Wisconsin Parents Who Prayed as Daughter Died to Face Murder Charges
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Paul Selormey wrote:
I know you have more difficulties here.
Paul, Do you really believe that? Have you seen it happen (I mean really seen it) or are you just going by what you have been told in the bible? Or are you simply speaking about a persons energy being recycled once they die (The First Law of Thermodynamics)? I guess it comes right down to, if they had simply acted then maybe they would not need to pray for her return.
Yeah, I know I was going to invoke some law :) It is all over. Even here in Japan, where there seems to be no Christians. The truth is, you only hear these stories in the churches. Here is a book by one of them...[^] I could buy and send you a copy, if you will not mind. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Does it ? I just copied and pasted the meaning of the word, I think it's pretty clear to me. Tempting and testing are basically the same thing.
Hmmm, I guess you might wish to take a second look or let me paste the full text for you.
Christian Graus wrote:
No, the Bible doesn't say that. It says we are tempted by our own lusts. Satan is not required.
Matt. 4:1 "Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil." I guess that only applies to Jesus and not us.
Christian Graus wrote:
Yes, all of the Old Testament happened to teach us things about the nature of God. It doesn't follow to assume that God lets children die to teach us things in the New, especially not when it's not God, but a parent who decides to deny medical care.
I guess, He became new in the New Testament or His ways or He changed. And any promise in the Old Testament is not valid in the New.
Christian Graus wrote:
Well, I guess that fits with how bizarre your overall position is to me. I was thinking about this...
Was the question not simple enough, let me repeat it...what for and why do you pray? Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
Paul Selormey wrote:
Hmmm, I guess you might wish to take a second look or let me paste the full text for you.
Please do explain how you rationalise this.
Paul Selormey wrote:
I guess that only applies to Jesus and not us.
Well, I guess so, unless Satan leads you into the wilderness, and speaks to you. I quoted the Bible - God is not tempted, neither tempts he any man, but we are drawn away by our own lusts and enticed.
Paul Selormey wrote:
I guess, He became new in the New Testament or His ways or He changed.
I did not say that, and you know it. I said that the OT happened for a reason, and that reason was not to suggest that anyting He did while dealing with one person, such as Abraham, who was the cornerstone of His plan for Israel, is an example of how we'd expect God to deal with all people, in any circumstance.
Paul Selormey wrote:
And any promise in the Old Testament is not valid in the New.
Any promise made to Israel certainly does not guarentee to flow to the New, we have new and better promises, not the same ones given to a specific nation.
Paul Selormey wrote:
Was the question not simple enough, let me repeat it...what for and why do you pray?
you went on to make some bizarre suggestions. If you have bills, and your income will not cover them, is your suggested approach to pray for money, and refuse to work ? I think I made my position clear from the examples I gave. I would pray to be healed, and I would also go to the doctor. My expectation would be that sometimes I get better, just because not everyone dies every time they are sick, sometimes I get better b/c the doctor gives me medicine, and sometimes I get better in ways that modern medicine cannot explain. In the latter case, my going to the doctor is what provides me with a testimony that has some credibility, because a doctor has told me I cannot be cured of something, or cannot expect to get better as quickly as I did, or whatever. Please start answering my questions at some point. Why does healing exist at all ? How is God glorified in this situation that you keep defending ? If you wouldn't go to the doctor, would you not pray about a financial situation, would you pray and not work, or do you see that sometimes you pray f
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Yeah, that is one view of it, and the one that will be used against them. To me they chose to teach their child to learn to trust in the Lord even in hopeless times, something she will neeed if she had lived. Many things happen in a Christian life. So, I will avoid packaging all under a single "visible result". Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
Problem: they taught their child to only trust in god, and god alone.
