason not to. Inaction is a form of action. Failing to take opportunity of solutions to your problems is putting yourself in harms way. I am sorry, but I cannot percieve how you could possibly regard that Jesus is not saying that if you allow yourself harm on the basis that you'll leave it to God to fix it for you, that is a wrong attitude.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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Ray Cassick wrote:
Their beliefs end at tip of their nose. They have no right to impose their beliefs on another that way.
Just to find out, is this you considered belief? Or is there some way in which your belief has more validity than theirs?
Learn to write self marginalizing code! Call 1-888-BAD-CODE ------------------ Silver member by constant and unflinching longevity.
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Paul Selormey wrote:
Interesting you do not see your post insulting, but that which praise your state insulting.
Whatever
Paul Selormey wrote:
Do you understand the difference between "test" and "tempt"?
I understand two things. 1 - The word used, in the Greek, means to test. I posted that. 2 - The context is clear. Jesus is told to put himself in harms way to give God a chance to act, and He invokes this OT scripture as a reason not to. Inaction is a form of action. Failing to take opportunity of solutions to your problems is putting yourself in harms way. I am sorry, but I cannot percieve how you could possibly regard that Jesus is not saying that if you allow yourself harm on the basis that you'll leave it to God to fix it for you, that is a wrong attitude.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
The actual verse, Jesus quoted is part of the ten commandments. Deuteronomy 6:16. Clearly, you understood the difference, even though you will want it to look like the "testing" you have being mentioning. Even more surpursed when you mentioned "Concordance", since that does not give meaning of any word. Mal 3: 10 "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this," says the LORD of hosts, "if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows" Here, it never mean "tempt me" because there is a difference. We should, therefore, be careful the way we interpret our Bible. Jesus said, you shall lay hands on the sick and they will recover. I have "tested" it and know it is true, I did not "tempt" God, and I doubt it was the first time those parents prayed for their children on sickness. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
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Ray Cassick wrote:
Their beliefs end at tip of their nose. They have no right to impose their beliefs on another that way.
Just to find out, is this you considered belief? Or is there some way in which your belief has more validity than theirs?
Learn to write self marginalizing code! Call 1-888-BAD-CODE ------------------ Silver member by constant and unflinching longevity.
Yes, it is my belief, and I am not imposing it on anyone. I am stating that anyone that does not believe it needs their head examined. Do they honestly think that god wanted them to simply believe enough that she would get better? If there is a god (and I am by no means saying there is) would he not want his creation to stand up and act somehow? Is he that self centered that ALL he wants is for his followers to love him soooo much and watch their child die rather than act? Is he that self important to not inspire them in anyway to lift a finger? You have to remember that these people were not members of some cult driven by a whack job leader, or loyal members to some strict church. These were independent religious people show simply decided to NOT act and pray instead. My belief is founded by science and law. Do people treated by doctors for what this girl died of still die? yes they do. Does that mean that science is not an option? No. Does it mean that a god could have done a better job? I doubt it. With respect to curing illness who has a better batting average? I bet on science every time.
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The actual verse, Jesus quoted is part of the ten commandments. Deuteronomy 6:16. Clearly, you understood the difference, even though you will want it to look like the "testing" you have being mentioning. Even more surpursed when you mentioned "Concordance", since that does not give meaning of any word. Mal 3: 10 "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this," says the LORD of hosts, "if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows" Here, it never mean "tempt me" because there is a difference. We should, therefore, be careful the way we interpret our Bible. Jesus said, you shall lay hands on the sick and they will recover. I have "tested" it and know it is true, I did not "tempt" God, and I doubt it was the first time those parents prayed for their children on sickness. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
Paul Selormey wrote:
Even more surpursed when you mentioned "Concordance", since that does not give meaning of any word.
I posted the meaning, direct from blueletterbible.org. Let's not play word games.
Paul Selormey wrote:
Here, it never mean "tempt me" because there is a difference. We should, therefore, be careful the way we interpret our Bible.
Yes, there are specific verses where God talks about specific tests He sets for Himself. Prophets of Baal are an obvious example. The difference is, we're not free to invent our own tests.
