Wisconsin Parents Who Prayed as Daughter Died to Face Murder Charges
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Just to clarify my meaning : God makes promises, and He does things that are real, in this life. We can test God, if by that you mean, to trust in His promises and act as if we expect them to be kept. But, if we mean, as Paul seems to be saying, to avoid solutions that exist to our problems, to create difficulty and then look for God to resolve them, we can't do that. That's what Jesus said to Satan, and I don't get how that was so quickly swept under the carpet in the conversation that ensued.
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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Frightening... :P
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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Frightening... :P
Christian Graus Please read this if you don't understand the answer I've given you "also I don't think "TranslateOneToTwoBillion OneHundredAndFortySevenMillion FourHundredAndEightyThreeThousand SixHundredAndFortySeven()" is a very good choice for a function name" - SpacixOne ( offering help to someone who really needed it ) ( spaces added for the benefit of people running at < 1280x1024 )
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The best thing they can do is stop fucking and let god determine if they should have any more children
Josh Gray wrote:
The best thing they can do is stop f***ing and let god determine if they should have any more children
I like the way you reason. :-D :-D :-D
John Carson
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Trollslayer wrote:
Crap, they chose to prevent her receiving treatment.
And, your point is? How, EXACTLY, do YOU have standing to condemn them on this? Perhaps I'm misremembering, but are you not an 'atheist?' So, if I am not misremembering, what is your basis for saying that their actions are wrong?
Ilíon wrote:
How, EXACTLY, do YOU have standing to condemn them on this? Perhaps I'm misremembering, but are you not an 'atheist?' So, if I am not misremembering, what is your basis for saying that their actions are wrong?
The same basis as everyone, including you. Her personal belief system. The fact that you imagine that you have more basis than that doesn't change the facts.
John Carson
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Ray Cassick wrote:
Good.
What, that she died? I know that will be a welcomed news to many. It is sad to hear of the death, but one thing is clear the Giver of life has the right over life - He gives and He takes, to Him be all the Glory. I will not condemn them, we all go through stages in our Christian life, we have challenges, and with some we fail. Even though going to hospital is not a guarantee for cure, the parents still have to obey the laws of their country.
Ray Cassick wrote:
Really bad way to die.
I just hope we really feel the same way about aborted babies. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
God doesn't care about kids. 2 Kings 2:23-24[^] 23And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them. Interesting indeed...
Drawing on my fine command of language, I said nothing.
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peterchen wrote:
I could accept an "When in doubt, trust god", but this permanent "doubt everyone but god" is - in my eyes - completely antisocial.
That is why I said it is difficult to explain. As someone put it, Is He your God or your dog? The "when in doubt, trust God", put you first before God, in other words, He is your dog. Let me give you some illustrations.... I have a car that I drive to so many problems to get a work done and a long way to church. I do not trust the car or my driving skill for safety but God for my safety. My car tyre may burst (even the maker will not guarantee that), I may make mistakes in my driving decisions (I am a human, perfect), so I put my trust in the Lord because He said in all situation He will protect me. When the tyre burst, He is there, when I make mistakes, He is there. I do not "doubt everyone" as try to paint. I trust God for everyone. I trust God for the woman I will marry, He will help her put up with my weaknesses and help me accept her as who He created, not the "perfect woman" I have being looking for (He the creator, understands her better than me). He will help me to love her in all situations, and vice versa. I will not say, I always put God first in all my decisions but that is my desire, goal and the level I am working to reach. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
Paul Selormey wrote:
I have a car that I drive to so many problems to get a work done and a long way to church. I do not trust the car or my driving skill for safety but God for my safety.
But, you do not sit at home, and pray that you reach the place you intend to go to? You still drive your car. I would think that visiting a doctor to get an opinion would not have been a blow to their faith.
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Paul Selormey wrote:
I have a car that I drive to so many problems to get a work done and a long way to church. I do not trust the car or my driving skill for safety but God for my safety.
But, you do not sit at home, and pray that you reach the place you intend to go to? You still drive your car. I would think that visiting a doctor to get an opinion would not have been a blow to their faith.
Thomas George wrote:
I would think that visiting a doctor to get an opinion would not have been a blow to their faith.
No, not at all, and I do not think they considered it that way. Best regards, Paul.
Jesus Christ is LOVE! Please tell somebody.