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
blog: TDD - the Aha! | Linkify!| FoldWithUs! | sighist -
Yeah, I know I was going to invoke some law :) It is all over. Even here in Japan, where there seems to be no Christians. The truth is, you only hear these stories in the churches. Here is a book by one of them...[^] I could buy and send you a copy, if you will not mind. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
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Yeah, I know I was going to invoke some law :) It is all over. Even here in Japan, where there seems to be no Christians. The truth is, you only hear these stories in the churches. Here is a book by one of them...[^] I could buy and send you a copy, if you will not mind. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
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Paul Selormey wrote:
Hmmm, I guess you might wish to take a second look or let me paste the full text for you.
Please do explain how you rationalise this.
Paul Selormey wrote:
I guess that only applies to Jesus and not us.
Well, I guess so, unless Satan leads you into the wilderness, and speaks to you. I quoted the Bible - God is not tempted, neither tempts he any man, but we are drawn away by our own lusts and enticed.
Paul Selormey wrote:
I guess, He became new in the New Testament or His ways or He changed.
I did not say that, and you know it. I said that the OT happened for a reason, and that reason was not to suggest that anyting He did while dealing with one person, such as Abraham, who was the cornerstone of His plan for Israel, is an example of how we'd expect God to deal with all people, in any circumstance.
Paul Selormey wrote:
And any promise in the Old Testament is not valid in the New.
Any promise made to Israel certainly does not guarentee to flow to the New, we have new and better promises, not the same ones given to a specific nation.
Paul Selormey wrote:
Was the question not simple enough, let me repeat it...what for and why do you pray?
you went on to make some bizarre suggestions. If you have bills, and your income will not cover them, is your suggested approach to pray for money, and refuse to work ? I think I made my position clear from the examples I gave. I would pray to be healed, and I would also go to the doctor. My expectation would be that sometimes I get better, just because not everyone dies every time they are sick, sometimes I get better b/c the doctor gives me medicine, and sometimes I get better in ways that modern medicine cannot explain. In the latter case, my going to the doctor is what provides me with a testimony that has some credibility, because a doctor has told me I cannot be cured of something, or cannot expect to get better as quickly as I did, or whatever. Please start answering my questions at some point. Why does healing exist at all ? How is God glorified in this situation that you keep defending ? If you wouldn't go to the doctor, would you not pray about a financial situation, would you pray and not work, or do you see that sometimes you pray f
Christian Graus wrote:
Please do explain how you rationalise this.
(2) "to test, try, prove," in a good sense, said of Christ and of believers, Hbr 2:18, where the context shows that the temptation was the cause of suffering to Him, and only suffering, not a drawing away to sin, so that believers have the sympathy of Christ as their High Priest in the suffering which sin occasions to those who are in the enjoyment of communion with God; so in the similar passage in Hbr 4:15; in all the temptations which Christ endured, there was nothing within Him that answered to sin. There was no sinful infirmity in Him. While He was truly man, and His Divine nature was not in any way inconsistent with His Manhood, there was nothing in Him such as is produced in us by the sinful nature which belongs to us; in Hbr 11:37, of the testing of OT saints; in 1Cr 10:13, where the meaning has a wide scope, the verb is used of "testing" as permitted by God, and of the believer as one who should be in the realization of his own helplessness and his dependence upon God (See PROVE, TRY); in a bad sense, "to tempt"
Christian Graus wrote:
Well, I guess so, unless Satan leads you into the wilderness, and speaks to you.
I guess you are right, you can only be tempted in the wilderness and by Satan speaking to you.
Christian Graus wrote:
Any promise made to Israel certainly does not guarentee to flow to the New, we have new and better promises, not the same ones given to a specific nation.
You mean to say all promises in the old testament are fulfilled and has nothing to do with us.
Christian Graus wrote:
you went on to make some bizarre suggestions.
I thought it was not suggestions but a question. As a Christian, if you do not know why you pray, I leave you to declare it bizarre suggestions.
Christian Graus wrote:
Please start answering my questions at some point.
I thought before writing this you will have answered mine. Let me take them...
Christian Graus wrote:
Why does healing exist at all ?
I guess you mean why He heals us. Because God loves us, and love to see our joy full. Unhealthy body is not a joyful one. He heals us to let us know He is God and has power of sickness.