Paul Selormey wrote:
Jesus said, you shall lay hands on the sick and they will recover. I have "tested" it and know it is true, I did not "tempt" God, and I doubt it was the first time those parents prayed for their children on sickness.
OK, so does the death of this child mean that 1 - God failed 2 - the parents were punished for some lack of faith, or 3 - God didn't mean the promise of healing to mean that one should act to make illness occur/persist/get worse, so that He has more healing work to do ? I vote 3. I too would pray with my kids, and for myself. I'd also go to the doctor, if I was sick. That's just common sense, it's not a lack of faith, it means that I have faith, but I do not set out to test God.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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Paul Selormey wrote:
Interesting you do not see your post insulting, but that which praise your state insulting.
Whatever
Paul Selormey wrote:
Do you understand the difference between "test" and "tempt"?
I understand two things. 1 - The word used, in the Greek, means to test. I posted that. 2 - The context is clear. Jesus is told to put himself in harms way to give God a chance to act, and He invokes this OT scripture as a reason not to. Inaction is a form of action. Failing to take opportunity of solutions to your problems is putting yourself in harms way. I am sorry, but I cannot percieve how you could possibly regard that Jesus is not saying that if you allow yourself harm on the basis that you'll leave it to God to fix it for you, that is a wrong attitude.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Christian, stop wasting your time. Over the past several years Pauly has proven himself to be incapable of understanding or debating any of his Jesus beliefs. He is the perfect example of the blind follower and will dribble on for days not allowing the thread to die. His shithouse command of the English language just makes it all the harder to communicate with him. Anyway I believe Paul of off for a bit of whale hunting in an 8 foot tinny and a steak knife so he can truly test his belief.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
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Christian, stop wasting your time. Over the past several years Pauly has proven himself to be incapable of understanding or debating any of his Jesus beliefs. He is the perfect example of the blind follower and will dribble on for days not allowing the thread to die. His shithouse command of the English language just makes it all the harder to communicate with him. Anyway I believe Paul of off for a bit of whale hunting in an 8 foot tinny and a steak knife so he can truly test his belief.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
Paul's not the worst offender here, but, some of what he's said, does beggar belief. I was assuming we were coming to the end of this discussion.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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Yes, it is my belief, and I am not imposing it on anyone. I am stating that anyone that does not believe it needs their head examined. Do they honestly think that god wanted them to simply believe enough that she would get better? If there is a god (and I am by no means saying there is) would he not want his creation to stand up and act somehow? Is he that self centered that ALL he wants is for his followers to love him soooo much and watch their child die rather than act? Is he that self important to not inspire them in anyway to lift a finger? You have to remember that these people were not members of some cult driven by a whack job leader, or loyal members to some strict church. These were independent religious people show simply decided to NOT act and pray instead. My belief is founded by science and law. Do people treated by doctors for what this girl died of still die? yes they do. Does that mean that science is not an option? No. Does it mean that a god could have done a better job? I doubt it. With respect to curing illness who has a better batting average? I bet on science every time.
Ray Cassick wrote:
I bet on science every time.
I hope you will agree with me that you did not just bet, it was based on facts you knew. People who might bet otherwise, will also be based on facts they knew. The unfortunate fact is that, you never hear the other parts in the media since they are not based on scientific logic or laws. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
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Paul Selormey wrote:
Even more surpursed when you mentioned "Concordance", since that does not give meaning of any word.
I posted the meaning, direct from blueletterbible.org. Let's not play word games.
Paul Selormey wrote:
Here, it never mean "tempt me" because there is a difference. We should, therefore, be careful the way we interpret our Bible.
Yes, there are specific verses where God talks about specific tests He sets for Himself. Prophets of Baal are an obvious example. The difference is, we're not free to invent our own tests.
Paul Selormey wrote:
Jesus said, you shall lay hands on the sick and they will recover. I have "tested" it and know it is true, I did not "tempt" God, and I doubt it was the first time those parents prayed for their children on sickness.
OK, so does the death of this child mean that 1 - God failed 2 - the parents were punished for some lack of faith, or 3 - God didn't mean the promise of healing to mean that one should act to make illness occur/persist/get worse, so that He has more healing work to do ? I vote 3. I too would pray with my kids, and for myself. I'd also go to the doctor, if I was sick. That's just common sense, it's not a lack of faith, it means that I have faith, but I do not set out to test God.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Christian Graus wrote:
I posted the meaning, direct from blueletterbible.org. Let's not play word games.