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Ilíon wrote:
How, EXACTLY, do YOU have standing to condemn them on this? Perhaps I'm misremembering, but are you not an 'atheist?' So, if I am not misremembering, what is your basis for saying that their actions are wrong?
The same basis as everyone, including you. Her personal belief system. The fact that you imagine that you have more basis than that doesn't change the facts.
John Carson
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You know... I KNEW I should have not even bothered to reply to you... I just KNEW that you would respond with some drivel... I have to say this... you don't disappoint. You mistake 'property' with 'responsibility'. She is their responsibility to care for and protect. She is NOT their property to do with as they please. As a sentient and living human being she has rights human rights. If children were property to do with as the parents please then child sexual abuse could not be a crime. Just like in the years ago when wives had no legal recourse to say they were raped by their husbands. Now, go on... you know you want to... spew some more useless drivel...
I must say, I have never heard the use of the word 'property' to describe a fetus. When did that start being used? What is the basis for calling the fetus a property of the mother? At what time is the fetus no longer consider to be property? Where is the line between property and responsibility? Do you have kids, and if so? Do you view them as property or responsibility? Honestly, I am not trying to spark a flame war. I do not see any real good foundation in the idea of calling a fetus the property of the mother.
God Bless, Jason
I am not perfect but I try to be better than those before me. So those who come after me will be better than I am. -
I must say, I have never heard the use of the word 'property' to describe a fetus. When did that start being used? What is the basis for calling the fetus a property of the mother? At what time is the fetus no longer consider to be property? Where is the line between property and responsibility? Do you have kids, and if so? Do you view them as property or responsibility? Honestly, I am not trying to spark a flame war. I do not see any real good foundation in the idea of calling a fetus the property of the mother.
God Bless, Jason
I am not perfect but I try to be better than those before me. So those who come after me will be better than I am.Normally I don't reply to threads that are this old but...
jason_lakewhitney hen did that start being used?
Not soon enough. I use it, always have, but it has not been seen as a popular thought YET. <blockquote class="FQ"><div class="FQA"> jason_lakewhitney </d wrote:</div>What is the basis for calling the fetus a property of the mother? At what time is the fetus no longer consider to be property?</blockquote> A fetus is the property of the mother until such time as it can no longer medically survive without being connected to her system. I am not talking about general care here (ie: food, shelter, etc...) but rather medically viable. At the point when a fetus can be removed (natural or otherwise) and medically survive outside its mother without being connected to a respirator or other medical equipment, it is (should be in my opinion) considered property. Just like our organs are our property (we can decide to remove them or donate them if we want).
jason_lakewhitney here is the line between property and responsibility?
I have already defined property. Responsibility comes as part of being a parent. You have a responsibility to take care of your child. That responsibility is to ensure that it has the opportunity to survive and become what it can be. Your responsibility is to support it and care for it, to ensure that it has a chance to live once it is born.
jason_lakewhitney o you have kids, and if so? Do you view them as property or responsibility?
Yes, I do have a child. My wife and I planned him and we care for him. He is no longer property (he was born) and we have a deep feeling of responsibility towards him to ensure that he can be the best as what he wants to be. I have a responsibility to ensure that he is safe and lives. NOT to impose any religious beliefs on him. I am responsible to fill him with a sense of what is legally right and wrong so he can exist in today's society as a productive citizen. I have a responsibility to expose him to as much as he can be exposed to so that he has opportunities to learn all that he can and make choices for him self. While I will always care for him and feel a sense of responsibility for him there will come a time when I have to let him go out into the world and be his own person and hope that I have instilled en
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Normally I don't reply to threads that are this old but...
jason_lakewhitney hen did that start being used?
Not soon enough. I use it, always have, but it has not been seen as a popular thought YET. <blockquote class="FQ"><div class="FQA"> jason_lakewhitney </d wrote:</div>What is the basis for calling the fetus a property of the mother? At what time is the fetus no longer consider to be property?</blockquote> A fetus is the property of the mother until such time as it can no longer medically survive without being connected to her system. I am not talking about general care here (ie: food, shelter, etc...) but rather medically viable. At the point when a fetus can be removed (natural or otherwise) and medically survive outside its mother without being connected to a respirator or other medical equipment, it is (should be in my opinion) considered property. Just like our organs are our property (we can decide to remove them or donate them if we want).
jason_lakewhitney here is the line between property and responsibility?