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I guess she was baptised, would it be more of a crime in your eyes if she wasn't?
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
I do not know which part of my post you were responding to, but I think this will help... Baptism, does not make you a Christian. Like many other Christian activities or stage, you became a Christian and is baptized. I know you have seen the Catholics and related baptized babies, who do not even know why they were being baptized, but I can tell you there is no Biblical bases for it. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
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Yeah, that is one view of it, and the one that will be used against them. To me they chose to teach their child to learn to trust in the Lord even in hopeless times, something she will neeed if she had lived. Many things happen in a Christian life. So, I will avoid packaging all under a single "visible result". Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
So if I chose to strap a bomb to my chest, and kill hundreds of people: to him all the glory? What kind of a fucking nut job are you!?
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
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Problem: they taught their child to only trust in god, and god alone.
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
blog: TDD - the Aha! | Linkify!| FoldWithUs! | sighistHmmm, difficult to explain. I trust God and God alone. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
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So if I chose to strap a bomb to my chest, and kill hundreds of people: to him all the glory? What kind of a fucking nut job are you!?
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
So if I chose to strap a bomb to my chest, and kill hundreds of people: to him all the glory?
Please, my God did not ask me to strap bomb on my chest and kill people He loved. You may have to ask those who do or believe that who their God is. I am a Christian, if that is not obvious. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
So if I chose to strap a bomb to my chest, and kill hundreds of people: to him all the glory?
Please, my God did not ask me to strap bomb on my chest and kill people He loved. You may have to ask those who do or believe that who their God is. I am a Christian, if that is not obvious. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about me, or anyone else for that matter, that could possibly receive a message from god, that demands suicide bombing. Your reasoning is flawed, as it allows for you to do any action, depending solely on what the voice in your head tells you.
Paul Selormey wrote:
I am a Christian, if that is not obvious.
That matters little to me. You show the same symptoms as anyone else of any other religion.
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
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I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about me, or anyone else for that matter, that could possibly receive a message from god, that demands suicide bombing. Your reasoning is flawed, as it allows for you to do any action, depending solely on what the voice in your head tells you.
Paul Selormey wrote:
I am a Christian, if that is not obvious.
That matters little to me. You show the same symptoms as anyone else of any other religion.
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about me, or anyone else for that matter, that could possibly receive a message from god, that demands suicide bombing.
Sorry, it came to my mail box, so I thought it was directed to me. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Please do explain how you rationalise this.
(2) "to test, try, prove," in a good sense, said of Christ and of believers, Hbr 2:18, where the context shows that the temptation was the cause of suffering to Him, and only suffering, not a drawing away to sin, so that believers have the sympathy of Christ as their High Priest in the suffering which sin occasions to those who are in the enjoyment of communion with God; so in the similar passage in Hbr 4:15; in all the temptations which Christ endured, there was nothing within Him that answered to sin. There was no sinful infirmity in Him. While He was truly man, and His Divine nature was not in any way inconsistent with His Manhood, there was nothing in Him such as is produced in us by the sinful nature which belongs to us; in Hbr 11:37, of the testing of OT saints; in 1Cr 10:13, where the meaning has a wide scope, the verb is used of "testing" as permitted by God, and of the believer as one who should be in the realization of his own helplessness and his dependence upon God (See PROVE, TRY); in a bad sense, "to tempt"
Christian Graus wrote:
Well, I guess so, unless Satan leads you into the wilderness, and speaks to you.
I guess you are right, you can only be tempted in the wilderness and by Satan speaking to you.
Christian Graus wrote:
Any promise made to Israel certainly does not guarentee to flow to the New, we have new and better promises, not the same ones given to a specific nation.
You mean to say all promises in the old testament are fulfilled and has nothing to do with us.
Christian Graus wrote:
you went on to make some bizarre suggestions.
I thought it was not suggestions but a question. As a Christian, if you do not know why you pray, I leave you to declare it bizarre suggestions.