If that is a mistake just say it, concordance is a common part of most Bibles today, and I use it a lot and not for the meaning of a word. Besides, the "blueletterbible.org" goes further to explain the context to which it might mean "to test, try, prove" with verses. So, it is not a word game, it makes a whole difference in a Christian's believe.
Christian Graus wrote:
OK, so does the death of this child mean that 1 - God failed 2 - the parents were punished for some lack of faith, or 3 - God didn't mean the promise of healing to mean that one should act to make illness occur/persist/get worse, so that He has more healing work to do ?
1. No, God will never fail. 2. No, my God will not do that, He will test me, and allow Satan to tempt me, though. When Job's children died, God allowed it to happen for a reason, and since I do not understand the plan of God over this issue, I will not take a stand. Job's persisted and that gave him a victory we are all blessed by everyday. 3. Again, I do not know exactly what the parents did. From the report they fasted and prayed. As for what God's promise means to an individual, it depends on your faith - when Jesus asked Peter to come over the water, Peter was walking until he doubted and began to sink. If you doubt from the start, you will not even take the first step, but do not claim that is the truth.
Christian Graus wrote:
I too would pray with my kids, and for myself. I'd also go to the doctor, if I was sick. That's just common sense, it's not a lack of faith, it means that I have faith, but I do not set out to test God.
I do not understand, what do you pray for and why? The skill of the doctors are perfecting. I will have understood you if you prayed only for the doctor to perfect his/her skill. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
modified on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 12:22 AM
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Yes, it is my belief, and I am not imposing it on anyone. I am stating that anyone that does not believe it needs their head examined. Do they honestly think that god wanted them to simply believe enough that she would get better? If there is a god (and I am by no means saying there is) would he not want his creation to stand up and act somehow? Is he that self centered that ALL he wants is for his followers to love him soooo much and watch their child die rather than act? Is he that self important to not inspire them in anyway to lift a finger? You have to remember that these people were not members of some cult driven by a whack job leader, or loyal members to some strict church. These were independent religious people show simply decided to NOT act and pray instead. My belief is founded by science and law. Do people treated by doctors for what this girl died of still die? yes they do. Does that mean that science is not an option? No. Does it mean that a god could have done a better job? I doubt it. With respect to curing illness who has a better batting average? I bet on science every time.
You just don't get the irony, do you?
Ray Cassick wrote:
Yes, it is my belief, and I am not imposing it on anyone. I am stating that anyone that does not believe it needs their head examined.
How very Soviet of you :laugh: "He is not wrong, he is just mentally ill, since he disagrees with the party line. Oh well, to late to reeducate him, let's just send him to the Gulag"
Ray Cassick wrote:
Do they honestly think that god wanted them to simply believe enough that she would get better?
Do YOU honestly think they were attempting to abuse their child? I know there are people who believe that a whole class of medical procedures is against God's will, and that going against God's will is inherently bad. I don't agree with them on medicine, but I can still understand them, as I can understand you.
Learn to write self marginalizing code! Call 1-888-BAD-CODE ------------------ Silver member by constant and unflinching longevity.
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You just don't get the irony, do you?
Ray Cassick wrote:
Yes, it is my belief, and I am not imposing it on anyone. I am stating that anyone that does not believe it needs their head examined.
How very Soviet of you :laugh: "He is not wrong, he is just mentally ill, since he disagrees with the party line. Oh well, to late to reeducate him, let's just send him to the Gulag"
Ray Cassick wrote:
Do they honestly think that god wanted them to simply believe enough that she would get better?
Do YOU honestly think they were attempting to abuse their child? I know there are people who believe that a whole class of medical procedures is against God's will, and that going against God's will is inherently bad. I don't agree with them on medicine, but I can still understand them, as I can understand you.
Learn to write self marginalizing code! Call 1-888-BAD-CODE ------------------ Silver member by constant and unflinching longevity.
RichardM1 wrote:
let's just send him to the Gulag
Never said that. I never said that they need to be put away because they are crazy. I said they need to be put away because they broke a law. Are you saying that these people are above the law established by the rest of society?