I have already defined property. Responsibility comes as part of being a parent. You have a responsibility to take care of your child. That responsibility is to ensure that it has the opportunity to survive and become what it can be. Your responsibility is to support it and care for it, to ensure that it has a chance to live once it is born.
jason_lakewhitney o you have kids, and if so? Do you view them as property or responsibility?
Yes, I do have a child. My wife and I planned him and we care for him. He is no longer property (he was born) and we have a deep feeling of responsibility towards him to ensure that he can be the best as what he wants to be. I have a responsibility to ensure that he is safe and lives. NOT to impose any religious beliefs on him. I am responsible to fill him with a sense of what is legally right and wrong so he can exist in today's society as a productive citizen. I have a responsibility to expose him to as much as he can be exposed to so that he has opportunities to learn all that he can and make choices for him self. While I will always care for him and feel a sense of responsibility for him there will come a time when I have to let him go out into the world and be his own person and hope that I have instilled en
No witty reply and no sarcasm, thank you for a mature answer. Sometimes, it can be dangerous to ask a question here. That is one of the main reasons why I don't do anything here anymore. Today was the first time I had visited this site in a while and you post was interesting to me.
Ray Cassick wrote:
A fetus is the property of the mother until such time as it can no longer medically survive without being connected to her system.
I guess for I consider it a responsibility from the moment of conception. Well, at least from the time you find out about it.
Ray Cassick wrote:
NOT to impose any religious beliefs on him.
Do you impose or impress any beliefs on him? If so, do you impose political, social, educational, or even lifestyle beliefs.
Ray Cassick wrote:
We will see
I believe people can have conversation even when they don't agree or see eye to eye. And doing so without debating or raising the flags of war.
Ray Cassick wrote:
I am not here to try to convert you over to my ideals
Didn't take it that way and I hope you haven't felt threaten for me asking.
Ray Cassick wrote:
It is completely your option to dismiss them as drivel or to understand that they are my opinions and at least honour that.
I am a Christian and I make no assumptions of your religious beliefs if any. Your opinions are yours and mine are mine. So I don't understand why people can't get that simply little concept. You don't have to reply if you don't want to.
God Bless, Jason
I am not perfect but I try to be better than those before me. So those who come after me will be better than I am. -
No witty reply and no sarcasm, thank you for a mature answer. Sometimes, it can be dangerous to ask a question here. That is one of the main reasons why I don't do anything here anymore. Today was the first time I had visited this site in a while and you post was interesting to me.
Ray Cassick wrote:
A fetus is the property of the mother until such time as it can no longer medically survive without being connected to her system.
I guess for I consider it a responsibility from the moment of conception. Well, at least from the time you find out about it.
Ray Cassick wrote:
NOT to impose any religious beliefs on him.
Do you impose or impress any beliefs on him? If so, do you impose political, social, educational, or even lifestyle beliefs.
Ray Cassick wrote:
We will see
I believe people can have conversation even when they don't agree or see eye to eye. And doing so without debating or raising the flags of war.
Ray Cassick wrote:
I am not here to try to convert you over to my ideals
Didn't take it that way and I hope you haven't felt threaten for me asking.
Ray Cassick wrote:
It is completely your option to dismiss them as drivel or to understand that they are my opinions and at least honour that.
I am a Christian and I make no assumptions of your religious beliefs if any. Your opinions are yours and mine are mine. So I don't understand why people can't get that simply little concept. You don't have to reply if you don't want to.
God Bless, Jason
I am not perfect but I try to be better than those before me. So those who come after me will be better than I am.jason_lakewhitney o you impose or impress any beliefs on him? If so, do you impose political, social, educational, or even lifestyle beliefs.
Hmmm. Impose? Yeah, I guess I do. he has to be aware of and obey the laws. We have discussions about politics but I impose no direction with regards to affiliation. Only that the political process is his to participate in or risk loosing. As far as social goes, I make sure that he understands that people are different and to not be influenced by race or color (or religion) and to give everyone a cautious chance, but he seems to be too trusting in some manners and that scares me a bit. As far as education goes I have to admit that I am heavily biased there and we have had many talks (as we have had with his teachers) on how I feel about the educational system in general. I try to instill on him that he has the most direction over his life, that he is responsible for learning what he needs to survive and that he has to understand that learning can never stop. With regards to lifestyle... drinking is off limits until he is of legal age, drugs are not tolerated at all (legal issue again) and as far as other things he knows that I will love him no matter what because he is my son. I have told him that I may not always LIKE him, the direction he takes and the life he leads as he grows up, but what matters most is how he feels about himself and those close to him and that I will always be here if he needs me.
jason_lakewhitney idn't take it that way and I hope you haven't felt threaten for me asking.