Christian Graus wrote:
Please start answering my questions at some point.
I thought before writing this you will have answered mine. Let me take them...
Christian Graus wrote:
Why does healing exist at all ?
I guess you mean why He heals us. Because God loves us, and love to see our joy full. Unhealthy body is not a joyful one. He heals us to let us know He is God and has power of sickness.
1Cr 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it]. Exactly the sort of verse I would point to. Christians are not tempted by God, or even tempted by the Devil, or in any other way tempted especially. We suffer the same temptations that all people go through. The word, of course, means trials.
Paul Selormey wrote:
I guess you are right, you can only be tempted in the wilderness and by Satan speaking to you.
You're the one who drew the parallel. I think we've established from the Bible that we're not especially tempted at all, we suffer the same trials anyone else suffers. The difference is not that God tempts us, but that He makes a way out.
Paul Selormey wrote:
You mean to say all promises in the old testament are fulfilled and has nothing to do with us.
No, not all the OT promises have been fulfilled yet.
Paul Selormey wrote:
As a Christian, if you do not know why you pray, I leave you to declare it bizarre suggestions.
I assume your suggestions were meant to indicate what you thought I was saying. I guess if you pulled them out of thin air, then that's fair enough. I know that a Christian knows that he doesn't know what to pray for, tho, that's why the Spirit intercedes in prayer.
Paul Selormey wrote:
you will have answered mine
I thought I had ?
Paul Selormey wrote:
I guess you mean why He heals us.
I agree with your answer in part, but I think that healing of the body, being temporal, exists as a pointer to the existance of more permanent/eternal healing. That is, by healing cancer in someone who goes on to die of *something* anyhow, God is showing a sign to those who will hear that He can do even better - give eternal life.
Paul Selormey wrote:
I do not know His plan for this situation, neither do I think it is complete yet
OK - I'm not so super spiritual as to try to defend any situation that involves people who believe in God, or to con myself that there is glory for God in a situation where an 11 year old girl is allowed t
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It's like the story about the man who clung to his roof in a flood, in the early stages the police told him to leave he said he trusted the lord, when a boat came and offered help he said he trusted the lord, when the helicopter came he said he trusted the lord, and he drowned. When he got to the pearly gates he was angry and demanded to see the boss and the lord said "but I sent a policeman to warn you, I sent a boat and a helicopter and you ignored them all". Surely it is not too much for believers to believe that doctors and hospitals are god's work, or do you believe that are they aligned with the other side??
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
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Christian Graus wrote:
What happened to common sense ?
It was stabbed in the back by True Believers of every hue and cry, defending their right to slash and burn until there's nothing left of civil discourse.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Ray Cassick wrote:
Their beliefs end at tip of their nose. They have no right to impose their beliefs on another that way.
Just to find out, is this you considered belief? Or is there some way in which your belief has more validity than theirs?
Learn to write self marginalizing code! Call 1-888-BAD-CODE ------------------ Silver member by constant and unflinching longevity.
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1Cr 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it]. Exactly the sort of verse I would point to. Christians are not tempted by God, or even tempted by the Devil, or in any other way tempted especially. We suffer the same temptations that all people go through. The word, of course, means trials.
Paul Selormey wrote:
I guess you are right, you can only be tempted in the wilderness and by Satan speaking to you.
You're the one who drew the parallel. I think we've established from the Bible that we're not especially tempted at all, we suffer the same trials anyone else suffers. The difference is not that God tempts us, but that He makes a way out.
Paul Selormey wrote:
You mean to say all promises in the old testament are fulfilled and has nothing to do with us.
No, not all the OT promises have been fulfilled yet.
Paul Selormey wrote:
As a Christian, if you do not know why you pray, I leave you to declare it bizarre suggestions.
I assume your suggestions were meant to indicate what you thought I was saying. I guess if you pulled them out of thin air, then that's fair enough. I know that a Christian knows that he doesn't know what to pray for, tho, that's why the Spirit intercedes in prayer.