RichardM1 wrote:
Do YOU honestly think they were attempting to abuse their child?
Intentionally? Nope. Actually I understand them also. In a small (minuscule) way I give them credit for having the conviction to stand by their beliefs and let their child die. BUT, I give them no pity. They made the choice and need to live by it now. No pity for them and tons of pity for the lost girl. Strangely enough I also feel the same about suicide bombers that feel enough conviction about their task but again, I feel nothing for them in the way of pity. Anyone that can blinded enough by religion to allow a loved one to suffer like that deserves hat they get. The problem is that they are not going to ever feel like they made a mistake. They will simply think that either they were not strong enough, or devoted enough, or important enough to their god for him to help them. This thinking belittles the human being and cheapens the death of the little girl. Just think... if she had asked her parents to take her to a doctor (who says she didn't?) would they have taken her or would they have forced their beliefs on her and still allowed her to die.
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RichardM1 wrote:
let's just send him to the Gulag
Never said that. I never said that they need to be put away because they are crazy. I said they need to be put away because they broke a law. Are you saying that these people are above the law established by the rest of society?
RichardM1 wrote:
Do YOU honestly think they were attempting to abuse their child?
Intentionally? Nope. Actually I understand them also. In a small (minuscule) way I give them credit for having the conviction to stand by their beliefs and let their child die. BUT, I give them no pity. They made the choice and need to live by it now. No pity for them and tons of pity for the lost girl. Strangely enough I also feel the same about suicide bombers that feel enough conviction about their task but again, I feel nothing for them in the way of pity. Anyone that can blinded enough by religion to allow a loved one to suffer like that deserves hat they get. The problem is that they are not going to ever feel like they made a mistake. They will simply think that either they were not strong enough, or devoted enough, or important enough to their god for him to help them. This thinking belittles the human being and cheapens the death of the little girl. Just think... if she had asked her parents to take her to a doctor (who says she didn't?) would they have taken her or would they have forced their beliefs on her and still allowed her to die.
Ray Cassick wrote:
Never said that. I never said that they need to be put away because they are crazy. I said they need to be put away because they broke a law. Are you saying that these people are above the law established by the rest of society?
I am not saying they are above any law. But you are making hard judgment to call them crazy because they do not believe the same way you do. Turn it around, would you want them judging your mental fitness based on their view of your beliefs? But you presume to judge theirs. You claim to base your judgment on science, but how much have you studied diabetes (you could have it for all I know)? Or have you read and heard a little about it, and you are taking what you hear on faith because the people saying it have PhD or MD after their names? Unless it is personal experience, it is almost always faith. And even personal experience is mainly anecdotal. ;) How many times do we repeat our experiences? How well controlled are they? Though I AM getting a statistically significant sample that says I sock at financial decisions. :laugh: You need to always be aware of your assumptions when you bash the assumptions of others.
Ray Cassick wrote:
The problem is that they are not going to ever feel like they made a mistake. They will simply think that either they were not strong enough, or devoted enough, or important enough to their god for him to help them. This thinking belittles the human being and cheapens the death of the little girl.
You don't seem to have much real world knowledge about people. Even the most devoted people I know are not so blinded that they do not have self doubt, that they do not question the things they think that they did correctly at the time. These people have the death of their girl, and you think they are going to trivialize the second guessing they will go through down to "well, we thought God wanted it, I'm going to sleep now honey"? You have got to admit, you seem to be pretty bigoted against them because of their religion.
Learn to write self marginalizing code! Call 1-888-BAD-CODE ------------------ Silver member by constant and unflinching longevity.
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RichardM1 wrote:
let's just send him to the Gulag
Never said that. I never said that they need to be put away because they are crazy. I said they need to be put away because they broke a law. Are you saying that these people are above the law established by the rest of society?
RichardM1 wrote:
Do YOU honestly think they were attempting to abuse their child?