I have to admit that I feel a bit gun shy about discussing these matters with people here that clearly have a religious persuasion, especially since I can't remember if you and I have ever spoken before, so... But you seem open and respectful and I thank you for that.
jason_lakewhitney am a Christian and I make no assumptions of your religious beliefs if any. Your opinions are yours and mine are mine. So I don't understand why people can't get that simply little concept.
My god is science. I have to admit that yours is a refreshing viewpoint. I have not run into many Christians that are willing to admit that it is OK for people to have their own opinions. I am OK with religion as long as it is treated as a personal thing. I don't mean that you are not free to practice it
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jason_lakewhitney o you impose or impress any beliefs on him? If so, do you impose political, social, educational, or even lifestyle beliefs.
Hmmm. Impose? Yeah, I guess I do. he has to be aware of and obey the laws. We have discussions about politics but I impose no direction with regards to affiliation. Only that the political process is his to participate in or risk loosing. As far as social goes, I make sure that he understands that people are different and to not be influenced by race or color (or religion) and to give everyone a cautious chance, but he seems to be too trusting in some manners and that scares me a bit. As far as education goes I have to admit that I am heavily biased there and we have had many talks (as we have had with his teachers) on how I feel about the educational system in general. I try to instill on him that he has the most direction over his life, that he is responsible for learning what he needs to survive and that he has to understand that learning can never stop. With regards to lifestyle... drinking is off limits until he is of legal age, drugs are not tolerated at all (legal issue again) and as far as other things he knows that I will love him no matter what because he is my son. I have told him that I may not always LIKE him, the direction he takes and the life he leads as he grows up, but what matters most is how he feels about himself and those close to him and that I will always be here if he needs me.
jason_lakewhitney idn't take it that way and I hope you haven't felt threaten for me asking.
I have to admit that I feel a bit gun shy about discussing these matters with people here that clearly have a religious persuasion, especially since I can't remember if you and I have ever spoken before, so... But you seem open and respectful and I thank you for that.
jason_lakewhitney am a Christian and I make no assumptions of your religious beliefs if any. Your opinions are yours and mine are mine. So I don't understand why people can't get that simply little concept.
My god is science. I have to admit that yours is a refreshing viewpoint. I have not run into many Christians that are willing to admit that it is OK for people to have their own opinions. I am OK with religion as long as it is treated as a personal thing. I don't mean that you are not free to practice it
Ray Cassick wrote:
Hmmm........he needs me.
You a raising your son on your beliefs and it sounds like you have him on the right track. As funny as this might sound, I am not a 'religious' person. Religion kills and destroys people. I have a belief system, just as you, but mine is based on my faith in Christ and the things found in the Bible. As a Christian, I believe I am to live out my faith and not 'brow beat' it into people. Granted, I will share my faith with others and explain how according to the Bible what sin is but I will not call someone a sinner or even pass judgment on someone for the lack of knowledge of the Bible. But in the end, it is a individual decision to believe in the Bible or not.
Ray Cassick wrote:
I have to admit that I feel a bit gun shy about discussing these matters with people here that clearly have a religious persuasion, especially since I can't remember if you and I have ever spoken before, so... But you seem open and respectful and I thank you for that.
I don't believe we have ever talked. Like I said before, I quit getting on this site because it was far to much 'anti-Christian'. What I mean is that the constant bashing of my faith and cursing and making fun of my God, just got old. I enjoy conversation and some debates about many different subjects. But when I am getting dogged because I say 'God Bless' at the end, it just sad.
Ray Cassick wrote:
My god is science. I have to admit.........where to start on that.
According to the Bible we are all created with this 'hole' in our heart and soul that is meant to be filled by God. As we go through our lives, we feel this 'hole' and have a desire to fill it. So to get to the point, you said science is your god. We all have a god in our lives whether it is the right one. I guess that is what we found through time. Science has helped many people and explained many things but I don't believe science can ever explain spiritual matters and concerns. I have a son too and my signature is for him. "I am not perfect(me as I am) but I try to be better than those before me(my father and the areas that lacked in). So those who come after me will be better than I am(my short coming and the areas I lack in). I must say, it has been a pleasure to have a descent and mature conversation. Thank you.
God Bless, Jason