Paul Selormey wrote:
you will have answered mine
I thought I had ?
Paul Selormey wrote:
I guess you mean why He heals us.
I agree with your answer in part, but I think that healing of the body, being temporal, exists as a pointer to the existance of more permanent/eternal healing. That is, by healing cancer in someone who goes on to die of *something* anyhow, God is showing a sign to those who will hear that He can do even better - give eternal life.
Paul Selormey wrote:
I do not know His plan for this situation, neither do I think it is complete yet
OK - I'm not so super spiritual as to try to defend any situation that involves people who believe in God, or to con myself that there is glory for God in a situation where an 11 year old girl is allowed t
Christian Graus wrote:
Christians are not tempted by God, or even tempted by the Devil...
First, I never said God tempts, that is why I have spent so much time to let you accept the difference b/n tempt and test - since it make so much difference. So, the Bible saying Jesus was tempted by Satan was a special case, it never happens to human? Being "common to man" is as simple as that. I and the unbeliever have access to pornography, he/she may not see anything wrong with it (she/he is already in sin), but I will sin if I touch it. The sinful world and the holy world are different, if I sin I move from the holy to the sinful. At least we know who governs each worlds.
Christian Graus wrote:
situation where an 11 year old girl is allowed to die for no good reason.
You kept repeating this thing as if the parent intentionally did it, I trying and praying for you to come out this state, because it is dangerous.
Christian Graus wrote:
I know enough to know that His plan is for life, not death. His plan had nothing to do with what happened here.
Please read Matthew 16:24-27, it has nothing to do with our current physical life.
Christian Graus wrote:
This implies that those who deny their children medicine, have more faith. I disagree.
As a Christian, I should live by faith (Hab 2:4, Rom 1:17, Gal 3:11, Heb 10:38). If by my faith, I should go to the hospital, that is mine and God never expects all to have the same faith, and I will not use mine to judge all. In my current church, the Pastor have been to hospital many times, but the wife will not - they both understand what they are doing.
Christian Graus wrote:
I'm sorry, but to me, this is a bunch of high flying reigiousity that ignores my question.
Which part is really still not answered? Please state it, and if you want yes or not answer say so.
Christian Graus wrote:
This is a tragedy for the child, for the testimony of the church and, yes, for the parents. That they are sad, does not defend their ignorance or their actions.
I thought you understood the verse you quoted at the start. To a Christian, there is no tragedy, we have God who is in control of all our situations. Even physical death to a
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I do not know which part of my post you were responding to, but I think this will help... Baptism, does not make you a Christian. Like many other Christian activities or stage, you became a Christian and is baptized. I know you have seen the Catholics and related baptized babies, who do not even know why they were being baptized, but I can tell you there is no Biblical bases for it. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
I'm sure that you will correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding of christianity is that some form of baptism or acceptance into the church is necessary in order to get to heaven. You seem to be taking some solace in the fact that this child is now with god, my point was what if she was never baptised and/or never accepted god? There is no mention of this in the article as it is not important for the legal case, but I thought it may affect your argument. Hopefully they did not show the same disregard for the safety of her soul as they may have for her body. If she never accepted god then she may not be in the happy place you assume.
Peter "Until the invention of the computer, the machine gun was the device that enabled humans to make the most mistakes in the smallest amount of time."
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Ray Cassick wrote:
Good. Their beliefs end at tip of their nose. They have no right to impose their beliefs on another that way. Really bad way to die.
I much doubt that you would say "Their beliefs end at tip of their nose. They have no right to impose their beliefs on another that way" or "Really bad way to die" in regard to death of a human being by abortion. Am I wrong on this?
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Crap, they chose to prevent her receiving treatment.
Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.
Trollslayer wrote:
Crap, they chose to prevent her receiving treatment.
And, your point is? How, EXACTLY, do YOU have standing to condemn them on this? Perhaps I'm misremembering, but are you not an 'atheist?' So, if I am not misremembering, what is your basis for saying that their actions are wrong?