Intentionally? Nope. Actually I understand them also. In a small (minuscule) way I give them credit for having the conviction to stand by their beliefs and let their child die. BUT, I give them no pity. They made the choice and need to live by it now. No pity for them and tons of pity for the lost girl. Strangely enough I also feel the same about suicide bombers that feel enough conviction about their task but again, I feel nothing for them in the way of pity. Anyone that can blinded enough by religion to allow a loved one to suffer like that deserves hat they get. The problem is that they are not going to ever feel like they made a mistake. They will simply think that either they were not strong enough, or devoted enough, or important enough to their god for him to help them. This thinking belittles the human being and cheapens the death of the little girl. Just think... if she had asked her parents to take her to a doctor (who says she didn't?) would they have taken her or would they have forced their beliefs on her and still allowed her to die.
Ray Cassick wrote:
Intentionally? Nope.
This is all I wanted to establish. Even now, if the Christians stand and pray, that child can be raised from the dead - I know you have more difficulties here. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
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Ray Cassick wrote:
Never said that. I never said that they need to be put away because they are crazy. I said they need to be put away because they broke a law. Are you saying that these people are above the law established by the rest of society?
I am not saying they are above any law. But you are making hard judgment to call them crazy because they do not believe the same way you do. Turn it around, would you want them judging your mental fitness based on their view of your beliefs? But you presume to judge theirs. You claim to base your judgment on science, but how much have you studied diabetes (you could have it for all I know)? Or have you read and heard a little about it, and you are taking what you hear on faith because the people saying it have PhD or MD after their names? Unless it is personal experience, it is almost always faith. And even personal experience is mainly anecdotal. ;) How many times do we repeat our experiences? How well controlled are they? Though I AM getting a statistically significant sample that says I sock at financial decisions. :laugh: You need to always be aware of your assumptions when you bash the assumptions of others.
Ray Cassick wrote:
The problem is that they are not going to ever feel like they made a mistake. They will simply think that either they were not strong enough, or devoted enough, or important enough to their god for him to help them. This thinking belittles the human being and cheapens the death of the little girl.
You don't seem to have much real world knowledge about people. Even the most devoted people I know are not so blinded that they do not have self doubt, that they do not question the things they think that they did correctly at the time. These people have the death of their girl, and you think they are going to trivialize the second guessing they will go through down to "well, we thought God wanted it, I'm going to sleep now honey"? You have got to admit, you seem to be pretty bigoted against them because of their religion.
Learn to write self marginalizing code! Call 1-888-BAD-CODE ------------------ Silver member by constant and unflinching longevity.
RichardM1 wrote:
but how much have you studied diabetes
I have a family history of both TypeI and TypeII. I have seen the effect of what it can do. I am no expert by any means but I know one thing... I would not want MY child to die that way.
RichardM1 wrote:
You don't seem to have much real world knowledge about people.
Your opinion I guess.
RichardM1 wrote:
you seem to be pretty bigoted against them because of their religion.
I completely admit that I AM bigoted towards them because of their religion. Just take a gander in my signature... I don't hide it. I am an atheist. Just as most religious people are against me for being a non-believer. I am just saying that they belong in prison because they let their child die. Christians tell me that I am spending my eternity once I die being torchered in hell by Satan. I am not saying that they may not have self doubt. I am sure they will. What I said was that they will not admit that what they did was wrong and would not make that same decision again.
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Christian Graus wrote:
I posted the meaning, direct from blueletterbible.org. Let's not play word games.
If that is a mistake just say it, concordance is a common part of most Bibles today, and I use it a lot and not for the meaning of a word. Besides, the "blueletterbible.org" goes further to explain the context to which it might mean "to test, try, prove" with verses. So, it is not a word game, it makes a whole difference in a Christian's believe.
Christian Graus wrote:
OK, so does the death of this child mean that 1 - God failed 2 - the parents were punished for some lack of faith, or 3 - God didn't mean the promise of healing to mean that one should act to make illness occur/persist/get worse, so that He has more healing work to do ?
1. No, God will never fail. 2. No, my God will not do that, He will test me, and allow Satan to tempt me, though. When Job's children died, God allowed it to happen for a reason, and since I do not understand the plan of God over this issue, I will not take a stand. Job's persisted and that gave him a victory we are all blessed by everyday. 3. Again, I do not know exactly what the parents did. From the report they fasted and prayed. As for what God's promise means to an individual, it depends on your faith - when Jesus asked Peter to come over the water, Peter was walking until he doubted and began to sink. If you doubt from the start, you will not even take the first step, but do not claim that is the truth.
Christian Graus wrote:
I too would pray with my kids, and for myself. I'd also go to the doctor, if I was sick. That's just common sense, it's not a lack of faith, it means that I have faith, but I do not set out to test God.
I do not understand, what do you pray for and why? The skill of the doctors are perfecting. I will have understood you if you prayed only for the doctor to perfect his/her skill. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
modified on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 12:22 AM
Paul Selormey wrote:
Besides, the "blueletterbible.org" goes further to explain the context to which it might mean "to test, try, prove" with verses.
Does it ? I just copied and pasted the meaning of the word, I think it's pretty clear to me. Tempting and testing are basically the same thing.
Paul Selormey wrote:
and allow Satan to tempt me, though
No, the Bible doesn't say that. It says we are tempted by our own lusts. Satan is not required.
Paul Selormey wrote:
Job's persisted and that gave him a victory we are all blessed by everyday.
Yes, all of the Old Testament happened to teach us things about the nature of God. It doesn't follow to assume that God lets children die to teach us things in the New, especially not when it's not God, but a parent who decides to deny medical care.
Paul Selormey wrote:
If you doubt from the start, you will not even take the first step, but do not claim that is the truth.
This whole section fails spectacularly in answering what I said.
Paul Selormey wrote:
I will have understood you if you prayed only for the doctor to perfect his/her skill.
Well, I guess that fits with how bizarre your overall position is to me. I was thinking about this, in light of people in my church. I can think of several people who have been healed of cancer, they can only back up that claim because they submitted to surgery and the surgeons told them without doubt that the cancer had shrunk or disappeared. What do you think the purpose of healing of sickness is, in God's overall plan ? Do you think it's to let God decide whose kids live and die, when human medicine is well able to save them ? How is God glorified by what has happened here ? How does death bring Him praise ?
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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Ray Cassick wrote:
Intentionally? Nope.
This is all I wanted to establish. Even now, if the Christians stand and pray, that child can be raised from the dead - I know you have more difficulties here. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
Paul Selormey wrote:
I know you have more difficulties here.
Paul, Do you really believe that? Have you seen it happen (I mean really seen it) or are you just going by what you have been told in the bible? Or are you simply speaking about a persons energy being recycled once they die (The First Law of Thermodynamics)? I guess it comes right down to, if they had simply acted then maybe they would not need to pray for her return.
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Paul Selormey wrote:
Besides, the "blueletterbible.org" goes further to explain the context to which it might mean "to test, try, prove" with verses.
Does it ? I just copied and pasted the meaning of the word, I think it's pretty clear to me. Tempting and testing are basically the same thing.
Paul Selormey wrote:
and allow Satan to tempt me, though
No, the Bible doesn't say that. It says we are tempted by our own lusts. Satan is not required.
Paul Selormey wrote:
Job's persisted and that gave him a victory we are all blessed by everyday.
Yes, all of the Old Testament happened to teach us things about the nature of God. It doesn't follow to assume that God lets children die to teach us things in the New, especially not when it's not God, but a parent who decides to deny medical care.
Paul Selormey wrote:
If you doubt from the start, you will not even take the first step, but do not claim that is the truth.
This whole section fails spectacularly in answering what I said.
Paul Selormey wrote:
I will have understood you if you prayed only for the doctor to perfect his/her skill.
Well, I guess that fits with how bizarre your overall position is to me. I was thinking about this, in light of people in my church. I can think of several people who have been healed of cancer, they can only back up that claim because they submitted to surgery and the surgeons told them without doubt that the cancer had shrunk or disappeared. What do you think the purpose of healing of sickness is, in God's overall plan ? Do you think it's to let God decide whose kids live and die, when human medicine is well able to save them ? How is God glorified by what has happened here ? How does death bring Him praise ?
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
Christian Graus wrote:
Does it ? I just copied and pasted the meaning of the word, I think it's pretty clear to me. Tempting and testing are basically the same thing.
Hmmm, I guess you might wish to take a second look or let me paste the full text for you.
Christian Graus wrote:
No, the Bible doesn't say that. It says we are tempted by our own lusts. Satan is not required.
Matt. 4:1 "Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil." I guess that only applies to Jesus and not us.
Christian Graus wrote:
Yes, all of the Old Testament happened to teach us things about the nature of God. It doesn't follow to assume that God lets children die to teach us things in the New, especially not when it's not God, but a parent who decides to deny medical care.
I guess, He became new in the New Testament or His ways or He changed. And any promise in the Old Testament is not valid in the New.
Christian Graus wrote:
Well, I guess that fits with how bizarre your overall position is to me. I was thinking about this...
Was the question not simple enough, let me repeat it...what for and why do you pray? Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
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Paul Selormey wrote:
I know you have more difficulties here.
Paul, Do you really believe that? Have you seen it happen (I mean really seen it) or are you just going by what you have been told in the bible? Or are you simply speaking about a persons energy being recycled once they die (The First Law of Thermodynamics)? I guess it comes right down to, if they had simply acted then maybe they would not need to pray for her return.
Yeah, I know I was going to invoke some law :) It is all over. Even here in Japan, where there seems to be no Christians. The truth is, you only hear these stories in the churches. Here is a book by one of them...[^] I could buy and send you a copy, if you will not mind. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Does it ? I just copied and pasted the meaning of the word, I think it's pretty clear to me. Tempting and testing are basically the same thing.
Hmmm, I guess you might wish to take a second look or let me paste the full text for you.
Christian Graus wrote:
No, the Bible doesn't say that. It says we are tempted by our own lusts. Satan is not required.
Matt. 4:1 "Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil." I guess that only applies to Jesus and not us.
Christian Graus wrote:
Yes, all of the Old Testament happened to teach us things about the nature of God. It doesn't follow to assume that God lets children die to teach us things in the New, especially not when it's not God, but a parent who decides to deny medical care.
I guess, He became new in the New Testament or His ways or He changed. And any promise in the Old Testament is not valid in the New.
Christian Graus wrote:
Well, I guess that fits with how bizarre your overall position is to me. I was thinking about this...
Was the question not simple enough, let me repeat it...what for and why do you pray? Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
Paul Selormey wrote:
Hmmm, I guess you might wish to take a second look or let me paste the full text for you.
Please do explain how you rationalise this.
Paul Selormey wrote:
I guess that only applies to Jesus and not us.
Well, I guess so, unless Satan leads you into the wilderness, and speaks to you. I quoted the Bible - God is not tempted, neither tempts he any man, but we are drawn away by our own lusts and enticed.
Paul Selormey wrote:
I guess, He became new in the New Testament or His ways or He changed.
I did not say that, and you know it. I said that the OT happened for a reason, and that reason was not to suggest that anyting He did while dealing with one person, such as Abraham, who was the cornerstone of His plan for Israel, is an example of how we'd expect God to deal with all people, in any circumstance.
Paul Selormey wrote:
And any promise in the Old Testament is not valid in the New.
Any promise made to Israel certainly does not guarentee to flow to the New, we have new and better promises, not the same ones given to a specific nation.
Paul Selormey wrote:
Was the question not simple enough, let me repeat it...what for and why do you pray?
you went on to make some bizarre suggestions. If you have bills, and your income will not cover them, is your suggested approach to pray for money, and refuse to work ? I think I made my position clear from the examples I gave. I would pray to be healed, and I would also go to the doctor. My expectation would be that sometimes I get better, just because not everyone dies every time they are sick, sometimes I get better b/c the doctor gives me medicine, and sometimes I get better in ways that modern medicine cannot explain. In the latter case, my going to the doctor is what provides me with a testimony that has some credibility, because a doctor has told me I cannot be cured of something, or cannot expect to get better as quickly as I did, or whatever. Please start answering my questions at some point. Why does healing exist at all ? How is God glorified in this situation that you keep defending ? If you wouldn't go to the doctor, would you not pray about a financial situation, would you pray and not work, or do you see that sometimes you pray f
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Yeah, that is one view of it, and the one that will be used against them. To me they chose to teach their child to learn to trust in the Lord even in hopeless times, something she will neeed if she had lived. Many things happen in a Christian life. So, I will avoid packaging all under a single "visible result". Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
Problem: they taught their child to only trust in god, and god alone.
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
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